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axl
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
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Location: Romania
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 Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| tld wrote: | | axl wrote: | | My whole point is that it's not such a big scary monster if you decide to learn how to deal with it. it's like everything else in the unix world. first it's scary, then you tame it. |
You mean just like the way everything else in unix threw away all the technology along with the the very principles that preceded it, and how they made everyone relearn everything they've known how to do for years? Now I get it....silly me.
More importantly, you keep missing the point of every thread like this: We don't give a flying crap if someone wants to use systemd, but when that starts screwing with those of us who don't that's a much different matter.
Tom |
also, systemd is a C gpl software. either I don't know what that is or you don't.
I am a user. i am not a kernel guy, a distro guy, or any kind of guy really. i'm a user. yet I get by and dont complain as much. |
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spork_kitty
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Jul 2019
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | the upside is that once you do it, you cannot do it ever over again. once you do it... that's it. it's done. that's how I look at it. |
I'm not sure I understand; are you saying that migrating to systemd is a one-time thing?
That's true, for one machine and one use case. Adding other use cases might not be so smooth. It could depend on functionality you haven't learned yet in systemd, or it could be an inetd-style daemon that needs running through xinetd first. You start running into this type of stuff when you explore older protocols like Gopher and Finger, i.e. software that systemd-using people don't really use (and thus doesn't have a unit file). For common software that's already on-board the FDO train, you probably won't ever need to read a unit file. For everything else, though, you're stuck integrating it yourself.
This learning isn't one-time, either. systemd is an ever-changing beast. It experiences much more code churn than other init systems and service managers; that means more potential for breakage or new stuff you have to learn to keep your existing behavior. The tmux/screen fiasco shows they don't care if your use case breaks. They've tried to get the kernel guys to clean up systemd's messes, ffs.
Are you subscribed to the systemd-devel mailing list and their git repo? That's really the only way I see being able to keep up with their ADD-fueled development and minimize breakage of systems at the same time. Time spent reading that stuff is time I could spend on my personal projects instead.
That's true of all highly-active software with cavalier developers, btw. It's not just systemd, they just happen to be doing it at a low enough level to affect everything else. One shouldn't build a foundation on sand. It doesn't mean the sand can't later settle and solidify into a stable API, but generally a developer community that doesn't value the user or integrator won't stabilize an API because "muh agile" and "move fast and break things" mentalities. |
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axl
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Location: Romania
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| spork_kitty wrote: | | axl wrote: | | the upside is that once you do it, you cannot do it ever over again. once you do it... that's it. it's done. that's how I look at it. |
I'm not sure I understand; are you saying that migrating to systemd is a one-time thing? |
NO!!! you should do what feels right.
but you might build a backlog of uncomfortable stuff. don't. the rest of your post tells me you're in your 20s. just don't... that's all i have to say.
after 20 years of doing it, no, i don't believe in sudden migration. just sit low, learn, do, apply. be modest. the world is ALWAYS bigger than you.
Last edited by axl on Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tld
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | funny. i can't remember a tld post where you signed. |
Huh? I usually do. Maybe if you ever read or posted anything on this forum that wasn't related to trolling these threads you'd know that.
| axl wrote: | anyway. i am not threaten by systemd. and I read posts such as these as a cry for help.  |
I have no response for this that won't get this thread locked...still waiting for you to answer Anon-E-moose as to exactly what your problem is. I'm done.
Tom |
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axl
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| tld wrote: | | axl wrote: | | funny. i can't remember a tld post where you signed. |
Huh? I usually do. Maybe if you ever read or posted anything on this forum that wasn't related to trolling these threads you'd know that. |
no actually I read a lot of your posts, big fan. never seen you sign. but i am obviously wrong. you obviously know better about yourself than me.
| Quote: | | axl wrote: | | anyway. i am not threaten by systemd. and I read posts such as these as a cry for help. |
I have no response for this that won't get this thread locked...still waiting for you to answer Anon-E-moose as to exactly what your problem is. I'm done.
Tom |
i said it again and again. if we came from the same background... in 199something i wanted something else. i tried redhad, than move to slackware, and in 2001 (even though i remember the x-mas of 98 when i compiled by my first gentoo - unreliable memory) ... i think i payed my dues. i'm old and that pisses me off.
The moose, asked multiple questions. And I tried to answer them as best I could multiple times. I love the guy. I really do. But on the other hand it's one of those things... you know you never gonna see eye to eye. So I unilaterally decided I love the Moose and we don't ever have a problem.
