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soparla
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Joined: 21 Aug 2018
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Location: Florida
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Conditional_Zenith
Apprentice
Joined: 22 Sep 2004
Posts: 157
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Another one of these threads. Gentoo has been dead ever since I installed it in 2004. |
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jserink
Veteran
Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 1008
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| Conditional_Zenith wrote: | | Another one of these threads. Gentoo has been dead ever since I installed it in 2004. |
yah.
:)
I'm still here.
John |
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figueroa
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
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Location: Edge of marsh USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:08 am Post subject: |
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I've been using Gentoo, and only Gentoo, as my primary desktop since 2004, as well as for my local and deployed servers; mainly business use, sysadmin platform, web development. Gentoo meets all of my needs. I don't play games.
_________________
Andy Figueroa
hp pavilion hpe h8-1260t/2AB5; spinning rust x3
i7-2600 @ 3.40GHz; 16 gb; Radeon HD 7570
amd64/23.0/split-usr/desktop (stable), OpenRC, -systemd -pulseaudio -uefi |
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paintchip
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| figueroa wrote: | | I've been using Gentoo, and only Gentoo, as my primary desktop since 2004, as well as for my local and deployed servers; mainly business use, sysadmin platform, web development. Gentoo meets all of my needs. I don't play games. |
I do sometimes play games and Gentoo has been amazing for it, especially Paradox Interactive's more resent releases. Gentoo seems to be doing pretty well for being "nearly dead." |
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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paintchip,
Gentoo has been dying or nearly dead since I moved to it in May 2002
Reports of it death are "greatly exaggerated". :)
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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sunova
n00b
Joined: 07 Feb 2020
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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First, I consider myself as a hated one on the IRC channel 
I've been thinking about package shortages all along.
The problem is in the core, package manager, Portage. Writing ebuilds can be over complicated, because of all the complexities those bashrc, env, ebuild phases, eclasses, etc add to them. E.g. someone wants to write a simple hook. It might seem naive and trivial to you, but not everybody wants to create a bashrc script, add a "[[ EBUILD_PHASE=blah ]] && do some stuff" bash script to simply add a variable to /etc/env.d (do we have an eclass for this? I don't know! Am I supposed to know? It's supposed to be a "simple hook" FFS... ).
And the contribution can be impossible sometimes (this may be the reason why person in the previous example is not willing to modify the ebuild itself). All those dev/maintainer/proxy maintainer layers prevent the contribution of many people who are not highly experienced to be considered as professional yet not too dumb to be useless. You might suggest to "set up your own overlay" but it's the second reason I prefer a simple hook, as maintaining a package on your own overlay can be painful, especially when your change can't be proposed for merging to the main overlay.
For you to better perceive my point, please have a look at the development model of Guix. Everyone can contribute in some way.
More about maintaining an ebuild, why don't you write some good utilities to e.g. extract dependencies from a configure script and translate them to their Gentoo counterparts? Why don't you think about a CI/CD template for packages to make new integrations faster for overlay owners as well? A simple pipeline that searches for the latest release, downloads the artifact, tries to apply an ebuild template, update XDEPEND variables according to build system metadata, modify configure/make scripts to eliminate all >/dev/null parts to catch possible bugs faster, build and test it regardless of RESTRICT=test?
Some missing features are trivial. I don't know how portage traverses the dependency tree, but hey can't you at least do it in some more dynamic way? When I issue emerge -NuDp @world, and check everything and want to emerge -NuD @world, the graph and paths are the same. Can't you cache some pathways and reuse them later? You just waste time and CPU cycles of the users.
