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Ant P.
Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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 Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:57 pm Post subject: Is Profile 17.1 a move toward a Linux monoculture? |
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Split from Gentoo seems to be chasing nu Linux design (/usr merge) as both threads warrant seprate discussions. --pjp
| pjp wrote: |  Then it is a general problem within the Linux ecosystem. Which would appear to be an effort to achieve monoculture, with the vulnerabilities and risks of catastrophic failure associated with it. I'm not a marketer, so I'm sure they'd use different messaging. |
Profile 17.1 is already an explicit move toward such a monoculture, and yes, the end state is going to be one where upstreams don't even make a token effort to support anything but The RedHat/Canonical(*delete as appropriate) FHS instead of a well-thought-out one. |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6103
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Ant P. wrote: | | pjp wrote: | | Then it is a general problem within the Linux ecosystem. Which would appear to be an effort to achieve monoculture, with the vulnerabilities and risks of catastrophic failure associated with it. I'm not a marketer, so I'm sure they'd use different messaging. |
Profile 17.1 is already an explicit move toward such a monoculture, and yes, the end state is going to be one where upstreams don't even make a token effort to support anything but The RedHat/Canonical(*delete as appropriate) FHS instead of a well-thought-out one. |
++ on both posts
Edit to add: I was on no-multilib so the switch to 17.1 wouldn't have been terribly hard, but I modified it anyway because I didn't want to recompile things just because. I even left */lib linked to */lib64 and just removed the check for them being linked (some funky bash script  does the check on emerge).
Works perfectly well, though I suppose I could have just left it on profile 17.0 too.
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Gatsby
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 116
Location: 127.0.0.1
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Ant P. wrote: | | pjp wrote: | | Then it is a general problem within the Linux ecosystem. Which would appear to be an effort to achieve monoculture, with the vulnerabilities and risks of catastrophic failure associated with it. I'm not a marketer, so I'm sure they'd use different messaging. |
Profile 17.1 is already an explicit move toward such a monoculture, and yes, the end state is going to be one where upstreams don't even make a token effort to support anything but The RedHat/Canonical(*delete as appropriate) FHS instead of a well-thought-out one. |
Full ACK. ++
Therefore profile 17.1 has to be avoided and finally, if not avoidable, modified.
Regards, Gatsby
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8942
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Profile 17.1 has nothing to do at all with split /usr, please don't spread falsehoods and rile up users into running unsupported profiles.
Last edited by asturm on Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gatsby
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 116
Location: 127.0.0.1
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | | Profile 17.1 has nothing to do at all with this discussion, please don't spread falsehoods and rile up users into running unsupported profiles. |
Profile 17.1 has a lot to do with this discussion and anyone is free to run what he wants.
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8942
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Only as a result of your confirmation bias. Carefully pick your fights, Profile 17.1 is not it.
| Gatsby wrote: | | and anyone is free to run what he wants. |
I'm also free to reject your bugs in this case. |
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Gatsby
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 116
Location: 127.0.0.1
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | | Only as a result of your confirmation bias. Carefully pick your fights, Profile 17.1 is not it. |
Profile 17.1 is what it is: a step in the wrong direction, like it or not.
| asturm wrote: | | I'm also free to reject your bugs in this case. |
You are. You would not be addressed anyway.
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Gatsby wrote: | | asturm wrote: | | I'm also free to reject your bugs in this case. |
You are. You would not be addressed anyway. |
Thanks in advance then. |
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Gatsby
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 18 Jan 2010
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Location: 127.0.0.1
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | | Thanks in advance then. |
Not at all.
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Ant P.
Watchman
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8942
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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If you don't look beyond the initial comment of that tracker bug, then sure, that's your opinion. If you think that distinct library arch install paths are a key component of independence to every Linux distribution, then that's your opinion, sure. I, for one, think that's a ridiculous viewpoint. And hypocritical, as loss of compatibility is always bemoaned when broken by systemd - rightfully so - but quickly discarded when it serves to dig in against a chosen enemy. Debian, if I'm not mistaken, are still using their crazy multiarch subdirs, but systemd is what you get when you install it. Profile 17.1 won't stop you from doing anything with Gentoo what you have been doing so far.