Scrolled down in respect. The question was WTF is my problem. Well the short answer is incompetence. I learned out this word, his meaning and the way it relates with my life when I picked up linux. nothing has ever been the same since. |
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spork_kitty
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Jul 2019
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | spork_kitty wrote: | | axl wrote: | | the upside is that once you do it, you cannot do it ever over again. once you do it... that's it. it's done. that's how I look at it. |
I'm not sure I understand; are you saying that migrating to systemd is a one-time thing? |
NO!!! you should do what feels right.
but you might build a backlog of uncomfortable stuff. don't. the rest of your post tells me you're in your 20s. just don't... that's all i have to say.
after 20 years of doing it, no, i don't believe in sudden migration. just sit low, learn, do, apply. be modest. the world is ALWAYS bigger than you. |
Okay, my bad. I feel like there's a specific piece of information in our communication that I missed. Nobody's age has anything to do with what we're chattin' about. I've been around Linux since the early 2000s. Not nearly as long as some around here, but I've been around long enough to see HAL replace static dev, then udev replace HAL, then systemd swallow udev and begin its expansion. Lots of other changes have happened in that time, in other parts of the stack, to a similar tune, ofc.
Perhaps where we differ is in the approach. If I like something, I don't see a reason to just change it because someone decided I should use their stuff instead or they convinced upstream to use their stuff. The rest of the world could be going in said direction and frankly, I'm not moved by it. In my experience, people who advocate for following the group also tend to advocate letting others make decisions for you. That leads to abuse and tyranny.
This part of human psychology is actively being exploited by people, inside and outside FOSS. FOMO (fear of missing out), peer pressure, public embarrassment, smear campaigns, and threats of isolation have all been used to get people to do the bidding of others. All human groups are prone to such manipulation, so if a group makes a decision and tries to push it on others, I'm immediately suspect.
No decision should be made with "it's what everyone else is doing" as a reason. That is the thinking of a mob or a herd animal. |
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axl
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| spork_kitty wrote: | | axl wrote: | | spork_kitty wrote: | | axl wrote: | | the upside is that once you do it, you cannot do it ever over again. once you do it... that's it. it's done. that's how I look at it. |
I'm not sure I understand; are you saying that migrating to systemd is a one-time thing? |
NO!!! you should do what feels right.
but you might build a backlog of uncomfortable stuff. don't. the rest of your post tells me you're in your 20s. just don't... that's all i have to say.
after 20 years of doing it, no, i don't believe in sudden migration. just sit low, learn, do, apply. be modest. the world is ALWAYS bigger than you. |
Okay, my bad. I feel like there's a specific piece of information in our communication that I missed. Nobody's age has anything to do with what we're chattin' about. I've been around Linux since the early 2000s. Not nearly as long as some around here, but I've been around long enough to see HAL replace static dev, then udev replace HAL, then systemd swallow udev and begin its expansion. Lots of other changes have happened in that time, in other parts of the stack, to a similar tune, ofc.
Perhaps where we differ is in the approach. If I like something, I don't see a reason to just change it because someone decided I should use their stuff instead or they convinced upstream to use their stuff. The rest of the world could be going in said direction and frankly, I'm not moved by it. In my experience, people who advocate for following the group also tend to advocate letting others make decisions for you. That leads to abuse and tyranny.
This part of human psychology is actively being exploited by people, inside and outside FOSS. FOMO (fear of missing out), peer pressure, public embarrassment, smear campaigns, and threats of isolation have all been used to get people to do the bidding of others. All human groups are prone to such manipulation, so if a group makes a decision and tries to push it on others, I'm immediately suspect.
No decision should be made with "it's what everyone else is doing" as a reason. That is the thinking of a mob or a herd animal. |
Once again. I do this stuff for a hobby, and a job.
