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asturm
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007
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 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| These use flags are completely irrelevant for your init system choice. Some are superfluous these days and reveal a system with some history. A lot of the flags would be irrelevant with using a desktop profile, but not everyone likes the comfort of that. |
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6069
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | | These use flags are completely irrelevant for your init system choice. Some are superfluous these days and reveal a system with some history. A lot of the flags would be irrelevant with using a desktop profile, but not everyone likes the comfort of that. |
bingo
_________________
#define HelloWorld int
#define Int main()
#define Return printf
#define Print return
#include <stdio>
HelloWorld Int {
Return("Hello, world!\n");
Print 0; |
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
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Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | How long would it take to figure out all the individual useflags again? |
I have 94 lines in my package.use, it would take me about ... an hour or so to completely replace it, starting from scratch.
But none of that has anything to do with init systems.
Seems like your trolling is branching out ... and getting stupider 
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | they are not me and I don't recall being unpleasant nor posting vitriolic statements. |
Yes. Thank you.
| Quote: | | likewise I do not have overly complex flags and masks in /etc/portage |
By a n00b standards is a lot. It's complicated. What would happen if you delete your package.use by accident?
Now really think about that. How long would it take to figure out all the individual useflags again? |
Is that a challenge? I have been meaning to clean my use flags as there is going to be some redundant statements (as stated by asturm)
Shouldn't take too long.... MV file , emerge @world ... Diagnose output
And NONE associated with my init, that is in my make.conf, that nice -systemd
_________________
#define HelloWorld int
#define Int main()
#define Return printf
#define Print return
#include <stdio>
HelloWorld Int {
Return("Hello, world!\n");
Print 0; |
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axl
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
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Location: Romania
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | axl wrote: | | How long would it take to figure out all the individual useflags again? |
I have 94 lines in my package.use, it would take me about ... an hour or so to completely replace it, starting from scratch.
But none of that has anything to do with init systems.
Seems like your trolling is branching out ... and getting stupider |
Stupider. right
94 lines. buddy, you review those lines as often as you can. and back them up. I'll tell you... it's not solvable in an hour.
Pick up a stage3. using your existing configs, rebuild the system from ground up.
for my point to apply, you would have to do it without configs. and that's clearly impossible. you can't recompile the entire system from the ground up in an hour. and assuming you have the configs, it would prolly not help with the circular dependencies and everything. so, you would have to build a "default" system, and maybe change that in an hour. and I still say it's not possible. think data loss. massive data loss. rebuild your system.
I was in this situation. twice. you don't solve it in an hour. the longer your package.use is... the more time you will need to put it back together.
But ofc, that will NEVER happen to you. |
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54640
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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axl,
Its trivial to recover the contents of /etc/portage.
The process is left as an exercise for the reader.
Extra marks if you write a bash script to to it.
| axl wrote: | | I was in this situation. twice. ... |
You clearly failed to learn from the first time.
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
Last edited by NeddySeagoon on Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:15 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| @axl: I fail to see how any of this is relevant to $topic. |
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axl
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
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Location: Romania
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | axl,
Its trivial to recover the contents of /etc/portage.
The process is left as an exercise for the reader.
Extra marks if you write a bash script to to it.
| axl wrote: | | I was in this situation. twice. ... |
You clearly failed to learn from the first time. |
/var/db/pkg my brother. and if you don't have that... u better know how to rebuild the whole thing ground up. which is where short and simple make.conf/package.use come in handy. |
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axl
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
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Location: Romania
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | | @axl: I fail to see how any of this is relevant to $topic. |
Right. Well. I wasn't around since 2001 since I registered. I went away... was fine... came back. go figure.
All the while, everywhere I went, Offtopic... is offtopic. and people generally dont go crazy when things are talked in an offtopic area. isn't gentoo chat the offtopic area?
None of you are familiar with the concept? One place where you can just move from one subject to the next, because they are connected, and post 30 posts, and then starting it all over from the start. no? sounds alien?
Well, I didn't come often on gentoo forums over the years. maybe I should have. Offtopic is a great place where people should just be ignored if they are stupid, and should not be moderated in ANY way (unless death threads, violence.. that sort of stuff). and just offtopic away.