Finally, attitudes towards feedback/suggestions are interesting to me. Most of the times IRC people jump in front of you and say: "You are not supposed to do it in this way". You claim that it's a meta distribution. How come you decide how people should/shouldn't do it? Yet I'm only making a suggestion, I'm not pointing a gun towards your head, nor I'm saying it's your responsibility to do it in the way I say. Feedbacks are primarily signs of interest, not disgust  |
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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sunova,
You have made some good suggestions. The unfortunate answer as to "why not" is NIH and personalities. By the later, I mean someone high placed takes any suggestion of change as a challenge to his/her status and authority. I worked for 55 years before retiring, nearly half in government and half in private industry with most of the latter in mega-corporations. My experience boils down to the observation that "scum rises to the top." Organizational efficiency and success is achieved in spite of upper management, not as claimed, because of upper management.
Ebuild analysis could indeed be better. What does "dependency bad 127" mean? |
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jserink
Veteran
Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 1008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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There is a a learning curve, i'll grant you that. But, this is a Unix variant so that is expected, no?
I started with linux 25 years ago using SUSE.....but i realised i wasn't leaning linux, i was leaning YAST.
So i dumped SUSE.
And the thing was, linux comes with gcc so why on earth would you have someone else compiling the code for you? If you want to use pre-compiled binaries, there is this product out of Redmond Washington....
So i arrived here, 20 or so years ago.
You could go the Linux From Scratch route but that requires loads of secretarial work in regards to what is installed, what depends on what etc....enter portage.
Is it perfect? no.
But it works.
i'm going to learn about ebuilds, its on my list after i retire.
cheers,
john |
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CaptainBlood
Advocate
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 3642
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| sunova wrote: | | IRC people jump in front of you and say: "You are not supposed to do it in this way". |
Such behavior can be found elsewhere, e.g. on the forum. Could it be the same buddies?
| jserink wrote: | You could go the Linux From Scratch route but that requires loads of secretarial work in regards to what is installed, what depends on what etc....enter portage.
Is it perfect? no.
But it works. |
+1, gentoo could be used as dependency model for building LFS. | jserink wrote: | | There is a learning curve. |
Ebuild writing related pages aren't easy reading. I guess their usage will improve over time.
Thks 4 ur attention, interest & support. |
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figueroa
Advocate
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 2966
Location: Edge of marsh USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| sunova wrote: | | First, I consider myself as a hated one on the IRC channel |
I can see why from the rest of your rant. In order to have influence, the first step is to play well with others and make friends.
Welcome.
_________________
Andy Figueroa
hp pavilion hpe h8-1260t/2AB5; spinning rust x3
i7-2600 @ 3.40GHz; 16 gb; Radeon HD 7570
amd64/23.0/split-usr/desktop (stable), OpenRC, -systemd -pulseaudio -uefi |
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Hu
Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 21780
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| sunova wrote: | | The problem is in the core, package manager, Portage. Writing ebuilds can be over complicated, because of all the complexities those bashrc, env, ebuild phases, eclasses, etc add to them. E.g. someone wants to write a simple hook. It might seem naive and trivial to you, but not everybody wants to create a bashrc script, add a "[[ EBUILD_PHASE=blah ]] && do some stuff" bash script to simply add a variable to /etc/env.d (do we have an eclass for this? I don't know! Am I supposed to know? It's supposed to be a "simple hook" FFS... ). |
In your opinion, how should a simple hook be done? | sunova wrote: | | Finally, attitudes towards feedback/suggestions are interesting to me. Most of the times IRC people jump in front of you and say: "You are not supposed to do it in this way". You claim that it's a meta distribution. How come you decide how people should/shouldn't do it? |
In some cases, "Don't do it that way" is exactly the correct response, because the elaborated form is "Don't do it that way, because your problem can be solved more simply by doing X instead." Now, if the response was "Don't do it that way" and there was no explanation as to why not, then the response is not helpful. Without context, I cannot say which scenario you encountered. |
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Hu wrote: | | Now, if the response was "Don't do it that way" and there was no explanation as to why not, then the response is not helpful. |
Do anyone really explains the "Do it this way"? Generally no, you want list files in a package "equery f package", do you really have time to explains why using equery would be better than another method?
