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__bjoern
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Joined: 12 Oct 2014
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 Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Actually, I use systemd as well. My only argument is that if a particular tool isn't useful for the majority of the userbase, it should be a separate component. |
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axl
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Location: Romania
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| __bjoern wrote: | | Actually, I use systemd as well. My only argument is that if a particular tool isn't useful for the majority of the userbase, it should be a separate component. |
people complain about a tone of things. spidermonkey comes to mind. why java this stupid thing.
fine... write another one.
the systemd guy(s) (depending on the way of thought) actually tackled a way to port the home directories. if what they are doing is wrong, don't use it. for us gentoo people, it's a useflag. or smth. I don't know what it is coz I don't use it yet.
but it kinda sounds like something I want to use. between 2 raspberry pi's and 3 desktops, I want my user to be consistent. I use NFS now for that, but I don't mind learning something new.
I had 2 points.
1. I don't know, but i'm willing to try
2. people requested it.
Maybe I should have started with 2. again... reading comments on youtube and facebook... newbies trying linux are concerned with keeping their homes. I don't know how homed will help them with that task, but from what I am reading... that's the general idea. And it's not a bad idea. I'm biased. I have nfs. And just because I have my own ways, doesn't mean other people should not get a simpler way.
One thing I am sure of. If I don't like something... I dont have to use it. But I shouldn't be able to stop other people from using it.
And when it comes to systemd... you don't have to use it. People complain that it creeps in your system. It doesn't. If it does... it's because it higher functions of a desktop where it actually makes sense to use it. like bluetooth and usb stuff. it makes sense to use it. but if you are root and spend your day in a text console... there's no creeping in. it's that desktop stuff that pulls those dependencies in. and for good reason. you have a desktop. u want to click the bluetooth icon and connect your whatever.
Gentoo people are biased. All of them are root. All of them built their system from the ground. The idea that they are not root is alien to them. But joe sixpack that installed linux yesterday... |
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Tony0945
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Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Ooh! flamebait, Yummy. "They're roolin' out the guns again. 'aroo! 'aroo! ..."
Veteran of the flamewars here. Refuse to re-enlist. |
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axl
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| You are making it a flame war. it doesn't have to be. |
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6069
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: |
I thought this thread was a joke!
Now i think it will be in profile 17.2 |
If you really did think this thread was a joke, you are aware the systemd-repartd is also real and systemd will re-partition/resize
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erm67
l33t
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 653
Location: EU
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Apparently it is optional, it is not a clean install however since I re-used the homes of the previous install. I think I will play a bit with that.
| Code: |
[erm67@localhost-live ~]$ ps -ef|grep homed
root 677 1 0 08:55 ? 00:00:00 /usr/lib/systemd/systemd-homed
[erm67@localhost-live ~]$ ps -ef|grep resiz
erm67 16811 5982 0 13:39 pts/2 00:00:00 grep --color=auto resiz
[erm67@localhost-live ~]$ cat /etc/passwd|grep erm
erm67:x:1000:1000:erm67:/home/erm67:/bin/bash
[erm67@localhost-live ~]$ userdbctl|grep erm
erm67 regular 1000 1000 erm67 /home/erm67 /bin/bash
[erm67@localhost-live ~]$ homectl
No homes.
[erm67@localhost-live ~]$ cat /etc/redhat-release
Fedora release 32 (Thirty Two) |
| Code: |
[erm67@localhost-live ~]$ man systemd-homed
SYSTEMD-HOMED.SERVICE(8) systemd-homed.service SYSTEMD-HOMED.SERVICE(8)
NAME
systemd-homed.service, systemd-homed - Home Area/User Account Manager
SYNOPSIS
systemd-homed.service
/usr/lib/systemd/systemd-homed
DESCRIPTION
systemd-homed is a system service that [b]may[/b] be used to create, remove, change or inspect home areas (directories and network mounts and real or loopback block devices with a filesystem, optionally encrypted).
Most of systemd-homed's functionality is accessible through the homectl(1) command.