There are probably thousands of broken build systems out there that were only working on Gentoo (or not) by chance of having that /usr/lib symlink available. We fixed hundreds of them in the process and arguably made a big contribution to the communities that way. |
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:40 am Post subject: |
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virtual/tmpfiles | Code: | # Copyright 1999-2018 Gentoo Authors
# Distributed under the terms of the GNU General Public License v2
EAPI=7
DESCRIPTION="Virtual to select between different tmpfiles.d handlers"
SLOT="0"
KEYWORDS="alpha amd64 arm arm64 hppa ia64 m68k ~mips ppc ppc64 s390 sh sparc x8>
RDEPEND="
|| (
sys-apps/faketmpfiles
sys-apps/opentmpfiles
)"
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sys-apps/faketmpfiles | Code: | # Copyright 1999-2018 Gentoo Authors
# Distributed under the terms of the GNU General Public License v3
EAPI=7
KEYWORDS="alpha amd64 arm arm64 hppa ia64 m68k ~mips ppc ppc64 s390 sh sparc x86 ~amd64-fbsd ~x86-fbsd"
DESCRIPTION="Fake utility to process systemd-style tmpfiles.d files, actually does nothing"
HOMEPAGE="nowhere"
LICENSE="GPL-3"
SLOT="0"
IUSE=""
RDEPEND=""
S="${WORKDIR}"
src_fetch() {
cp "${FILESDIR}"/* "${S}"
}
src_compile()
{
return
}
src_install() {
default
} |
sys-apps/faketmpfiles/files/tmpfiles | Code: | #!/bin/sh
# dummy executable
exit 0 |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6103
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:44 am Post subject: |
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I actually just added this
to package.provided, and that shut it up,
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 648
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:21 am Post subject: |
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virtual/tmpfiles/tmpfiles-0.ebuild
| Code: |
# Copyright 1999-2018 Gentoo Foundation
# Distributed under the terms of the GNU General Public License v2
EAPI=6
DESCRIPTION="Virtual to select between different tmpfiles.d handlers"
SLOT="0"
KEYWORDS="alpha amd64 arm arm64 hppa ia64 m68k ~mips ppc ppc64 s390 sh sparc x86 ~x64-cygwin ~amd64-fbsd ~x86-fbsd ~amd64-linux ~x86-linux"
RDEPEND="
|| (
sys-apps/openrc
sys-apps/opentmpfiles
sys-apps/systemd
)"
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | virtual/tmpfiles/tmpfiles-0.ebuild
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Better than mine, except my overlay removes systemd as a choice from all ebuilds.
Just noticed my dummy executable doesn't have a name, so nothing executes it. So it isn't necessary. |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6103
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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Well, if running an older openrc then you already have a "tmpfiles.sh" as part of it.
| Code: | $ dir /bin/tmpfiles
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 22 Sep 30 2018 /bin/tmpfiles -> /lib/rc/sh/tmpfiles.sh
$ eq b /lib/rc/sh/tmpfiles.sh
* Searching for /lib/rc/sh/tmpfiles.sh ...
sys-apps/openrc-0.13.11 (/lib64/rc/sh/tmpfiles.sh) |
I just linked the tmpfiles.sh that's part of openrc to /bin/tmpfiles and set opentmpfiles as provided.
No need for a change to either virtual/tmpfiles or a dummy open/fake tmpfiles.
This way if there is a system.d type file that needs to be executed, it gets executed AND the emerge process is satisfied too.
This is from openrc tmpfiles.sh
| Code: | # This is a reimplementation of the systemd tmpfiles.d code
# Control creation, deletion, and cleaning of volatile and temporary files |
and this is from opentmpfiles/tmpfiles
| Code: | # This is a reimplementation of the systemd tmpfiles.d code
# Control creation, deletion, and cleaning of volatile and temporary files |
Lot of silliness to remove it from openrc and then add it back by way of a separate package
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6103
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | | Profile 17.1 has nothing to do at all with split /usr, |
I'm sure that's the plan for 17.2 or maybe 18.0/19.0 
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8942
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | I'm sure that's the plan for 17.2 or maybe 18.0/19.0 |
Since a new profile will be necessary for that, at this point it would definitely be 19.0, yes. |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6103
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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I was just looking at the FHS 3.0 spec and what gentoo did with 17.0->17.1 seems to go against the standard, concerning lib being linked to either lib32 or lib64, when they exist, which they did/do under gentoo.