I couldn't afford going to a job interview and say: hey man i'm opposed to systemd because philosophy. i would simply not get the job. and feel bad about myself as an incompetent and not curious sysadmin. so I had to learn.
way... way later, i noticed some gentoo gentlemen and some other folks are having a problem with systemd. like... end of the world problems. and here we are.
you look at systemd and see this:
| Quote: | | This part of human psychology is actively being exploited by people, inside and outside FOSS. FOMO (fear of missing out), peer pressure, public embarrassment, smear campaigns, and threats of isolation have all been used to get people to do the bidding of others. All human groups are prone to such manipulation, so if a group makes a decision and tries to push it on others, I'm immediately suspect. |
I look at systemd and see a bunch of C files. it's in the eye of the beholder. but really... fearing a gpl systemd that comes as C source files... weak... |
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spork_kitty
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Jul 2019
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | spork_kitty wrote: | | axl wrote: | | spork_kitty wrote: | | axl wrote: | | the upside is that once you do it, you cannot do it ever over again. once you do it... that's it. it's done. that's how I look at it. |
I'm not sure I understand; are you saying that migrating to systemd is a one-time thing? |
NO!!! you should do what feels right.
but you might build a backlog of uncomfortable stuff. don't. the rest of your post tells me you're in your 20s. just don't... that's all i have to say.
after 20 years of doing it, no, i don't believe in sudden migration. just sit low, learn, do, apply. be modest. the world is ALWAYS bigger than you. |
Okay, my bad. I feel like there's a specific piece of information in our communication that I missed. Nobody's age has anything to do with what we're chattin' about. I've been around Linux since the early 2000s. Not nearly as long as some around here, but I've been around long enough to see HAL replace static dev, then udev replace HAL, then systemd swallow udev and begin its expansion. Lots of other changes have happened in that time, in other parts of the stack, to a similar tune, ofc.
Perhaps where we differ is in the approach. If I like something, I don't see a reason to just change it because someone decided I should use their stuff instead or they convinced upstream to use their stuff. The rest of the world could be going in said direction and frankly, I'm not moved by it. In my experience, people who advocate for following the group also tend to advocate letting others make decisions for you. That leads to abuse and tyranny.
This part of human psychology is actively being exploited by people, inside and outside FOSS. FOMO (fear of missing out), peer pressure, public embarrassment, smear campaigns, and threats of isolation have all been used to get people to do the bidding of others. All human groups are prone to such manipulation, so if a group makes a decision and tries to push it on others, I'm immediately suspect.
No decision should be made with "it's what everyone else is doing" as a reason. That is the thinking of a mob or a herd animal. |
Once again. I do this stuff for a hobby, and a job.
I couldn't afford going to a job interview and say: hey man i'm opposed to systemd because philosophy. i would simply not get the job. and feel bad about myself as an incompetent and not curious sysadmin. so I had to learn.
way... way later, i noticed some gentoo gentlemen and some other folks are having a problem with systemd. like... end of the world problems. and here we are.
you look at systemd and see this:
| Quote: | | This part of human psychology is actively being exploited by people, inside and outside FOSS. FOMO (fear of missing out), peer pressure, public embarrassment, smear campaigns, and threats of isolation have all been used to get people to do the bidding of others. All human groups are prone to such manipulation, so if a group makes a decision and tries to push it on others, I'm immediately suspect. |
I look at systemd and see a bunch of C files. it's in the eye of the beholder. but really... fearing a gpl systemd that comes as C source files... weak... |
Well there we have it, you have a business reason for using systemd. It's in common use, and if you target (or work for) the types of companies using it, you have no choice but to learn it. I'm not judging you for using it, but the juvenile comments wrt my age or strength aren't doing you any favors.
I do not work in the computer field, so I have the luxury of not putting up with what I don't want. I do not envy people who have to deal with systemd, Oracle tech, MS tech, or other 800lb gorillas for a day job.
systemd is far more than a code repository, Lennart himself will tell you such.
What you quoted covers some of the behavior by systemd proponents (please take a look at the discussions that many distros had when they were considering switching to it; it was rather crazy), but it's not exclusive to systemd. I'm pointing out human behavior; behavior that's still relevant in a software project. Why? Software exists to be used by humans. How those humans use (or build) the software is just as important as the code that creates the software. We can extend that to the management of the project. How that project is managed influences how people perceive and interact with the project. IMO, it's important to consider a project in its entirety instead of just the code that's in the repo. Considering the rest of it will (hopefully) allow you to see where they came from, where they are, and where they're hoping to be in the future. Each one of those things is distinctly human and meaningless to a CPU.
It looks like you're happy to consider systemd just a pile of C code. So I guess it doesn't have developers, documentation writers, advocates, liaisons in other distros, etc.