I was under the impression this is the offtopic forum. That and also, if you don't see how subject matters are tied to one another... maybe you should not advertise it. and also when you do advertise it, make it specific. what exactly is not relevant to you and it's so hard to ignore on offtopic forums?
I mean... really? what is so hard to ignore. assuming that's what you want to do? |
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axl
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Location: Romania
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | NeddySeagoon wrote: | axl,
Its trivial to recover the contents of /etc/portage.
The process is left as an exercise for the reader.
Extra marks if you write a bash script to to it.
| axl wrote: | | I was in this situation. twice. ... |
You clearly failed to learn from the first time. |
/var/db/pkg my brother. and if you don't have that... u better know how to rebuild the whole thing ground up. which is where short and simple make.conf/package.use come in handy. |
and no. it's not trivial. you could.... ok. you could extrapolate arch and flags from pretty much everything. but useflags. even with IUSE and USE and whatever else is in var/db/pkg... it would be a mess to sort it out in bash. certainly a whole mess to make a difference between flags that should be global vs local which is the whole separation between make.conf and packages.use.
also, I have a bash script I would like to submit for your consideration. You said you would give extra marks. None of the other participants seem to want to participate. just saying. |
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ct85711
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Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 1791
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| The strange thing is that you are making it seem it is a hard process of rebuilding the package.* & make.conf files from scratch. Even without going through the /var/db, you only need to look at emerge's output and look at all the use flags that's changed; simple by doing something like emerge -pve world and looking at which use flags have changes (most will show a % or * next to it, indicating it's changed). Even doing it line by line manually, you can rebuild the package.use without much problem. The few use flags that would cause problems, is those that you have to enable/disable to work around a compile failure (I know I had a few for that specific reason, no clue if they've been fixed yet). |
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tld
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Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 1848
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | | @axl: I fail to see how any of this is relevant to $topic. |
You're not kidding. He's describing stuff will happen to everyone's Gentoo configuration over time regardless of what they are or aren't running. I sure know my configuration could use a good cleaning for sure, and none of that is even remotely related to my use of OpenRC. This is shit you'd expect from someone that clearly doesn't even understand Gentoo itself, and guess what...it is.
Tom |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6069
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | axl wrote: | | NeddySeagoon wrote: | axl,
Its trivial to recover the contents of /etc/portage.
The process is left as an exercise for the reader.
Extra marks if you write a bash script to to it.
| axl wrote: | | I was in this situation. twice. ... |
You clearly failed to learn from the first time. |
/var/db/pkg my brother. and if you don't have that... u better know how to rebuild the whole thing ground up. which is where short and simple make.conf/package.use come in handy. |
and no. it's not trivial. you could.... ok. you could extrapolate arch and flags from pretty much everything. but useflags. even with IUSE and USE and whatever else is in var/db/pkg... it would be a mess to sort it out in bash. certainly a whole mess to make a difference between flags that should be global vs local which is the whole separation between make.conf and packages.use.
also, I have a bash script I would like to submit for your consideration. You said you would give extra marks. None of the other participants seem to want to participate. just saying. |
While this is offtopic just to show you...