Why the case "don't do it that way" cannot be use like that too?, either you have explains it millions times, and someone could seek the why not if he wants, or just because it is "natural" to see the way you are doing is totally wrong.
Would you be shock to get a "don't do it that way" answer to "I place a piece of wood on my nails and I jump on it to drive them in", do anyone have need to explains why it is wrong?
It is an helpful answer, even the user have no idea why it was helpful, he might consider it helpful and seek himself why you are telling him don't do it that way. I'm sure he will find fast why a hammer may help.
But while user may take simply a "use a hammer" answer without any need to get the why ; most of the time they won't find acceptable to get a "don't do it this way" answer without the reason.
The real answer exist : if anyone tells you "use equery" and someone think a better method exist, he will post it
If you get a "don't use it that way" and nobody else disagree or giving you the good "way", it is mostly because there's no better way to help you ; either because your post was construct in a way that explaining you would be going against you and you don't want explains something to someone knowing from start he won't agree with it.
Or just because it is obvious and nobody should have to gives you the why.
For me, sunova attitude show the explains of why he is not welcome on irc and why people would prefer giving a short answer than a full explain. |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54396
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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sunova,
Three points on your post.
a) After the nipple, all interfaces need to be learned.
Read the devmanual
b) | sunova wrote: | | Why don't you think about a CI/CD template ... |
There is no 'you' here' only us. That makes you one of us.
c) All gentoo contributors are volunteers. Patches are always welcome.
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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duane
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 193
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| If gentoo is dying, then I must be a necrophile, since I keep coming back. |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54396
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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duane,
Nobody ever leaves Gentoo, they just stray for a while. :)
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
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sunova
n00b
Joined: 07 Feb 2020
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | sunova,
You have made some good suggestions. The unfortunate answer as to "why not" is NIH and personalities. By the later, I mean someone high placed takes any suggestion of change as a challenge to his/her status and authority. I worked for 55 years before retiring, nearly half in government and half in private industry with most of the latter in mega-corporations. My experience boils down to the observation that "scum rises to the top." Organizational efficiency and success is achieved in spite of upper management, not as claimed, because of upper management.
|
Experience is gold, it's wise of admins to make you their advocate.
| figueroa wrote: | I can see why from the rest of your rant. In order to have influence, the first step is to play well with others and make friends.
Welcome. |
I'm aged enough to get the advice behind your words and yes you're right, but don't expect a Gen Z ppl to smile when you call their words "rant". It's not 1983.
| Hu wrote: | | In your opinion, how should a simple hook be done? |
They should just be defined well. A hook I suggest should not be a part of the package installation process, it's executed before/after installing/removing/updating a package, therefore someone should be able to write a hook without knowing anything about ebuild phases and other internals. Pacman hooks are good examples. Yet adding too much keyword and making a semi-DSL is not good, that's among what makes systemd a crap.
| Hu wrote: | | In some cases, "Don't do it that way" is exactly the correct response, because the elaborated form is "Don't do it that way, because your problem can be solved more simply by doing X instead." Now, if the response was "Don't do it that way" and there was no explanation as to why not, then the response is not helpful. Without context, I cannot say which scenario you encountered. |
As you said it might depend on the case, there is no right or wrong way of doing something, but people who are here are I believe enough experienced to leverage the flexibility of a "meta distribution". They could have stuck to Arch.
| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | There is no 'you' here' only us. That makes you one of us. |
My pleasure, sir.
| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | All Gentoo contributors are volunteers. Patches are always welcome. |
I'm still learning, I hope someday my efforts accompany my, so said, rants. |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54396
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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sunova,
Posting here is a contribution to Gentoo.
You ask questions, make suggestions and so on.
The questions and answers will help others.
That makes you one of us.
Everyone contributes according to their skills, which change with time.
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3175
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, it's THIS time again.