Oh, but it does have developers, and doc writers, and so on! What does that mean from your perspective? (honest question) Do you believe that every person working on systemd lacks a goal or agenda? Do you know what systemd's goal is? Have you watched any of Lennarts talks, read his ideology wrt system structure, or read the arguments he's participated in?
I have done all three. I have done my homework, and looked at the situation. Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer, right?  When we choose software to run, we're implicitly trusting that person or organization with our computing resources. I do not trust Lennart Poettering as a software developer. His software has created many problems for me, and others, across many different systems. I do not trust Red Hat, a for-profit entity, to Do The Right Thing. I trust them to work toward their agenda of "One True Linux" because that will probably make them a lot of money, but I find that to be an evolutionary dead-end for the future of FOSS. I therefore chose to sidestep the whole thing until people realize what happened and we return to well-defined software boundaries and de-coupled parts.
I expect a comment having to do with me singling out Lennart, but he's just the leader. Who else would you hold responsible for a project if not its leader? There are many programmers who I don't trust with my computing resources; he's just the only one who seems to want his code on my system so much that I have to dodge it. Drew DeVault is another programmer I do not trust with my computing resources. His work may be going the same route wrt Wayland. When that time comes you'll probably see a few posts from me on that too. Until then, Xorg it is.
We can sit here and argue about how important the social side of a project is, but I'm not interested in that and you don't seem to be, either. I just want to convey that there IS a social side, inseparable from the code. People write code. Even code that writes itself was written by a human being. I'm curious as to how this social side fits into your view of the project, and FOSS in general.
You call it fear, but how is it such? I've tried using systemd, multiple times. I "gave it a chance". I ran into technical problems with it, first-hand. I've taken part in discussions on it, against proponents, dozens of times. Fear is not quite right here; contempt and disappointment, I'd say is better.
You know why? Because it sounds good on paper. One Linux. One, well-known, easy target for building software. But attaining that comes with some considerable down-sides:
* There's only one structure. If your use case is outside of what is conventional, you'll be on your own.
* Because there's only one structure, it can be studied, picked apart, and attacked. Not only attacked -- attacked at scale -- meaning a hot opportunity for spreading malware. And because most of your users use that one structure, that means practically *everyone* is affected by bugs, zero days, remote exploits, or whatever else the attacker(s) figure out. When this is at a low part of the stack, it's much more important to get it correct. This is a real thing in biology, btw. It's called a monoculture, and we have brought some plant species to extinction due to such practices, because the chosen species lacked the ability to fight particular environmental threats. Software is no different. Coalescing to one stack makes GNU/Linux easier to attack, because you'll be able to make more safe assumptions about what is running and how. This is good for business, good for lazy users, and bad for the long-term health of the platform.
* Should trends change in system architecture or software development, the One True Thing is likely to be heavier and possess much more technical debt than what it's competing with, making the adaptation to changing conditions harder. In other words, it won't be able to keep up with competing solutions without considerably more human resources. (Hmmm, seems like companies have a lot of that... and systemd development is funded by Red Hat, a for-profit company. Hmmmm. It's almost like they knew this was a weakness and planned for it.)
That's just what I can think of at the moment. Sure, fragmentation has its downsides too, but what we gain from it is a diversity of solutions and a much more resilient attack surface, in general. I think that is more valuable than anything promised by One True Linux.
systemd could not have been introduced in a One True Linux world, though. Kind of ironic imo.
P.S. Efforts to create One True Linux in the gaming world have led to more and more games just targeting Proton (i.e. wine) instead of making native ports. Completely different field from low level userspace (and proprietary instead of FOSS), but a movement to coalesce has demonstrably hurt the percentage of native games for the platform. Because of those efforts, deploying a game for Linux, for most devs, is to target a library that pretends it's Windows, i.e. pretending Linux doesn't exist.
And of course we couldn't be discussing standardization efforts without the obligatory XKCD.
(for the record I apologize for the length and I understand you are being a little inciteful, but I chose to engage honestly instead) |
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:55 am Post subject: |
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spork_kitty,
I need to trot out this old article. Yep, its over 20 years old.
It was written naming Microsoft but it applies equally well to Red Hat or any would be monopoly when the next "best thing" comes along.
If Red Hat get their monoculture and I really hope they don't for the reasons you list and the historical lessons from that link, then GNU/Linux will just be another target like Windows.
It will be worse actually, as Linux runs over half of the internet.
Its not systemd I'm against, its the monoculture that it wants to force on its users.