| Code: | | # mv /etc/portage/package.use/user /etc/portage/package.use/.user |
A couple of emerge @world -uvDNa to work around some annoying non-trivial parsable outputs to seed the user package.use with:
| Code: | cat /etc/portage/package.use/user
dev-lang/php gd
dev-python/matplotlib -wxwidgets
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In fact I could probably remove php, mysql, nginx from my desktop now... they only got installed as my headless was boxed up for a while and I needed to testbench an ALM solution for work
THEN a simple
| Code: | emerge @world -uvDNa
These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild R ] media-libs/freetype-2.9.1-r4:2::gentoo USE="X adobe-cff bzip2 cleartype_hinting png -bindist -debug -doc -fontforge -harfbuzz -infinality -static-libs* -utils" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 1,882 KiB
[ebuild U ] sys-libs/libunwind-1.2.1-r2:7::gentoo [1.2.1-r1:7::gentoo] USE="static-libs -debug -debug-frame -doc -libatomic -lzma" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] app-portage/eix-0.33.2::gentoo USE="nls -debug -doc -sqlite*" 600 KiB
[ebuild R ] dev-libs/libxml2-2.9.8:2::gentoo USE="ipv6 python readline -debug -examples -icu* -lzma -static-libs -test" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7 python3_6 -python3_4 -python3_5" 5,341 KiB
[ebuild R ] sys-libs/gpm-1.20.7-r2::gentoo USE="(-selinux) -static-libs*" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 812 KiB
[ebuild R ] sys-kernel/gentoo-sources-4.18.3:4.18.3::gentoo USE="-build -experimental* -symlink" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] net-analyzer/nmap-7.70::gentoo USE="ipv6 nls nse ssl -libressl -libssh2 -ncat -ndiff -nmap-update -nping (-system-lua) -zenmap*" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7" 10,226 KiB
[ebuild N ] sys-libs/libcap-ng-0.7.9::gentoo USE="python -static-libs" PYTHON_TARGETS="python3_6 -python2_7 -python3_4 -python3_5" 439 KiB
[ebuild R ] virtual/jpeg-0-r2::gentoo USE="-static-libs*" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] media-gfx/feh-2.27::gentoo USE="exif -curl* -debug -test -xinerama" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] x11-wm/openbox-3.6.1-r1:3::gentoo USE="branding imlib nls startup-notification svg -debug -session -static-libs -xdg*" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7" 941 KiB
[ebuild R ] dev-qt/qtwidgets-5.11.1:5/5.11::gentoo USE="gtk* png xcb -debug (-gles2) -test" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] sys-libs/libcxxabi-6.0.1::gentoo USE="libunwind* static-libs -test" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] sys-libs/libcxx-6.0.1::gentoo USE="libcxxabi libunwind* static-libs -libcxxrt -test" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] app-editors/gvim-8.1.0034::gentoo USE="acl gtk nls python (-aqua) -cscope -debug -gnome -gtk3* -lua -luajit -motif -neXt -netbeans -perl -racket -ruby (-selinux) -session -tcl" PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="python3_6 -python2_7 -python3_4 -python3_5" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7 python3_6 -python3_4 -python3_5" 13,335 KiB
[ebuild R ] media-gfx/imagemagick-7.0.8.8:0/7.0.8.8::gentoo USE="X bzip2 corefonts cxx jpeg lcms openmp pango png svg tiff truetype xml zlib -djvu -fftw -fontconfig -fpx -graphviz -hdri -jbig -jpeg2k -lqr -lzma -opencl -openexr -perl -postscript* -q32 -q8 -raw -static-libs -test -webp -wmf" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] media-libs/libjpeg-turbo-2.0.0::gentoo USE="java* -static-libs*" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] sys-apps/util-linux-2.32.1::gentoo USE="cramfs ncurses nls pam python readline suid udev unicode -build -caps -fdformat -kill (-selinux) -slang -static-libs -systemd -test -tty-helpers*" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="python3_6 -python2_7 -python3_4 -python3_5 -python3_7" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7 python3_6 -python3_4 -python3_5 -python3_7" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] sys-block/parted-3.2_p20-r1::gentoo USE="debug nls readline -device-mapper* (-selinux) -static-libs" 1,702 KiB