See the Home Directories[1] documentation for details about the format and design of home areas managed by systemd-homed.service.
Each home directory managed by systemd-homed.service synthesizes a local user and group. These are made available to the system using the User/Group Record Lookup API via Varlink[2], and thus may be browsed with
userdbctl(1).
SEE ALSO
systemd(1), homectl(1), userdbctl(1)
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USERDBCTL(1) userdbctl USERDBCTL(1)
NAME
userdbctl - Inspect users, groups and group memberships
SYNOPSIS
userdbctl [OPTIONS...] {COMMAND} [NAME...]
DESCRIPTION
userdbctl may be used to inspect user and groups (as well as group memberships) of the system. This client utility inquires user/group information provided by various system services, both operating on JSON
user/group records (as defined by the JSON User Record[1] and JSON Group Record[2] definitions), and classic UNIX NSS/glibc user and group records. This tool is primarily a client to the User/Group Record Lookup API
via Varlink[3].
OPTIONS
The following options are understood:
--output=MODE
Choose the output mode, takes one of "classic", "friendly", "table", "json". If "classic", an output very close to the format of /etc/passwd or /etc/group is generated. If "friendly" a more comprehensive and user
friendly, human readable output is generated; if "table" a minimal, tabular output is generated; if "json" a JSON formatted output is generated. Defaults to "friendly" if a user/group is specified on the command
line, "table" otherwise.
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https://systemd.io/USER_GROUP_API/
| Code: |
HOMECTL(1) homectl HOMECTL(1)
NAME
homectl - Create, remove, change or inspect home directories
SYNOPSIS
homectl [OPTIONS...] {COMMAND} [NAME...]
DESCRIPTION
homectl may be used to create, remove, change or inspect a user's home directory. It's primarily a command interfacing with systemd-homed.service(8) which manages home directories of users.
Home directories managed by systemd-homed.service are self-contained, and thus include the user's full metadata record in the home's data storage itself, making them easy to migrate between machines. In particular, a
home directory describes a matching user record, and every user record managed by systemd-homed.service also implies existence and encapsulation of a home directory. The user account and home directory become the
same concept.
The following backing storage mechanisms are supported:
· An individual LUKS2 encrypted loopback file for a user, stored in /home/*.home. At login the file system contained in this files is mounted, after the LUKS2 encrypted volume has been attached. The user's password
is identical to the encryption passphrase of the LUKS2 volume. Access to data without preceeding user authentication is thus not possible, even for the system administrator. This storage mechanism provides the
strongest data security and is thus recommended.
· Similar, but the LUKS2 encrypted file system is located on regular block device, such as an USB storage stick. In this mode home directories and all data they include are nicely migratable between machines,
simply by plugging the USB stick into different systems at different times.
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Ok boomer
True ignorance is not the absence of knowledge, but the refusal to acquire it.
Ab esse ad posse valet, a posse ad esse non valet consequentia
My fediverse account: @erm67@erm67.dynu.net
Last edited by erm67 on Fri May 01, 2020 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 11:54 am Post subject: |
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lots of things are "optional" in pottering speak... There was a time that udev was just being pulled in ... until he directly threatened Gentoo
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pino
n00b
Joined: 01 May 2020
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: |
Add to that the fact that people nowadays just look for guides on youtube and you want one linux to resemble another. And WE DO WANT THAT. if we love linux, I think we want that.
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| axl wrote: |
Read comments on facebook and youtube.
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I'm new here (though not new to Linux), as you can see. Just asking out of curiosity: Are there many people here, who consider fb and yt as our source of wisdom? |
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erm67
l33t
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 653
Location: EU
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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So this is the protocol used by systemd-homed:
https://varlink.org/
This is getting interesting ...
| Quote: | Varlink is an interface description format and protocol that aims to make services accessible to both humans and machines in the simplest feasible way.
A varlink interface combines the classic UNIX command line options, STDIN/OUT/ERROR text formats, man pages, service metadata and provides the equivalent over a single file descriptor, a.k.a. “FD3”.