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6186
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:41 am Post subject: |
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I choose not to use gnome or kde and I have my reasons for it, nothing to do with hatred any I don't "hate" systemd. I simply choose not to use it.
It would be rather stupid for someone to continue to try and convince me to use it, simply because they use gnome, kde or systemd at work or are enamored with it for whatever reason. They have their reasons for liking/using said product and I have mine for not choosing. Should I push my preferences on them non-stop simply because? Wouldn't I appear unreasonably foolish in my actions at that point?
I choose to use openbox, vim, startx, X11 instead of wayland, etc, should I pester people continually to use what I use and only what I use?
Some don't like systemd because of the (seeming) lack of engineering.
Some don't like the monoculture that it stands for.
And I dare say there's a handful of other reasons that people choose not to use it.
Let them be, let them make their own decisions, and let them discuss it if they want to. *sheesh*
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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What is the value of that usr-split useflag for gentoo?
If turn on (which is mostly the case for every gentoo users for now), /sbin(...) are directories and ebuild should not hack install path of critical boot programs (because if instead of letting dhcpcd install in /sbin you install it in /usr/sbin, you'll break boot with usr split).
If turn off, i suppose the ebuild will install dhcpcd binary into /usr/sbin ... but for what value?
if you still force dhcpcd into /sbin unconditionaly, then it will work for users without symlink /sbin, but it will work also for users with the symlinks, the binary endup into their /usr/sbin
So as long as gentoo use symlinks, there's just no value into forcing installing anything into /usr, but more a value into specially forcing to install in /sbin instead (as it will work for both users, one with /sbin a symlink and one with /sbin a directory)
or is it there to actually more to help separate /usr? when usr-split is turn on, critical to boot stupidly made programs will be hacked to install properly in an appropriate to boot locations, and the critical to boot "moron" program that install per default in /usr/sbin will be push into /sbin to save everyone from moron's author stupidity.
Yeah sorry, it could had been the case, but i think it's a joke.
* if we don't need any usr-split useflag to both support users with /sbin a directory and /sbin a symlink by forcing always the use of /sbin, then this useflag is useless
* but if you plan to finally remove /sbin (and others) symlinks, then /usr/sbin users must have their programs properly install into /usr/sbin and no more into /sbin but by doing so you are voiding /usr in a separate partition
The only logical conclusion is that useflag is there because gentoo wants to remove the symlinks ; but for what gains?
* you gain: 3 less symlinks into / (/sbin /lib /bin)
* you loose: ability to boot properly with a split /usr ; which mean loosing ability to mount /usr from nfs, RO or whatever
All this shit to have 3 less symlinks in / ? Really?
There must be something else i don't think about, i can't believe they are doing all that just to have 3 less symlinks in / |
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spork_kitty
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Jul 2019
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | spork_kitty,
I need to trot out this old article. Yep, its over 20 years old.
It was written naming Microsoft but it applies equally well to Red Hat or any would be monopoly when the next "best thing" comes along.
If Red Hat get their monoculture and I really hope they don't for the reasons you list and the historical lessons from that link, then GNU/Linux will just be another target like Windows.
It will be worse actually, as Linux runs over half of the internet.
Its not systemd I'm against, its the monoculture that it wants to force on its users. |
Thanks for the link. I've been itching for some computer history to read.
When it comes down to it, I too am against the monoculture more than I am systemd. Well said.
systemd wouldn't be on my radar if they didn't continually try to fuck with userspace. |
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ulenrich
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Joined: 10 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| krinn wrote: | All this shit to have 3 less symlinks in / ? Really?
There must be something else i don't think about, i can't believe they are doing all that just to have 3 less symlinks in / |
Nobody wants to kill your symlinks. But the majority Linux installations are virtual machines. The owners of these just want to mount read only /usr all at once. Therefore every wanna be big distributor offers usr-merge as a convenience. |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6186
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| ulenrich wrote: | | krinn wrote: | All this shit to have 3 less symlinks in / ? Really?
There must be something else i don't think about, i can't believe they are doing all that just to have 3 less symlinks in / |
Nobody wants to kill your symlinks. But the majority Linux installations are virtual machines. The owners of these just want to mount read only /usr all at once. Therefore every wanna be big distributor offers usr-merge as a convenience. |
I don't think anyone cares if it gets offered as a choice. But choice is the keyword.