Gentoo's been dying for... how long, exactly by now? Probably long before I came here over a decade ago 
I guess we've all kinda got used to it.
At this pace, I will surely be very surprised if it actually stops kicking at some point.
Anyway:
| Tony0945 wrote: | | I worked for 55 years before retiring, nearly half in government and half in private industry with most of the latter in mega-corporations. My experience boils down to the observation that "scum rises to the top." |
Long time ago SteveL linked THIS EXPLANATION. A fascinating read, highly recommend.
| sunova wrote: | | Why don't you think about a CI/CD template |
Actually, we do. There is such a project. It's called Catalyst, and it provides nightly stage3 builds basically all of us use for bootstrapping our own systems.
It caught my eye some time ago, but ultimately I've never made friends with it, so let me just point you HERE |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54396
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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szatox,
Thank you for that link. Douglas Adams said it if fewer words but without saying why.
| Quote: | | Anyone capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. |
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: | | Tony0945 wrote: | | I worked for 55 years before retiring, nearly half in government and half in private industry with most of the latter in mega-corporations. My experience boils down to the observation that "scum rises to the top." |
Long time ago SteveL linked THIS EXPLANATION. A fascinating read, highly recommend. |
I thought he spent too much time reinforcing his opinion of organization by using oversimplified and redundant examples. Early in the essay he comments on recognizing the "necessity" of organization, but does a disservice to his credible point by never meaningfully addressing the issue in more detail. Not all that rises to the top is scum, just as not all that sinks to the bottom is fecal. More concerning to me are the complicit / complacent / apathetic masses of mediocrity in the middle.
_________________
Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | Not all that rises to the top is scum, just as not all that sinks to the bottom is fecal. |
No, but it's not business skill or vision that gets you to the top. It's the same skills you need to be a Mafia Don or Drug lord.
People in the middle are mostly there for the money. I agree with one of my colleagues in software development. "And they pay me! I'd do it for free if I had to." When he was alive my Dad would say conversationally, "Hows work? Just work, huh?" and nod. I couldn't explain to him that I enjoyed my job and dreamed in code. I kept a notebook and pen on my nightstand to write it down in the morning before I got. i was more productive asleep than awake. Less distraction.
My wife who worked on and off as a sales clerk and fast food worker once told me about a show on feminism and the glass ceiling. "If I had a profession like our lawyer and doctor (both female) or a teacher, it would be different, but I'd rather be a housewife than a sales clerk, except when we needed the money." I believe that applies to most men too. Who enjoys driving strangers in heavy traffic? Pouring booze for lushes? Heaving trash into garbage trucks? Replacing toilets? I enjoyed my various jobs laying out repair facilities, analyzing failure reports, modeling hydraulic systems, writing code. I'm lucky.
When I worked in a television factory (obviously half a century ago) and as a mechanic/ET, I enjoyed the company of my fellows, but not the actual job and I know only a few who did. They were mechanics/ET's who enjoyed the technical puzzle of what was wrong with a machine. Most of the time, it's obvious, a broken belt, a seized bearing, a shorted sensor. Sometimes it's a real puzzle. Like many of the support threads here. |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | No, but it's not business skill or vision that gets you to the top. |
I don't believe that has been demonstrated to the point where it can be claimed as fact.
| Tony0945 wrote: | | It's the same skills you need to be a Mafia Don or Drug lord. |
Leadership of any organization is naturally going to look similar from one to the next. It is generically applicable as a base / root / foundational concept.
| Tony0945 wrote: | | My wife who worked on and off as a sales clerk and fast food worker once told me about a show on feminism and the glass ceiling. "If I had a profession like our lawyer and doctor (both female) or a teacher, it would be different, but I'd rather be a housewife than a sales clerk, except when we needed the money." |
I'm not sure "what would be different." Professional level career tracks also meet with a resistance to working more hours (or at all) when the decision is made to become a parent. Sometimes the decision is made later when the parent realizes they'd rather spend more time with their children than their previously prioritized career. Obviously not all make that choice. I'm not convinced that a glass ceiling still exists, but there is rarely mention of the opaque bottom under which many jobs are rarely if ever held by women, nor those well-paid jobs predominantly occupied by women.
| Tony0945 wrote: | | I believe that applies to most men too. Who enjoys driving strangers in heavy traffic? Pouring booze for lushes? Heaving trash into garbage trucks? Replacing toilets? |
I don't agree with "most." Is it possible for everyone to do everything for themselves? No. That's where the attempt to find what you would enjoy comes into play. Typically that ends up being an activity a person identifies early on as enjoyable or at least something that comes easy to them. Unfortunately neither of those is a particularly good indicator of future success or sustained enjoyment. Neither is it a particularly good option to be fixed to single path so early. Unfortunately, no better alternative has presented itself. And the indoctrination into degree seeking has only made that worse.
I think a job based economy where the least desirable jobs pay the most and is susceptible to increased supply of workers would go a long way toward solving the problem. A person who works in sewage or in conditions that pose a significant risk to health or life would be of more value than say a social-media "influencer" or any other variety of uninformed celebrity. Scarcity of jobs is always going to be a multiplier. Unfortunately, the model doesn't maintain for the leaders of those organizations. Simply because they exist doesn't automatically justify any income. But the person who starts the organization is inherently the one who takes on the most risk and responsibility, and if successful, is able to hire other people to perform work.
_________________
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szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3175
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | pjp wrote: | | Not all that rises to the top is scum, just as not all that sinks to the bottom is fecal. |
No, but it's not business skill or vision that gets you to the top. It's the same skills you need to be a Mafia Don or Drug lord.
|
It all depends on what _your_ top is. If you want to be "the best engineer ever", you need a specific skill set. It's slightly different than skill set required to be "recognized as the best engineer ever". The more whoever-evaluates-you sucks at his job, the bigger that difference becomes.
Which is why I've been working as a subcontractor rather than a fully independent company:
I am a very good engineer... But I suck at "being evaluated as a very good engineer". So I let someone else do the selling for me.
And I am free to climb the peak I chose for myself. Well... Partially, at least. Someone pays me for visiting particular checkpoints, which are not always exactly along the way.
The same thing stands for the top management. Imagine someone climbing a company ladder. He needs to play quite a bit of politics. Taking credits whenever possible (even if he wasn't really involved), tripping up his competition, asskissing his superiors, fishing for not-yet-published information, dividing people/starting conflicts... It can take more time and energy than actually doing what he's paid to do.
And imagine a guy, who created the same company. He never had to climb the ladder. He started at the top (which was very low at that time) and built the structure underneath himself.
| Quote: |
My wife who worked on and off as a sales clerk and fast food worker once told me about a show on feminism and the glass ceiling. "If I had a profession like our lawyer and doctor (both female) or a teacher, it would be different, but I'd rather be a housewife than a sales clerk, except when we needed the money." |
I don't see how this is related in any way to whatever we've been talking previously (be it imminent death of our beloved distribution, or one of many small, side-topics), but she seems to have dodged quite a bullet.
There is no such thing as "glass ceiling" for women. And the pay gap has been debunked so many times I can hardly believe feminists still have any audience at all. I have yet to see a single point brought by them that would stand a 5 minutes confrontation with a cold logic.
Also, the truth is the vast majority of jobs suck. Yes, you already mentioned it. The things that we do for fun are called "hobbies".
You, me, and quite a few other people here have managed to monetize our hobbies, which is as awesome as it is dangerous. E.g. high risk of burnout. Or just losing the fun part in a hobby, at which point you don't even have any way to unwind after coming home from your hated job. |
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EasterParade
l33t
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 938
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Gentoo still really kicks my a** on many occasions.
Pretty demanding for a dead operating system. |
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