[ebuild R ] net-vpn/tor-0.3.4.6_rc::gentoo USE="seccomp -caps -libressl -lzma -scrypt (-selinux) -systemd -test -tor-hardening* -web -zstd" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] app-admin/conky-1.10.8-r2::gentoo USE="X iconv imlib ipv6 ncurses portmon pulseaudio truetype -apcupsd* (-audacious) -cmus -curl* -eve -hddtemp* -ical -iostats* -irc -lua-cairo* -lua-imlib* -lua-rsvg -math* -moc* -mpd* -mysql -nano-syntax -nvidia -rss* -systemd -thinkpad -vim-syntax* -weather-metar* -weather-xoap* -webserver -wifi -xmms2" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] dev-vcs/git-2.18.0::gentoo USE="blksha1 curl gpg iconv nls pcre pcre-jit perl python threads webdav -cgi* -cvs -doc -emacs -gnome-keyring -highlight -libressl -mediawiki -mediawiki-experimental (-ppcsha1) -subversion -test -tk* -xinetd" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] sci-electronics/kicad-4.0.7::gentoo USE="python -debug -doc -examples* -github* -i18n -libressl -minimal" L10N="-bg -ca -cs -de -el -es -fi -fr -hu -it -ja -ko -nl -pl -pt -ru -sk -sl -sv -zh-CN" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7" 479,728 KiB
[ebuild R ] dev-qt/qtmultimedia-5.11.1:5/5.11::gentoo USE="alsa gstreamer pulseaudio -debug (-gles2) -openal -qml -test -widgets*" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] app-office/libreoffice-6.0.6.2::gentoo USE="branding cups gstreamer gtk java -bluetooth -coinmp -dbus -debug -eds -firebird -googledrive -gtk2* -jemalloc -kde -mysql -odk -pdfimport -postgres -test -vlc" LIBREOFFICE_EXTENSIONS="-nlpsolver -scripting-beanshell -scripting-javascript -wiki-publisher" PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="python3_6 -python2_7 -python3_4 -python3_5" PYTHON_TARGETS="python3_6 -python2_7 -python3_4 -python3_5" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] dev-python/matplotlib-2.2.2-r1::gentoo USE="cairo qt5 -doc -examples* -excel -gtk2 -gtk3* -latex* -test -tk* -wxwidgets" PYTHON_TARGETS="python3_6 -python2_7 -python3_4 -python3_5" 36,443 KiB
[ebuild R ] x11-base/xorg-server-1.20.1:0/1.20.1::gentoo USE="glamor ipv6 udev xorg -debug -dmx -doc -kdrive -libressl -minimal (-selinux) -static-libs -systemd -unwind -wayland -xcsecurity -xephyr -xnest -xvfb*" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers-396.51:0/396::gentoo USE="X acpi driver kms multilib tools -compat -gtk3* -pax_kernel -static-libs -uvm* -wayland" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] net-fs/cifs-utils-6.8::gentoo USE="acl ads caps* caps-ng pam -creds" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] media-video/ffmpeg-3.4.4:0/55.57.57::gentoo USE="X alsa bzip2 encode gpl hardcoded-tables iconv mp3 network opengl oss postproc pulseaudio samba* sdl svg threads truetype vorbis x264 xcb xvid zlib (-altivec) -amr -amrenc (-appkit) -bluray -bs2b -cdio -celt -chromaprint -chromium -cpudetection -debug -doc -fdk -flite -fontconfig -frei0r -fribidi -gcrypt -gme -gmp -gnutls -gsm -iec61883 -ieee1394 -jack -jpeg2k -kvazaar -ladspa -libass -libcaca -libdrm -libilbc -librtmp -libsoxr -libv4l -lzma (-mipsdspr1) (-mipsdspr2) (-mipsfpu) (-mmal) -modplug -nvenc -openal -opencl -openh264 -openssl* -opus -pic -rubberband -snappy -speex -ssh -static-libs -test -theora* -twolame -v4l* -vaapi* -vdpau* -vpx* -wavpack -webp -x265 -zeromq -zimg -zvbi" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" CPU_FLAGS_X86="mmx mmxext sse sse2 sse3 -3dnow -3dnowext -aes -avx -avx2 -fma3 -fma4 -sse4_1 -sse4_2 -ssse3 -xop" FFTOOLS="aviocat cws2fws ffescape ffeval ffhash fourcc2pixfmt graph2dot ismindex pktdumper qt-faststart sidxindex trasher" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] media-video/vlc-3.0.3-r1:0/5-9::gentoo USE="X a52 alsa dts dvbpsi dvd encode ffmpeg flac gcrypt gstreamer jpeg libnotify* libsamplerate mp3 mpeg ncurses ogg png pulseaudio qt5 samba ssl svg* truetype udev vorbis x264 xml (-altivec) -aom -archive -bidi -bluray -cddb -chromaprint -chromecast* -dbus -dc1394 -debug (-directx) -faad -fdk -fluidsynth -fontconfig* -gme -gnome-keyring -ieee1394 -jack -kate -libass -libav -libcaca -libtar -libtiger -linsys -lirc -live* -lua* -macosx-notifications (-macosx-qtkit) -matroska* -modplug -mtp -musepack (-neon) -nfs -omxil* -opencv -optimisememory -opus -postproc* -projectm -rdp -rtsp -run-as-root -schroedinger -sdl-image -sftp -shout -sid -skins -soxr -speex -srt -taglib -test -theora -tremor -twolame -upnp -v4l -vaapi* -vdpau -vnc -vpx -wayland -wma-fixed* -x265 -zeroconf -zvbi" CPU_FLAGS_X86="mmx sse" 0 KiB
[ebuild R ] media-video/mpv-0.27.2::gentoo USE="X alsa cdda cli dvd egl encode iconv jpeg lcms libass lua luajit opengl oss pulseaudio samba uchardet xv zlib (-aqua) -archive -bluray (-coreaudio) -cplugins -cuda -doc -drm -dvb -gbm -jack -javascript (-libav) -libcaca -libmpv* -openal (-raspberry-pi) -rubberband -sdl (-selinux) -test -tools* -v4l* -vaapi* -vdpau* -wayland -zsh-completion" PYTHON_TARGETS="python3_6 -python2_7 -python3_4 -python3_5" 2,993 KiB
[ebuild R ] x11-misc/lightdm-1.26.0-r1::gentoo USE="gtk* introspection* qt5 -audit -gnome -vala" 506 KiB |
Looking at the output, there is only a few flags I would want to correct...