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Morality124
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 102
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ulenrich wrote: | | krinn wrote: | All this shit to have 3 less symlinks in / ? Really?
There must be something else i don't think about, i can't believe they are doing all that just to have 3 less symlinks in / |
Nobody wants to kill your symlinks. But the majority Linux installations are virtual machines. The owners of these just want to mount read only /usr all at once. Therefore every wanna be big distributor offers usr-merge as a convenience. |
Yep... the same reason quality control is in the toilet. As Steve L. pointed out, "testing" = "developers" recreating the VM of the distro every time there is a crippling bug (Debian in that case). |
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Marcih
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Joined: 19 Feb 2018
Posts: 213
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| Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | hey, im not saying separate /usr isn't fine, i am just getting some info. If key applications (udev WHICH is a systemd application) store info or applications in /usr AND itself does not have the concept of "needed to boot" and "once things are booted" then yes there is an architectural flaw
I have said this time and time again with FOSS software (and software in general) there is no system engineering going on. no use cases, no sequence diagrams. every now and again you see BDD and IBD but none of the rational as to that
Had the system been modeled and a separate /usr been considered as a use-case then the pre-req would have been clear for the likes of udev (a systemd project) |
| Naib wrote: | /usr was a hack to start with but the use cases it enabled have been viable.
It never ceases to amaze me how piss poor software engineer are at architecting a system... Critical to boot and that which can be delayed should have been understood and managed by now. This constant hack upon hack upon hack, initiated by systemd development, and perpetuated by a lack of understanding has gotten us where we are. |
Everything we use is a hack on top on of a hack on top of a hack , this is nothing new...... I'm not happy with systemd but it's here now thank you everyone. The majority uses it. We are the ones who have to aoadpt to it. But we can do it, Gentoo is about CHOICE and so is open source free software sofrware-
On the other hand I can do like the new 17.1 profile change, a ver ywelcome change on my part!
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| Bones McCracker wrote: | | It wouldn't be so bad, if it didn't suck. |
| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | The problem with leaving is that you can only do it once and it reduces your influence. |
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spork_kitty
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Jul 2019
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Marcih wrote: | | Naib wrote: | hey, im not saying separate /usr isn't fine, i am just getting some info. If key applications (udev WHICH is a systemd application) store info or applications in /usr AND itself does not have the concept of "needed to boot" and "once things are booted" then yes there is an architectural flaw
I have said this time and time again with FOSS software (and software in general) there is no system engineering going on. no use cases, no sequence diagrams. every now and again you see BDD and IBD but none of the rational as to that
Had the system been modeled and a separate /usr been considered as a use-case then the pre-req would have been clear for the likes of udev (a systemd project) |
| Naib wrote: | /usr was a hack to start with but the use cases it enabled have been viable.
It never ceases to amaze me how piss poor software engineer are at architecting a system... Critical to boot and that which can be delayed should have been understood and managed by now. This constant hack upon hack upon hack, initiated by systemd development, and perpetuated by a lack of understanding has gotten us where we are. |
Everything we use is a hack on top on of a hack on top of a hack , this is nothing new...... I'm not happy with systemd but it's here now thank you everyone. The majority uses it. We are the ones who have to aoadpt to it. But we can do it, Gentoo is about CHOICE and so is open source free software sofrware-
On the other hand I can do like the new 17.1 profile change, a ver ywelcome change on my part! |
Part of why systemd has been so effective in spreading is the counter-culture building in Linux land where choice comes second to being coddled by Red Hat or some other commercial outfit that sells support. People honestly believe that others making decisions for them will result in good things later down the line. They are naïve and haven't been burned yet.
Distro developers do not believe Linux is about choice, including Gentoo. That's part of why distros can't be trusted to make the right call. They operate under different values and challenges. They have to consider funding to continue their work, attracting talent from elsewhere in the community, and policies that keep things from changing too much, so their product can be safely assumed to be One Thing.
Monied interests like Red Hat, SuSE, etc want these stressors to be pressed against other distros so they can scoop up the rest of the mindshare once things crumble thanks to the constantly moving FDO and XDG targets.
So to clarify, we the power users value choice, but the overwhelming consensus in Linux land is "choice is a waste of time, just do what everyone else does".