Varlink is plain-text, type-safe, discoverable, self-documenting, remotable, testable, easy to debug. Varlink is accessible from any programming environment. See the Ideals page for more. And everybody likes Screenshots. |
Basically it is the same protocol used by podman so I guees that using homes handled by systemd-homed it is possible to let containers run by podman access safely the home dirs (or at lest obtain ther informations needed to do so).
| pino wrote: |
I'm new here (though not new to Linux), as you can see. Just asking out of curiosity: Are there many people here, who consider fb and yt as our source of wisdom? |
For some people those are the only source of wisdom, having their mind completely controlled by the corporations that run fb & yt they can be free since don't have to think, big corps will think for them ..
_________________
Ok boomer
True ignorance is not the absence of knowledge, but the refusal to acquire it.
Ab esse ad posse valet, a posse ad esse non valet consequentia
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tld
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Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 1848
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | lots of things are "optional" in pottering speak... There was a time that udev was just being pulled in ... until he directly threatened Gentoo |
Exactly. For example: Does "optional" mean that, if you don't use it, you can create users with exiting tools like useradd and shit will just work using shadow etc as expected? I would hope so but wouldn't bet a lot on it.
This is an insane amount of baggage for a feature essentially nobody wants. Total BS. The fact that by design it can't possibly work with things like ssh (and I have to think there's NO real fix for that aside from the ssh devs adding shit they should flat out reject) tells you everything you need to know about LP.
Tom |
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Tony0945
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Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | If you really did think this thread was a joke, you are aware the systemd-repartd is also real and systemd will re-partition/resize |
My God! He really is morphing Linux into a Windoze clone! Next he will subsume the Gnome Desktop. The OS constellation will be Windows, Systemd, MacOs, Linux and Freebsd.
I would go over to Freebsd if Lumina didn't lose all it's settings every time it is updated.
So sick of moving stuff that worked away from from systemd instead of doing original work.
Last edited by Tony0945 on Fri May 01, 2020 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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axl
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| pino wrote: | | I'm new here (though not new to Linux), as you can see. Just asking out of curiosity: Are there many people here, who consider fb and yt as our source of wisdom? |
Welcome to gentoo forums. That's a good question. And the short answer is yes.
I also happen to think that it's not the best thing to look for answers on youtube or facebook, but people are the way that people are. Youtube because visual. Facebook because social.
And systemd is not a gentoo specific thing either. So, people just look for answers wherever they feel comfortable. You can just look up on facebook the word linux and see how many members those groups have. Forums like this have active members in the hundreds, and that is generous. Compared to facebook its like a drop in an ocean. And by my estimation, there are even more people flocking on youtube.
Again, it's not about what I think, or we think. I was taught 3 things when I started my run with linux. man, howto (the original howto) and mc. But that was in 1996. Today, in 2020, people might look for answers in other places. And it's not for me or us to judge. |
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axl
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | Next he will subsume the Gnome Desktop. |
software is written by devs. did you ever chat with one? U know... they are on irc. I had the pleasure of trying that with a few gnome devs. Do you actually think there's a conspiracy? |
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figueroa
Advocate
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 3007
Location: Edge of marsh USA
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | pino wrote: | | I'm new here (though not new to Linux), as you can see. Just asking out of curiosity: Are there many people here, who consider fb and yt as our source of wisdom? |
Welcome to gentoo forums. That's a good question. And the short answer is yes.
|
I don't buy that. There are NOT many people HERE who look to fb and yt for wisdom. Do a poll.
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hp pavilion hpe h8-1260t/2AB5; spinning rust x3
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axl
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Location: Romania
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| figueroa wrote: | | I don't buy that. There are NOT many people HERE who look to fb and yt for wisdom. Do a poll. |
I was looking at the words used. And you are right. There are not many people _HERE_ that think that is a good source of wisdom. But then again... there must be like 100-200 people here, and hundreds of thousands of people looking for answers who are not here. so... |
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Tony0945
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Not a conspiracy, just a corporate plan.
