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CasperVector
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Joined: 03 Apr 2012
Posts: 156
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 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | One can certainly find some subtle syntax corner cases in which C and the C-core of C++ differ (BTW, there are K&R C, Ansi C, ... as well as C++98, C++11, C++14, ...).
But I think this is irrelevant to the C/C++ discussion since these corner cases certainly don't make a compelling feature of one of the languages (unless one speaks about adapting a huge existing code base). |
Yes, major implementations seem to handle most of these corner cases quite nicely, saving programmers lots of headaches: eg. `int main (void) { return 0; }' compiles fine with g++, even with `-Wall -Wextra -Wpedantic'.
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mv
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Joined: 20 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| CasperVector wrote: | | Yes, major implementations seem to handle most of these corner cases quite nicely |
There are quite some cases where this is not possible, see e.g. this summary.
However, as I said: IMHO, this can be a topic if the conversion of an existing huge code base is involved (e.g. linux kernel), but otherwise these differences are not really convincing arguments of one language vs. the other. When deciding about the language for a new project, C is in practice a strict subset of C++, and so there is no reason to restrict to the former. Of course, there might be other reasons not related to the language itself like (lack of) compiler availability on certain systems, compile time, etc.
Also not to forget: The more powerful a language is the simpler it is for an unexperienced programmer to write bad (e.g. write-only) code. Or to mess around with wrong usage of exceptions as was the starting point of the posting... |
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Zucca
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3857
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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I spend around a year using systemd on my "daily driver".
I felt it was still in progress becoming something. I liked the timers it has, but for example the journal logging system is just horrible, imo.
After it started to eat brains (got zombified), I gave up.
I might try it again in 2020 or so... if it's still relevant.
EDIT: I had wrong page on this thread open... I totally posted this in a wrong spot. Oh well...
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Yamakuzure
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Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2305
Location: Adendorf, Germany
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | | EDIT: I had wrong page on this thread open... I totally posted this in a wrong spot. Oh well... |
No, no! I think you posted this in the absolute perfect spot! 
Back on topic, then! 
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VinzC
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Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 5098
Location: Dark side of the mood
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | | The more powerful a language is the simpler it is for an unexperienced programmer to write bad [...] code. |
You might not care less but I couldn't agree more .
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| Yamakuzure wrote: | | I doubt I'll have any time to play around with TIPC soon. Further I doubt that TIPC can automatically start services once they are needed. It seems like TIPC can only support what has been started beforehand. But I didn't really dig into TIPC that deep to be sure of that. |
Jeezus, this is nutty discussion.
"The transport doesn't start services, therefore we cannot use the transport" is wrong-headed on multiple levels.
If I say this is very much akin to the earlier "I don't see how a cluster-based transport can be used for localnode," hopefully a moment's thought will show you what I mean, and we can skip the basic explanations of stuff you already knew. |
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shadywack
n00b
Joined: 30 Aug 2012
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| I like systemd, and I'm thankful there are maintainers who do an excellent job making it available as a choice. For all the discussion about the merits/demerits of systemd, Gentoo offers the choice. |
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 655
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| shadywack wrote: | | I like systemd, and I'm thankful there are maintainers who do an excellent job making it available as a choice. For all the discussion about the merits/demerits of systemd, Gentoo offers the choice. |
but that choice is increasingly less so, given that they keep polluting the non-systemd stuff with choices forced by systemd. |
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proteusx
Guru
Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:18 am Post subject: |
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In the year 313 AD emperor Constantine issued the so called Edict of Milan, whereby
he ordered that the state should cease treating Christianity as
a subversion and accept it as a religion (one of the myriads that existed within the Roman empire at the
time), thus he offered the Romans "more choice" in what they worshiped. But
Christianity was not an ordinary religion. A few years later Christianity alone
became the empire's official religion. Yahweh was supposed to be the one and only god, the true God,
and anyone who thought otherwise was castigated and persecuted. Christianity thus,
became the only choice. Does this story sound familiar? |
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steveL
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Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| proteusx wrote: | | Does this story sound familiar? |
It's a bit of distraction imo; systemdbust is not an all-encompassing way of living life.
systemdbust is merely a dead-end design, one long-familiar to the Computing industry under the moniker "Master Control Program", for which we have the trope "There is no One True Way" to keep us clear. (It has deeper meaning around modality, but that is its primary usage, ime.)