They haven't learned their lesson yet. |
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ct85711
Veteran
Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 1791
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| Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:10 am Post subject: |
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I was just reading a article about Debian's next LTS (Debian 10, Buster). Now, the main part that caught my attention is more of, is that it will be completely done on /usr merging point (/bin, /sbin, etc merged with /usr/bin, etc...). Now, I've thought Debian was going away from the idea of being a rock stable/dependable distro with the hard dependency on systemd and everything. Now with them, jumping head first into /usr merging; it makes me wondering about the state of linux in general. Now with the path that gentoo seems to be heading, I am going need to consider if it is worth even staying with linux anymore or not. Obviously, it seems linux as a whole seems fully intended to drive the train at full steam over the cliff.
On a side thought, maybe MS finally manage to do what it been trying to do for so long, killing off the linux as whole by polluting the very foundation, to where no one would have the ability to fix all the damage. |
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spork_kitty
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Jul 2019
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| ct85711 wrote: | I was just reading a article about Debian's next LTS (Debian 10, Buster). Now, the main part that caught my attention is more of, is that it will be completely done on /usr merging point (/bin, /sbin, etc merged with /usr/bin, etc...). Now, I've thought Debian was going away from the idea of being a rock stable/dependable distro with the hard dependency on systemd and everything. Now with them, jumping head first into /usr merging; it makes me wondering about the state of linux in general. Now with the path that gentoo seems to be heading, I am going need to consider if it is worth even staying with linux anymore or not. Obviously, it seems linux as a whole seems fully intended to drive the train at full steam over the cliff.
On a side thought, maybe MS finally manage to do what it been trying to do for so long, killing off the linux as whole by polluting the very foundation, to where no one would have the ability to fix all the damage. |
Well, thankfully we have the tools available to go our own way. Gentoo was built with them, and LFS is a small book away if the tide becomes too strong.
Technically the corporations have already won (take a look at who's on the Linux Foundation), but they won because of proprietary hardware that (mostly) only they could easily write drivers for, and because they have more human resources (who are profit-driven) to throw at the problem space. I predict that at some major version cut-off, the license of the kernel will change, after Linus retires or dies. It's been co-opted, just as early userland was co-opted by Red Hat. These were deliberate actions, and a demonstration of why (imo) we need more anti-commercial software. Now we have distros thinking they need to chase commercial distros in system architecture, oblivious to the agenda (coalescense disguised as standardization).
The alternatives to GNU/Linux out there don't really inspire me or support a lot of what I do, though. Plan9 is a neat concept but a dead OS afaict, the BSDs have their own fair share of issues ( CoC, all-in-one-repo OS, etc) but rock-solid security, and the others like Minix just don't have a lot of hardware support and are clearly research projects. Nothing wrong with it, though; we won't find meaningful advancements if we don't experiment.
The hardware support wouldn't be a problem if we had open schematics and some way to verify that a design is what it says it is. We're kinda stuck with Linux because it's the only libre kernel that the hardware makers are contributing to. And they know it. |
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virtguru
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 14 Aug 2010
Posts: 148
Location: The Greatest Country in the World
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| Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| spork_kitty wrote: |
Monied interests like Red Hat, SuSE, etc want these stressors to be pressed against other distros so they can scoop up the rest of the mindshare once things crumble thanks to the constantly moving FDO and XDG targets.
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Spot on ! Another problem I see with this is it also stifles innovation. Where the hell is the innovation when everyone does the same thing. I seriously wonder what would happen if one of the major money di$tro would have say chosen to stick with sysv or even use openrc and RH went forward with systemd.. Would definitely be interesting !
Unfortunately I work at an 800lb gorilla and its more than frustrating when decisions like this are made to follow the bandwagon... It stifles innovation. systemd kinda reminds me of the current trend in corporate IT, one project eating up (or in corporate buying) a bunch of others to become this huge monoculturerillaopoly. |
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virtguru
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 14 Aug 2010
Posts: 148
Location: The Greatest Country in the World
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| Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Oh another thing I found interesting , forgot who posted earlier with the freedesktop link, anyway , appears the case stems from a fedora feature request and looking at the 2 dev names there does not make me wonder one bit:
https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge/
| Quote: | | This is based on the Fedora feature for the same topic, put together by Harald Hoyer and Kay Sievers. This feature has been implemented successfully in Fedora 17. |
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spork_kitty
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Jul 2019
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| virtguru wrote: | Oh another thing I found interesting , forgot who posted earlier with the freedesktop link, anyway , appears the case stems from a fedora feature request and looking at the 2 dev names there does not make me wonder one bit:
https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge/
| Quote: | | This is based on the Fedora feature for the same topic, put together by Harald Hoyer and Kay Sievers. This feature has been implemented successfully in Fedora 17. |
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Yep. GregKH and Kay Sievers were also former maintainers of udev before they gave it to systemd. This was very much premeditated.