When red hat became a for-profit company, their attitude changed.
Now they are part of IBM. I think systemd is their vehicle to challenge Microsoft with a clone product. Haven't looked at the licenses, but even with a free license, they can sell support services for boocoo bucks. My sister was paying Norton $200 a year for "protection". You know, like Mafia protection. I was shocked to discover that she continued this "protection" after I switched her laptop to Gentoo!
"But I'll lose my virus protection!" My daughter answered with "Linux doesn't get windows viruses and Norton Protector can't protect Linux"
But I guarantee there will be systemd viruses and IBM will sell protection and service. Only they have a ghost of a chance of diagnosing problems.
In the dawn of the PC when Bill gates was a small timer ripping off the Naval postgraduate School and cloning CP/M with more user friendly commands, IBM could have been the Microsoft of today. As AT&T could have been with Unix and their own far superior 32-bit microchip. Those two giants missed the boat, apparently through corporate arthritis.
Ironically, IBM chose Intel instead of Motorola, who had a superior chip, for the IBM PC because Intel was small and weak and could be bullied by IBM. Now Intel is a mega-corporation and Motorola is a shell.
32-bit AT&T chip running Unix on a desktop? Damn right I would have bought it. Instead we got MicroCrap with the pretty blue screen, the amazing rebooting machine. |
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axl
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | Not a conspiracy, just a corporate plan.
When red hat became a for-profit company, their attitude changed.
Now they are part of IBM. I think systemd is their vehicle to challenge Microsoft with a clone product. Haven't looked at the licenses, but even with a free license, they can sell support services for boocoo bucks. My sister was paying Norton $200 a year for "protection". You know, like Mafia protection. I was shocked to discover that she continued this "protection" after I switched her laptop to Gentoo!
"But I'll lose my virus protection!" My daughter answered with "Linux doesn't get windows viruses and Norton Protector can't protect Linux"
But I guarantee there will be systemd viruses and IBM will sell protection and service. Only they have a ghost of a chance of diagnosing problems.
In the dawn of the PC when Bill gates was a small timer ripping off the Naval postgraduate School and cloning CP/M with more user friendly commands, IBM could have been the Microsoft of today. As AT&T could have been with Unix and their own far superior 32-bit microchip. Those two giants missed the boat, apparently through corporate arthritis.
Ironically, IBM chose Intel instead of Motorola, who had a superior chip, for the IBM PC because Intel was small and weak and could be bullied by IBM. Now Intel is a mega-corporation and Motorola is a shell.
32-bit AT&T chip running Unix on a desktop? Damn right I would have bought it. Instead we got MicroCrap with the pretty blue screen, the amazing rebooting machine. |
I never get tired of pointing out that it's not the same thing. Microsoft was a binary only, closed source, thing. Systemd isn't.
Anyway... I feel what you are saying. I hate M$ too.
But that doesn't mean we can linger on forever in 70's unix. The fact that you can change useflags, and go into sources and check or change everything, makes systemd NOT m$. Corporate... sure. M$... not so much. |
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pjp
Administrator
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| pino wrote: | | I'm new here (though not new to Linux), as you can see. Just asking out of curiosity: Are there many people here, who consider fb and yt as our source of wisdom? |
I wouldn't expect many, but some probably do. Others prefer the Old Guard, such as IBM, RH or even Microsoft. Yet others may be critical of Youtube and revere Google.