So yes, it's a familiar story (to anyone who's been in Computing since the 1980s or before); only it's nothing like the one/s alluded to.
It is just the usual old story of "Company of spivs tries to con unsuspecting marks^W users."
We don't get surprised when people commit fraud IRL; this attempted theft or fraud -- the "appropriation" of the Commons -- is just as unsurprising, and it will happen again, as it has happened before. |
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proteusx
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:25 am Post subject: |
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It was meant to be a metaphor.
Open source is going through a period of decadence at the moment and systemd totalitarianism is but a symptom of this. |
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Muso
Veteran
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1052
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| proteusx wrote: | | It was meant to be a metaphor. |
I found it to be a good metaphor.
One of the reasons why I switched back to Gentoo on the desktop was because of SystemD. Wanting distro without that Red Hat shovelware that allowed for the installation of a very streamlined system didn't leave too many options. SystemD is so pervasive these days.
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steveL
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| proteusx wrote: | | It was meant to be a metaphor. |
Fair enough; I just wanted to put systemdbust in context. It's a crap piece of software, by design, and all software can be replaced, by definition (that is the point of the original, somewhat artificial distinction from "hardware".) | Quote: | | Open source is going through a period of decadence at the moment and systemd totalitarianism is but a symptom of this. |
IDK about the wider picture (I'm quite happy in my bunker, avoiding crap software in the main.)
WRT religions, ISTR reading that only the mad-crazy ones ever survived, precisely because they could enslave peoples entire lives via the conditioning, and thus served as a "good" basis for conquering other, more relaxed and more civilised nations.
(OFC a Buddhist, a Jew, a Sikh, or a Bah'ai might demur.)
I see the "modern" totalitarian approach as pretty much the same as the old fascism, which is ofc the same principle as the long tradition of slavery^W serfdom: it is better (from the sociopaths' point-of-view) if the conditioning means the slaves keep themselves, and each other, in line.
This has long been shown in sociological work (that I know very little about.) I believe it was first discussed academically in Feminist literature of the 1950s and 1960s, with respect to how women have long been conditioned to keep each other in place.
Better to find your own morality, and your own influences, ime; and avoid monomania, because it is ultimately sterile. |
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6069
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2018-15688
| Quote: |
A buffer overflow vulnerability in the dhcp6 client of systemd allows a malicious dhcp6 server to overwrite heap memory in systemd-networkd. Affected releases are systemd: versions up to and including 239. |
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sao98021
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 03 Apr 2012
Posts: 145
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| i dont have a problem with systemd people, untill i'm forced into using it. which is why i hope openrc will forever be an option here |
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Tony0945
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Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| sao98021 wrote: | | i dont have a problem with systemd people, untill i'm forced into using it. which is why i hope openrc will forever be an option here |
IBM just spent $34 billion for RedHat. I think that spells the end of Linux as a non-proprietary system. You WILL use systemd and you WILL pay IBM for the privilege.
FreeBSD looking better and better. |
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sao98021
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 03 Apr 2012
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Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | sao98021 wrote: | | i dont have a problem with systemd people, untill i'm forced into using it. which is why i hope openrc will forever be an option here |
IBM just spent $34 billion for RedHat. I think that spells the end of Linux as a non-proprietary system. You WILL use systemd and you WILL pay IBM for the privilege.
FreeBSD looking better and better. |
i'd rather just not update, ever again.
that said, i have been on a BSD virtual box journey last few days. |
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Naib
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | sao98021 wrote: | | i dont have a problem with systemd people, untill i'm forced into using it. which is why i hope openrc will forever be an option here |
IBM just spent $34 billion for RedHat. I think that spells the end of Linux as a non-proprietary system. You WILL use systemd and you WILL pay IBM for the privilege.