That's the fun part about the Internet; with enough time, all information gets out. It's just up to us to piece it together. |
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crocket
Guru
Joined: 29 Apr 2017
Posts: 558
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| Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Do we have a sane alternative to eudev? KDE packages seem to rely on udev directly. |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6069
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| crocket wrote: | | Do we have a sane alternative to eudev? KDE packages seem to rely on udev directly. |
What do you mean by sane? eudev should be 1:1 replaceable
--edit--
I decided to see...
so adding the needed use (temporarily)
1) adding to py27
| Code: | net-irc/telepathy-idle python_targets_python2_7
kde-apps/kig python_targets_python2_7 |
2) adding to licences
| Code: | | media-libs/faac MPEG-4 |
3) adding to make.conf
| Code: | wayland dbus qml widgets otr farstream screencast theora-v4l theora melt kdenlive frei0r v4l
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No blockers between my eudev and udev. Therefore KDE-Meta doesn't rely on udev, there is something else in your settings forcing udev to be pulled in. I suspect wayland
Have you explicitly set -systemd ?
| Code: | emerge kde-meta -va
* IMPORTANT: 3 news items need reading for repository 'gentoo'.
* Use eselect news read to view new items.
These are the packages that would be merged, in order:
Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild N ] sys-power/pm-quirks-20100619-r1::gentoo 10 KiB
[ebuild N ] dev-libs/libx86-1.1-r4::gentoo USE="-static-libs" 86 KiB
[ebuild N ] net-wireless/wireless-regdb-20190603::gentoo 23 KiB
[ebuild N ] net-dialup/ppp-scripts-0::gentoo 2 KiB
[ebuild N ] media-sound/gsm-1.0.13-r1::gentoo ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 64 KiB
[ebuild N ] games-board/gnuchess-6.2.5::gentoo 765 KiB
[ebuild N ] dev-libs/xapian-1.4.12:0/30::gentoo USE="glass inmemory remote -doc -static-libs" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" CPU_FLAGS_X86="sse sse2" 2,910 KiB
[ebuild N ] sci-libs/cln-1.3.4:1::gentoo USE="-doc -examples -static-libs" 1,252 KiB
[ebuild N ] net-libs/libotr-4.1.1::gentoo 641 KiB
[ebuild N ] sci-libs/fftw-3.3.8:3.0/3::gentoo USE="fortran openmp threads (-altivec) -doc -mpi (-neon) -quad -static-libs -test (-zbus)" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" CPU_FLAGS_X86="sse sse2 -avx -avx2 -fma3 -fma4" 4,014 KiB
[ebuild N ] media-fonts/hack-3.003::gentoo USE="X" 352 KiB
[ebuild N ] app-cdr/dvd+rw-tools-7.1-r3::gentoo 138 KiB
[ebuild N ] games-board/gnugo-3.9.1-r2::gentoo USE="readline" 3,133 KiB
[ebuild N ] sys-libs/slang-2.3.2::gentoo USE="pcre png readline zlib -cjk -static-libs" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 1,550 KiB
...
[ebuild N ] kde-apps/plasma-telepathy-meta-19.08.1:5::gentoo USE="gstreamer" 0 KiB
[ebuild N ] kde-apps/kdenetwork-meta-19.08.1:5::gentoo USE="telepathy -dropbox" 0 KiB
[ebuild N ] kde-apps/kde-apps-meta-19.08.1:5::gentoo USE="-accessibility -pim -sdk" 0 KiB
[ebuild N ] kde-apps/kde-meta-19.08.1:5::gentoo 0 KiB |
_________________
#define HelloWorld int
#define Int main()
#define Return printf
#define Print return
#include <stdio>
HelloWorld Int {
Return("Hello, world!\n");
Print 0;
Last edited by Naib on Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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crocket
Guru
Joined: 29 Apr 2017
Posts: 558
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| Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | crocket wrote: | | Do we have a sane alternative to eudev? KDE packages seem to rely on udev directly. |
What do you mean by sane? eudev should be 1:1 replaceable |
An alternative to both eudev and udev. |
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