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axl
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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to be honest, I've been secretly wishing for a network infrastructure to replace passwd/group/shadow in etc. virtual users. I don't like adding real users to any of my systems. the programs I love most are cyrus-imapd and postfix which have users (in my case) in sql.
and this is the opinion of a guy that doesn't look for answers on fb or yt.
it's not that passwd & group & shadow will become defunct. it's that ... users could use something else. and if it's portable and networked... even better. root is still root. that will never change. |
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erm67
l33t
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 653
Location: EU
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: |
When red hat became a for-profit company, their attitude changed. |
RedfHat was founded as a for profit companyfrom the beginning in 1993  ...
| axl wrote: | to be honest, I've been secretly wishing for a network infrastructure to replace passwd/group/shadow in etc. virtual users. I don't like adding real users to any of my systems. the programs I love most are cyrus-imapd and postfix which have users (in my case) in sql.
and this is the opinion of a guy that doesn't look for answers on fb or yt.
it's not that passwd & group & shadow will become defunct. it's that ... users could use something else. and if it's portable and networked... even better. root is still root. that will never change. |
In fact that would be great expecially if it possible to interact with it using API instead of CLI commands and it is backward compatible will all existing software.
And apparently varlink (the interface used by homed) could be the replacement for dbus (that sucks)
https://www.slideshare.net/JeremyBrown37/adventures-with-podman-and-varlink
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Ok boomer
True ignorance is not the absence of knowledge, but the refusal to acquire it.
Ab esse ad posse valet, a posse ad esse non valet consequentia
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tld
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Posts: 1848
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | I never get tired of pointing out that it's not the same thing. Microsoft was a binary only, closed source, thing. Systemd isn't. |
...and that by the way is about as close to meaningless as anything could get.
Technically yea, it's open source, but in reality LP/Redhat have total control over it. What's anyone going to do?...fork it? You'd have to be insane to even think you could ever "fix" that cluster f*** as it's design is broken from the ground up. One of the devs on the Devuan forums referred to it as "proprietary open source"...bingo.
EDIT: The reality is that the only thing accomplished by having access to the systemd source is that the black hats get to hunt down all the vulnerabilities nobody else knows about yet  .
Tom
Last edited by tld on Fri May 01, 2020 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tony0945
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| erm67 wrote: | | RedfHat was founded as a for profit companyfrom the beginning in 1993 ... |
As I recall it was a non-profit first than switched sometime in the late '90s. |
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erm67
l33t
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 653
Location: EU
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| Posted: Sat May 02, 2020 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | erm67 wrote: | | RedfHat was founded as a for profit companyfrom the beginning in 1993 ... |
As I recall it was a non-profit first than switched sometime in the late '90s. |
The first public release was called Red Hat Commercial Linux in the early 90s, they sold it with books and journals and made money with support. The distro itself was free but books and support wasn't, the company always was for profit.
The "free" version was discontinued in 2004:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120207100441/http://www.fusionauthority.com/news/3946-free-versions-of-red-hat-linux-to-be-discontinued.htm
_________________
Ok boomer
True ignorance is not the absence of knowledge, but the refusal to acquire it.
Ab esse ad posse valet, a posse ad esse non valet consequentia
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Tony0945
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| Posted: Sat May 02, 2020 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Rhey had an IPO in 1999. I had an e-mail about it. They said they did it to get out of the restrictions of being a non-profit so they could "serve the community better". |
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axl
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| Posted: Sat May 02, 2020 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| tld wrote: | | axl wrote: | | I never get tired of pointing out that it's not the same thing. Microsoft was a binary only, closed source, thing. Systemd isn't. |
...and that by the way is about as close to meaningless as anything could get.
Technically yea, it's open source, but in reality LP/Redhat have total control over it. What's anyone going to do?...fork it? You'd have to be insane to even think you could ever "fix" that cluster f*** as it's design is broken from the ground up. One of the devs on the Devuan forums referred to it as "proprietary open source"...bingo.
EDIT: The reality is that the only thing accomplished by having access to the systemd source is that the black hats get to hunt down all the vulnerabilities nobody else knows about yet .
Tom |
I'm sorry you feel that way. Perhaps there is no surprise that I don't feel the same way.
When I don't understand something, or want to change something, I go to the sources. There are several threads in these forums attesting to that fact. Add to that the fact that when it comes to M$ there are no sources to fall back to and that is why I feel that way.
Maybe I'm a blackhat and I don't even know it. I don't know how to react in a constructive way. Let's just agree to disagree. |
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