dev-python/matplotlib examples tk .. having the examples local is handy and equally tk is very handy for throwing together lightweight tools I do for work.
x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers gtk3 having a UI is lazy
sci-electronics/kicad github ... sort of handy pooling the library parts from online
dev-vcs/git tk ... again lazy ui
media-gfx/feh curl ... sort of needed for openbox
sys-kernel/gentoo-sources experimental again lazy in manually setting the make options
net-analyzer/nmap zenmap ... lazy ui
so that took 5min and has drastically shortened my user package.use
| Code: | wc -l /etc/portage/package.use/.user /etc/portage/package.use/user
84 /etc/portage/package.use/.user
9 /etc/portage/package.use/user
93 total |
84lines down to 9 simply be doing a 5min simulated destruction of my user use file that I have used for a long, long time...
but as has been pointed out... this is more than trivial for a gentoo user AND equally has nothing to do with init
_________________
#define HelloWorld int
#define Int main()
#define Return printf
#define Print return
#include <stdio>
HelloWorld Int {
Return("Hello, world!\n");
Print 0;
Last edited by Naib on Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 655
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | axl,
Its trivial to recover the contents of /etc/portage.
The process is left as an exercise for the reader.
Extra marks if you write a bash script to to it.
| axl wrote: | | I was in this situation. twice. ... |
You clearly failed to learn from the first time. |
Not that it is relevant to systemd... but some of us have daily backups, offsite backups, AND version control of important files... so, even if it is trivial to recreate our gentoo config, that makes it stupid easy.
but to make it slightly more relevant, I also have logging sent to another system in case my system gets attacked (one of the advantages of proper traditional *nix logging daemons). |
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VinzC
Watchman
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 5098
Location: Dark side of the mood
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Back to the topic, please 
| A couple of pages ago, Ant P. wrote: | | sysvinit has a built in service manager. No major distro ever used it properly; if they had then systemd may have not been built at all. |
*cough* Like systemd developers would have listened to rational argumentations... *cough*
(Hey, look, it's all about trolling, right?)
_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
1739! |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Yamakuzure wrote: | axl, if you learned how to use the edit button, stopping your multi-posts, it wouldn't only be easier to ignore you, your trolling wouldn't at least be that unnerving.
tl;dr: Please just stop your attempts to proselytize us into using systemd.
I was almost on the verge of asking you whether you where a very young and inexperienced guy, then I noticed your registration date. So you are either a very young and inexperienced impostor of the true axl, or you went fully nuts over the years. And ignorant... very ignorant... |
++
Thank you for this post, Yamakuzure.
You've said everything I wanted to say, far more politely than I could, given the length of this trollfest: | Yamakuzure wrote: | My patience is simply over. Sorry. Your statements are so wrong on so many levels, I do not know where to start. Just let me tell you, that maintaining elogind for over 18 months now left me with a lot of inside-out-knowledge of the systemd code basis.
So your propaganda only stirs one thing in me: The strong wish to tell you to stop blabbering about stuff you have no idea off.
It boils down to two simple propositions:- If you like to use systemd, just do so.