FreeBSD looking better and better. |
suse has changed hands numerous times and was tight with Microsoft. Being owned by the private sector doesn't force anything. Yes redhat is a massive kernel and glibc contributor but their main revenue is service. It really comes down to what IBM want/need as there will be an internal refocus to meet IBM needs and that could slow down kernel development
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:00 am Post subject: |
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I don't see much changing with IBM acquiring RedHat.
There will be some internal reorganisation, so that IBMs existing Open Source gets moved into Red Hat.
Red Hat makes money from providing services, not selling software. That won't change any time soon.
On the down side, I do see that the trend of systemd becoming a wrapper around the kernel, (like Microsoftland) so that everything talks to systemd and only systemd talks to the kernel, accelerating.
Then we have a private fork of systemd that allows non GPL code to be effectively linked to the kernel, via the systemd wrapper.
Yuck.
I'm not off to BSD yet, nor am I putting any time into evaluating BSD. It will be years to get to that point. Maybe it will never happen?
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:08 am Post subject: |
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I've used bsd before (in the workplace) and it's not that different that sysv, about 90% the same, at least as far as the end user is concerned.
Neddy, re your take on systemd wrapping, I've long had that stance, that they wanted to make linux look like windows (dumbed down for the end user)
by way of making systemd be all that you see (who needs to know anything about that pesky kernel  )
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Naib
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | I don't see much changing with IBM acquiring RedHat.
There will be some internal reorganisation, so that IBMs existing Open Source gets moved into Red Hat.
Red Hat makes money from providing services, not selling software. That won't change any time soon.
On the down side, I do see that the trend of systemd becoming a wrapper around the kernel, (like Microsoftland) so that everything talks to systemd and only systemd talks to the kernel, accelerating.
Then we have a private fork of systemd that allows non GPL code to be effectively linked to the kernel, via the systemd wrapper.
Yuck.
I'm not off to BSD yet, nor am I putting any time into evaluating BSD. It will be years to get to that point. Maybe it will never happen? |
Thing is IBMhave take on a tonne of debt to complete this acquisition. IBM are pulling in money from their legacy install base but are not innovating... No organic growth. It doesnt bode well for a company when it shift to aquisitions for increase in new revenue
This isn't like a strategic aquisition, this is desperation and that has its own issues.
What isant to know is why redhat shareholders agreed? This makes sense to IBM but for RH that were doing ok?
As to the concerns about sysd wrapping the kernel, for cloud services users don't want those worries so unfortunately that make sense for RH and now ibm. As long as the kernel does permit full encapsulation then others can do what they like. It's what sysd pushes into the userland that is more of a concern
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Tony0945
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Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | What isant to know is why redhat shareholders agreed? This makes sense to IBM but for RH that were doing ok? |
IBM paid double the market value for the stock. |
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Naib
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | What i want to know is why redhat shareholders agreed? This makes sense to IBM but for RH that were doing ok? |
IBM paid double the market value for the stock. |
So you are speculating a simple sellout. It maybe as simple as that? RH has had an incredible 18months, their stockprice has doubled in that time. For their shareholders to sellout like this when they potentially would have seen the same ROI in 12-18months is odd... Either the RH board was offered share options to offset this or some other merger deal existed to create the same growth. Yes guaranteed money (be it 66% in debt) is better than the promise in the future but for the loss of control and direction seems odd. This is why I am asking what RH gets out of this.
As I said this is a sign of desperation from IBM, they are unable to innovate in this area or any other and as such the computer industry is now slave to mimicking Facebook,amazon,google rather than differentiating and growing in other area's.
As to the linux ecosystem re. SystemD and RedHats "next gen filesystem" ( Stratis ) well... RH are obviously doing these things because they offer a service, be it SaaS, IaaS ... what they are doing it presenting a platform that is easy for admins to manage multiple instances in a cloud so there is a high chance aspects of these will accelerate in development but how is anyone guess.
I guess we will see in a couple of months what sections will close to start saving and removing redundant functionality
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Tony0945
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Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| I hope IBM gets rid of L.P. |
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roki942
Apprentice
Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 285
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm curious as to how this will tie with IBM's Power chip series. |
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