http://refspecs.linuxfoundation.org/FHS_3.0/fhs/index.html
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gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | Lot of silliness to remove it from openrc and then add it back by way of a separate package :roll: |
Is there some reason temporary files ought to be in an RC tool? Without knowing why it would be in there, it seems like it doesn't belong. In theory, it would seem to make more sense that a generic temporary file tool would be independent so that any init/RC tool didn't duplicate the general fucntion.
| Anon-E-moose wrote: | I was just looking at the FHS 3.0 spec and what gentoo did with 17.0->17.1 seems to go against the standard, concerning lib being linked to either lib32 or lib64, when they exist, which they did/do under gentoo.
http://refspecs.linuxfoundation.org/FHS_3.0/fhs/index.html |
A version of the baselayout ebuild tries to write to /usr/local (I still need to see about patching that). I think it's fair to say that "standards" are at best guidelines.
Gentoo does not consider the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard to be an authoritative standard, although much of our policy coincides with it.
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6103
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: | | Lot of silliness to remove it from openrc and then add it back by way of a separate package |
Is there some reason temporary files ought to be in an RC tool? Without knowing why it would be in there, it seems like it doesn't belong. In theory, it would seem to make more sense that a generic temporary file tool would be independent so that any init/RC tool didn't duplicate the general fucntion. |
But only openrc requires it/pulls it in. Which is why my original comment.
I agree that if other init systems used it, it would have made sense to factor it out of openrc.
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6103
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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And yet seemingly they consider RH (or as they say "other distros") to be an authoritative standard
As far as baselayout, I added this ">sys-apps/baselayout-2.4.1-r2" to package.mask a while back as I didn't want any further changes made to my filesystem.
If things need changing I'll do it by hand so that I know what's going on and why.
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gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | But only openrc requires it/pulls it in. Which is why my original comment.
I agree that if other init systems used it, it would have made sense to factor it out of openrc. |
That's strange. How are temporary files handled without openrc or systemd? If other programs rely on that capability, it would seem odd for openrc (or similar) to be a dependency. And if systemd has resulted in other programs expecting it to be available, then the generic availability of temporary file management is necessary.
| Anon-E-moose wrote: | And yet seemingly they consider RH (or as they say "other distros") to be an authoritative standard
As far as baselayout, I added this ">sys-apps/baselayout-2.4.1-r2" to package.mask a while back as I didn't want any further changes made to my filesystem.
If things need changing I'll do it by hand so that I know what's going on and why. |
i'm only blocking >=2.6 and hoping nothing major happens. At some point, I'm anticipating it is going to become too difficult to try and work around. That's not why I have an OS, and that's mostly what I've been doing for a while.
As for the "authoritative RH standard," RH is the 800-lb gorilla. Maybe there's a conspiracy, but knowing what little I'm trying to manage around, I'd not want to be doing that as a developer. General issues are one thing, but how much of your free, volunteer time would you want to spend coding around systemd / RHisms?
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | As far as baselayout, I added this ">sys-apps/baselayout-2.4.1-r2" to package.mask a while back as I didn't want any further changes made to my filesystem.
If things need changing I'll do it by hand so that I know what's going on and why. |
Amen!
| Code: | tony@MSI ~ $ grep baselayout /etc/portage/*.mask
sys-apps/baselayout::gentoo # changes PATH + ?
tony@MSI ~ $ equery w baselayout
/var/lib/layman/oldgentoo/sys-apps/baselayout/baselayout-2.3.ebuild
tony@MSI ~ $ grep openrc /etc/portage/*.mask
sys-apps/openrc::gentoo # stick with 0.17
tony@MSI ~ $ equery w openrc
/var/lib/layman/oldgentoo/sys-apps/openrc/openrc-0.17.ebuild
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389292
Guru
Joined: 26 Mar 2019
Posts: 504
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| nowadays people are able to find controversy even in directory structure.. |
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