- If someone else does not like to use systemd, just let them do so.
That's it, no magic involved, no mystery, nothing.
Remember: It isn't always shit just because you do not use it. And the reverse conclusion is, that is not always the one true thing everybody muist be urged into using, just because you like it.
Maybe you'd like to remember that "Someone Is Wrong On The Internet" is a valid reason for exactly nothing.
"The idea behind this meme is that people take Internet arguments too seriously and spend too much time trying to correct others online rather than spending time with their loved ones. However, there is another truth to the meme. The Internet is wrong.", Robert N Nash once wrote on hg.org.
I think he is right. |
Indeed. I had to tell my kid that actually the internet seems to be mostly full of shit.
The "modern" web is essentially every stupid playground conversation, faithfully recorded and amplified to cause more stupid yammering.
In this it is no different to "traditional" media, designed to establish "a pattern of uniform utterances" (or "narrative" in the "post-modern" phrasing) in an authoritarian's wet-dream: the Stasi would have loved the kind of surveillance ability the modern SS (or "homeland security" - yes, that is one translation of "Staats[sp?] Sicherheit") routinely abuse (in knowing violation of the Constitution and fundamental principles of Law.)
Anyhow, brilliant post; textbook example of how to deal with a troll. |
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Jaglover
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Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 8291
Location: Saint Amant, Acadiana
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Yamakuzure
Advocate
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2301
Location: Adendorf, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | isn't gentoo chat the offtopic area? |
Yes. As long as you create a topic (that would be off-topic elsewhere) and keep to it. The topic for this thread is "systemd - agree to disagree".
| axl wrote: | | None of you are familiar with the concept? One place where you can just move from one subject to the next, because they are connected, and post 30 posts, and then starting it all over from the start. no? sounds alien? |
That sounds very familiar, indeed! Internet Relay Chat!
| axl wrote: | | Offtopic is a great place where people should just be ignored if they are stupid, and should not be moderated in ANY way |
We have such a place: "Off The Wall"
| steveL wrote: | | The "modern" web is essentially every stupid playground conversation, faithfully recorded and amplified to cause more stupid yammering. |
If you are almost bored to death and want plenty of exactly that to get your mind off things: The Comment Section on political news articles! 
| steveL wrote: | | the Stasi would have loved the kind of surveillance ability the modern SS (or "homeland security" - yes, that is one translation of "Staats[sp?] Sicherheit") routinely abuse (in knowing violation of the Constitution and fundamental principles of Law.) |
Someone once said:
"Imagine the Stasi ("Staatssicherheit") with computers and the ability to track GPS enabled cell phones and you would end up with the NSA.".
| steveL wrote: | | Anyhow, brilliant post; textbook example of how to deal with a troll. |
Thanks, buddy! 
| Jaglover wrote: | | Textbook example how to deal with a troll is not to deal with a troll. I've had great success doing just that. Trolls go elsewhere when not fed. |
And I would have done exactly that if it weren't a fellow gentooer with many years of gentoo support on them.
Actually I felt that this trollfest was more an accident than on purpose. If "putting my foot down" (as if I had the authority to do so ) helped him to have some wake-up feeling, then everything is okay.
A couple of years ago I had caused such an avalanche of "trolling", too. Not to troll, but because I was simply not able to express myself understandably enough. The "Foot-Downer" for me was pappy_mcfae. It took a while for me to understand, but in the end I got around.
Oh, and SteveL put my feet back on the ground a couple of times, too! Thanks alot, mate!
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Ant P.
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Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| VinzC wrote: | Back to the topic, please ;-)
| A couple of pages ago, Ant P. wrote: | | sysvinit has a built in service manager. No major distro ever used it properly; if they had then systemd may have not been built at all. |
*cough* Like systemd developers would have listened to rational argumentations... *cough*
(Hey, look, it's all about trolling, right?) |
Just so everyone's on the same page, here's a short history lesson about RedHat and Canonical's perpetual corporate dick-waving contest.
Back in 2007(,8,9?), RedHat pulled a publicity stunt in getting Fedora Core to boot to desktop on an eee701 in five seconds (by tweaking the kernel and gutting the entire system). That ran on sysvinit though, because it's what everyone on Linux knew at the time (unless you were a real Gentoo ricer and used einit or init-ng). So there's hard evidence that sysvinit was good enough speed-wise, straight from the horse's mouth.
