Gentoo leaves democracy

mv · Watchman Joined: 20 Apr 2005 Posts: 6780

Perhaps not everybody here is following dev-ml regularly.

So I feel the need to make public here that it was practically decided to destroy democracy in gentoo:
Allow write access to dev-ml only to developers and perhaps to a few explicitly allowed by developers.

This is not about moderation or filtering spam (which so far never was a serious problem on that list) but about completely taking away non-developers the voice to be able to be involved with developers decisions.
Background is clearly that some developers do not want to be criticized anymore. (The "attacker" being the cause of this has left dev-ml, but this seems to play no role for the decision).

The decision has already been made by the council and is already going into technical implementation.
The non-democratic tendencies which came with certain developers in the previous years have won.

For me, this is enough: I will probably switch distribution (hence stopping any explicit or implicit support of gentoo) when the policy really gets in force, and I hope that I will not be the only one.

Ant P. · Watchman Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Posts: 6920

Ah, more ML drama... must be a day ending in -y again. There's a good reason I've never gone near those in the past dozen years.

bunder · Bodhisattva Joined: 10 Apr 2004 Posts: 5939

you still have gentoo-user

you still have irc (unless you're banned like i am)

you still have bgo (unless you're ignored like i am)

you still have fgo (for now)

/shrug

edit: thanks for the new sig neddy
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mv · Watchman Joined: 20 Apr 2005 Posts: 6780

Juippisi · Developer Joined: 30 Sep 2005 Posts: 757 Location: /home

I dont really care about the politics as long as the distro works. However,

asturm · Developer Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 9320

Naib · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:22 am Post subject:

This isn't really anti democratic... The device ML is for developers to discuss thing. It is still RO for the rest

The only really downside is it could become an echo chamber for like minded ideas. I am thinking libAV as default sort of rubbish. This however was initially discussed on the ML and still occured. It was then countered by users on the forums and bgo
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mv · Watchman Joined: 20 Apr 2005 Posts: 6780

Mr. T. · Guru Joined: 26 Dec 2016 Posts: 477

The list seems to be [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting developer-oriented and expert user mailing lists.

Some members have trouble communicating? The communication between members should be improved!

See also:

Hierarchy of contribution in Open Source

Edit: The main problem is that contributing to Gentoo projects is difficult. Among alternative projects, few have been completed but those projects have resulted in forks.

mv · Watchman Joined: 20 Apr 2005 Posts: 6780

Jaglover · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:44 am Post subject:

Good, democracy sucks.

Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.
—John Adams, 1814
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NeddySeagoon · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:27 am Post subject:

mv,

Gentoo has never ever been a democracy.

In the early years, drobbins was the benevolent dictator, at least if you fitted in he was benevolent.
When drobbins left, the Top Level Project leads, who used to assist in the leadership continued without drobbins.
That failed and the elected council was created as a replacement.

The whole time, Gentoo has moved in the direction its been taken by those doing the work, not by any democratic process.

To reverse the decision, join as a dev and as GLEP 39 used to say "vote the bums out".
That's democracy in action.
Its that very democracy that got us to where we are today.

The problem with leaving is that you can only do it once and it reduces your influence.

Personally, I don't like the move and will be happy to work toward seeing it fail/reversed.
I think it will only serve to make the lists harder to follow as everything will move to -project, then devs will need to read project or only see the tip of the iceberg of the discussion.

I have considered sponsoring users but that's supporting the decision.

So, stick around, try the experiment, post lots on -project, make the experiment fail, join as a dev and "vote the bums out".
It can only be useful if devs whitelist non devs.
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Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

Zucca · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:17 am Post subject:

I don't really follow the ml discussions, but I know it's not a nice move.
But as bunder said, we have many other channels. Is blocking one of them really the end of the journey?

I think bgo is good place to suggest improvements. Sadly, it seems more of an rule that "radical" ideas for improvements on bug lists (not just Gentoo one) get maked as NOTABUG or WONTFIX. A proper channel for users and devs should be then preserved.

Also dev-ml should stand for development mainling list, NOT developer mailing list. Future will tell which way it is.
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NeddySeagoon · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:50 am Post subject:

Zucca,

I think the -dev ML will wither and die.
Everything will move to -project so that discussions are in one place.
I've seen similar outcomes other places but then, I'm old and cynical.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

mv · Watchman Joined: 20 Apr 2005 Posts: 6780

John R. Graham · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:35 pm Post subject:

szatox · Advocate Joined: 27 Aug 2013 Posts: 3477

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:28 pm Post subject:

mv,

I don't intend to do much. I won't help make it work by white listing anyone.
Well, maybe wiljr, just to see if there is a blacklist too :)

I will vote against the six council members who failed to vote this down.
I might even campaign for others to do the same but voting against something is only useful if there is an alternative to vote for.

I won't stand for council to try to fix it.
a) I don't have the technical skill set
b) I can't afford the personal liability exposure
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

Mr. T. · Guru Joined: 26 Dec 2016 Posts: 477

@John R. Graham: a user must learn complicated processes to perform trivial tasks. Moreover, a user may not receive help and may not have the required qualifications.
A user can be stuck in this situation: learn this and that (complicated stuff) then expose this and wait an answer. No answer! ... Let's try again or try differently.

mv · Watchman Joined: 20 Apr 2005 Posts: 6780

mv · Watchman Joined: 20 Apr 2005 Posts: 6780

@NeddySeagoon: Thank you for your honest reply. It is good to see that Gentoo still has members of honor.

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:00 pm Post subject:

mv,

I stand by my advice earlier, stay around and become a part of the solution.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

Zucca · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:02 pm Post subject:

++
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John R. Graham · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:08 pm Post subject:

++ too.
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John R. Graham · Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:12 pm Post subject: