I consider Gentoo is nearly dead

Juippisi · Developer Joined: 30 Sep 2005 Posts: 728 Location: /home

^ TLDR: There's so much more info on the internet nowadays, and people are more capable of searching it on their own.

I'd also like to remind that there are more discussion networks now, like discord, reddit etc.

Fitzcarraldo · Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:37 pm Post subject:

I think former Gentoo developer and Council member Donnie Berkholz got it about right, back in 2013: Ranking Linux distributions, and the decline of the traditional distros

Discussion on Reddit in 2016: Why did Gentoo peak in popularity in 2005, then fade into obscurity?
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erm67 · l33t Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 653 Location: EU

Ridrok · Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:15 am Post subject:

You are right, sound is converted

If I play a .dff file which is 5.6Mhz, my DAC switches to 192khz/32bits and not DSD format.

Ridrok · Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:30 pm Post subject:

Hi again

I managed to patch the kernel to activate DSD on this DAC, see DSD_U32_LE above on Setting 1.

Ridrok · Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:20 pm Post subject:

Sorry for spam, but my Sunday was a good day

https://i.imgur.com/9DGo39t.jpg

DAC is now finaly in DSD mode, but I probably did not need any path at all.

erm67 · l33t Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 653 Location: EU

If you read a bit around you'll find out that most SACD were just 16bit CDs upsampled and overpriced .... and yes mpd doesn't support SACD ISOs, you'll have to extract the tracks, there is an mpd fork that reads SACD isos but probably is not worth since most SACD suck. Maybe they sound good for you because of some limitations of your DAC.

DSD is a dead technology that made a comeback recently with the advent of cheap sigma-delta modulator DAC that unlike multibit DACs play natively the DSD format and use a hardware interpolator stage to convert incoming PCM data to DSD. Some chipsets like the AKM4452 and AKM4490 (but also other) have a direct path that skips the hardware interpolator if the incoming data is DSD or DoP.

So basically if you send a PCM 96khz/24bit to one of those (very common) one bit DAC it will be converted internally to DSD by a hardware 8x interpolator and played, see the block diagram of one of them for example: AKM4452.

According to some people the hardware interpolator in most one bit DAC chipsets sucks and the music will be a lot better if upsampled to DSD by a good software program (there is a SoX fork that does it) and sent as DoP to one of those one bit DACs that has a direct path for DSD data, that is the main reason why everybody talks about DSD today. The conversion of PCM to DSD is lossy and I think mpd doesn't support it on the fly, of course the conversion is lossy also when done in hardware and this explains why multibit DACs that can play PCM data without interpolation are a lot more expensive. This also explain why PCM converted to DSD might sound better on those chipsets, the software conversion might be less lossy than the hardware one. And why SACD sound a lot better on those DACs, in fact it's PCM that sounds worse than it should.

Another thing to take into consideration is digitalization noise, that for sigma delta modulators is in the high frequencies, the higher the bitrate the higher is the frequency of the digitalization noise, this is why one bit DAC are using always higher rates like DSD512: the digitalization noise is at at frequencies so high to be not hearable at that bit rate. The digitalization noise in the original DSD64 format used in SACD was too close to the hearable frequencies to be cleaned efficently so also SACD can sound better if upsampled to DSD512.

Apparently also your "High-End" DAC is one bit and uses a hardware interpolator internally: https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1792a.pdf, it is not imediately clear from the block diagram if DSD data will be played directly without going through the interpolator, but it is very likely since for you DSD sounds better than PCM; so maybe the trick of DSD upsampling will work also for you.

Basically since your DAC is going to convert everything to DSD internally using a hardware interpolator of unknown quality you can try to do a high quality conversion in software of all PCM data and send only DSD256 to it. look for a SoX fork if you want to try.

I am thinking about a modi multibit DAC for my birthday ;-)

Now that so many web radios are streaming in flac quality: chillout

PS Sorry if I disappointed you, after all the efforts you put in your quest for bit perfection it is not nice to discover that all that perfection is going to be grinded and maimed into an hardware interpolator, but I felt the same when I discovered it :-
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NeddySeagoon · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:32 am Post subject:

What comes out of a PC is not music, however its encoded because it was destroyed before it went in :)
The class-D amplifiers just finish it off.

It doesn't matter to me any more with my ears high frequency cut off at 7.5kHz on the good side and 6.5kHz on the other side.
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erm67 · l33t Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 653 Location: EU

It is not just a matter of frequencies but also clock jitter and other noises introduced by digitalization .... one bit modulator DACs are (theoretically) immune to clock jitter (that allegedly plagued early CD players) and do not need an extremely precise voltage so even cheap devices are usually decent. Paired with a vintage AA amplifier and some good entry level HI-FI speakers they can do wonders, I got some HD tracks of the early The Cure recently and they sent me a shiver down my spine ... like the crystals on the cookies, probably they sound better now than they did on the CD player in the '80, and I had an HIFI CD player from Technics back then ...
Try to find some second hand vintage AA ampli, the only real improvement on modern class AB(AA) probably is the direct-digital button found on modern ampli that bypasses the pre-amp stage that could theoretically introduce some noise.
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Fitzcarraldo · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:09 pm Post subject:

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:36 pm Post subject:

Fitzcarraldo,

As an asthmatic since birth, my ears had an unusually wide frequency response. (it goes hand in hand)
They were good to over 22kHz when I started high school.
It was never established if that was the limit of the test gear or my hearing.
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Fitzcarraldo · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:40 pm Post subject:

http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2009/03/can-you-hear-this-hearing-test/

https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2015/06/02/411473508/how-well-can-you-hear-audio-quality

First one tests your ability to hear sound of different frequencies. Old fogies will be doing well if they can hear up to 15 kHz. A lot of older people (me, for example) can't even hear up to that (If the wind is blowing in the correct direction I think I can hear 14 kHz in one ear above the tinnitus).

Second one tests your ability to discern audio quality (quantisation and sample frequency). I got 33%!
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Ridrok · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:17 pm Post subject:

Hi,

I don't feel DSD are better than Flac 196khz on my DAC, but relatively small monitoring speakers only with my PC, not big detailed ones, but both DFF and FLAC@176 are so much better (coming from good SACD of course) than MP3 @384kbps. Everyone listening my PC is impressed, then no I don't feel disappointed.
I don't know the internal of the DAC, it was not a $100 like the one you show but 4 times more. I did search a lot before investing in it and I don't regret it whatever it converts or not internally.

When I want to play music on a big system I use a PI, this may looks stupid to you but a PI II with a cheap DAC hat and a proper (old classic regulated one from the 90" and fixed to 5.00V on load / not a switching one) power supply has an incredible neutral and natural sound with high frequency flacs and so good plugged to an antic Arman Cardon AVR7000 and Triangle Lyrr 222 speakers.

In conclusion, I wanted my PC DAC (Fostex HP-A4) to work fully on Linux and it does now. Sound is so good compared to most PC systems that I don't feel the need to change it. Maybe you can try to find one, I find it very good in neutrality and sound details despite the maybe questionable internals.

Ridrok

Edit I did the above tests, and seeing I did 33% too to the second test and 14khz is complete silence for me (my son hears them all) on the 1st one, I feel that at 44y old I don't need to search anymore for better sound system since what I have is beyond what I can ear

Fitzcarraldo · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:44 pm Post subject:

erm67 · l33t Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 653 Location: EU

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:57 am Post subject:

For good quality music, break out your LPs.
An LP is a big black CD that plays both sides :)

It has to be analogue end to end.
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Computer users fall into two groups:-
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erm67 · l33t Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 653 Location: EU

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:29 am Post subject:

/me just smiles :)
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Computer users fall into two groups:-
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erm67 · l33t Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 653 Location: EU

The smile on your face doesn't change the truth.

The amount of information that could be stored on vinyl was not enough for music, in particular spinning @33 clock the bitrate was very low but an entire album could fit a single disk, on the other side @45 the bitrate was better but there wasn't enough space to store an entire album. So they decided to compress the music to solve the problem of low resolution (bitrate), the RIAA set the rules for the compression and the mandatory RIAA pre-amp is a decompressor that uses the algorithm set by the RIAA. So it is a compressed format, maybe a hi-fi turntable with a diamond head and stepper motor is better than 128k mp3 played on a cheap soundcard with weak clocks and DAC. However for the same money you can play your 128k mp3 a lot better, maybe interpolating it at 24bits or DSD (if the DAC inside your sound card uses that format internally) and playing it on a decent soundcard ;-)

The interpolation can't be worse than a RIAA decompressor anyway, and even the the most expensive turntable head can not remove it nor recover the informations that were lost in the compression process.
How can you compare a compressed format to an uncompressed one?

My older brother that loved to listen to good music had a large collection of EP btw, same size of a 33 LP but spinning @45 (higher clock = higher bitrate) the resolution is higher and the music was a lot better, but only a couple of songs could fit the disk, not as good as on a good hifi CD player of course. Everybody back than knew that the quality of 33LP was very low apparently now this knowledge was lost and bragging about the 'quality' of vinyl LP is so trendy. I loved vinyl when the disk got a bit wobbly because of sunlight, not to mention the inevitable schratches and the dust and hair that clogged the head, and the expensive equipment to clean the disks and the head ... All that work, trouble and money to listen to shitty compressed music mixed with clicks and pops not to mention the ground loops on lower quality equipments.... maybe you cannot hear them because of your health problems .... damaged ears maybe?

Try some 78 on a grammophone they must be better.
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NeddySeagoon · Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:54 am Post subject:

erm67,

You are changing one set of objectionable audio artefacts for another.
Which is subjectively the most objectionable probably depends on the equipment you grew up with.

Calling RIAA equalisation a compressor is somewhat oversimplification of what it does.
During recording, frequencies below 1kHz are indeed reduced in amplitude. Frequencies above 1KHz are increased in amplitude.
The net result is that the modulation in the groove in the LP is approximately frequency independent.
This process is reversed on playback. Hopefully, electronically, but there are mechanical ways too.
RIAA equalisation addresses both mechanical and media issues.

With some care and attention RIAA equalisation can be flat from 20Hz in 20kHz to better than 1db.
Since the human ear struggles to discern 3db amplitude steps, that's plenty good enough. (Don't forget that db is a log scale).
That's what is all about, good enough, with some margin.

78's, with no RIAA equalisation have a much poorer frequency response. My ears can probably hear it all.
They predate recording and playback with the aid of electronics. Indeed, if you get a used 78, there may not be much left because of groove wear from the tracking weight. The high frequencies are lost first.

I've never bothered to measure the frequency response of a PC sound card.

128k mp3 is not music. The 11:1 lossy compression process destroys it. Interpolating, or trying to make up, fake if you like, the missing data is useless.
Once the data has been thrown away, its gone for good.

As you hint, 'quality' is a subjective experience. I grew up with reel to reel tape and vinyl. When CDs came along, the shot noise and quantisation error on quiet passages sounded horrible.
There were other objectionable artefacts compared to the tape and vinyl I grew up with.

I'm not afraid to wash my collection of LPs. :)
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NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
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Anon-E-moose · Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:05 am Post subject:

Not to mention that cd's are almost as vulnerable as vinyl.
You certainly don't want to leave them in sunlight, high heat, etc, and over time they simply degrade.
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Fitzcarraldo · Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:18 pm Post subject:

Ridrok · Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:29 pm Post subject:

Back a bit to gentoo, is it possible to remove things I don't need and which take too much time to update like Rust, Ruby... I don't know why these two came in months or years ago and what they are used for in gentoo if I don't plan in coding with these languages and would like to get rid of these big packages..
Python, C, C++ are enough for me to code and perl very few (and C# on Windows).

ian.au · Guru Joined: 07 Apr 2011 Posts: 599 Location: Australia