Ubuntu wanted to steal that show but had a hard time doing so, because they just pile bloat on top of Debian without bothering to understand it, and Debian's rc system at the time was the infamous LSB shell script system which was flaky, unreliable and slow. So they made Upstart, which replaces sysvinit/inittab… the vestigial part they didn't have problems with in the first place. Half the boot process still used those LSB scripts and they were still bad, but now they had a whole pile of bloat and vendor lock-in and confusing semi-declarative event-driven ini files in the other half.
And so RedHat copies that wholesale and turns it into an enterprise-grade eldritch abomination. But they actually employ engineers and know what they're doing, so they can do real damage by porting their entire OS off of LSB scripts. Now they have a thing that runs faster than Debian LSB or Ubuntu Upstart, is just as incompatible with everything that went before, and starts having an avalanche of network effects all while they're going “lol, not our fault GNOME uses it”. You know how the rest goes.
Meanwhile every other OS/distro out there that isn't LSB or BSD based has had an event-driven service manager available for over 15 years. We certainly did. Makes you wonder why we should care about RedHat's copycat at all. |
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Fitzcarraldo
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Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Posts: 2056
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Ant P. wrote: | | ...all while they're going “lol, not our fault GNOME uses it”. You know how the rest goes. |
The problem seems to be that Red Hat developers ≡ GNOME developers ≡ freedesktop.org developers. Any mention of those three in conjunction with anything in Linux makes me leery.
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Clevo W230SS: amd64, VIDEO_CARDS="intel modesetting nvidia".
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OpenRC systemd-utils[udev] elogind KDE on both.
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6176
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Back to systemd, IF systemd was only the init system, then it wouldn't be so bad.
It's when they decided to add on logging (binary of all things), login manager, networking, and a whole host
of unrelated functions (unrelated to init, that is) that it went from a reasonable idea to a WTF are they doing idea.
Now whether that was RH's idea or the pin-head's (LP) idea, I'm not sure.
Either way it does fit in with the direction that RH wants to go.
They want to be the MS of the linux world.
And all those other distros that are hanging on RH's coattails will regret it, if RH ever gets a sizeable enough locked in share of the linux marketplace.
They'll pull a MS on the others and they won't let them copy parts of their distro. Oh the kernel itself will be safe, except for maybe RH's extensions,
as I don't know what license they use for them. But much else will be locked away.
Look at what happened to all the devs that created addons for gnome2, ie themes, etc. Come gnome3 they were persona non gratis.
RH didn't want to work with them, they claimed they were diluting the RH brand.
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6069
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | Back to systemd, IF systemd was only the init system, then it wouldn't be so bad.
It's when they decided to add on logging (binary of all things), login manager, networking, and a whole host
of unrelated functions (unrelated to init, that is) that it went from a reasonable idea to a WTF are they doing idea.
Now whether that was RH's idea or the pin-head's (LP) idea, I'm not sure.
Either way it does fit in with the direction that RH wants to go.
They want to be the MS of the linux world.
And all those other distros that are hanging on RH's coattails will regret it, if RH ever gets a sizeable enough locked in share of the linux marketplace.
They'll pull a MS on the others and they won't let them copy parts of their distro. Oh the kernel itself will be safe, except for maybe RH's extensions,
as I don't know what license they use for them. But much else will be locked away.
Look at what happened to all the devs that created addons for gnome2, ie themes, etc. Come gnome3 they were persona non gratis.
RH didn't want to work with them, they claimed they were diluting the RH brand. |
If they made those things as standalone it wouldn't be so bad... You could pick some part you wanted but not others. Would mean alternative implementation were easier since it wouldn't be -lsystemd
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#define Int main()
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#define Print return
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HelloWorld Int {
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roki942
Apprentice
Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 285
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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Emacsd anyone?  |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6176
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| roki942 wrote: | | Emacsd anyone? |
Ssssshh!!! Don't give them any ideas
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| roki942 wrote: | | Emacsd anyone? :twisted: |
| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | Ssssshh!!! Don't give them any ideas :lol: |
Anon ... too late, they already had that brainfart (back in 2012).
best ... khay |
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