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Muso
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Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1052
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
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 Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ian.au wrote: | I'm assuming that the last rites for the 'nearly dead Gentoo' can be postponed for now?  |
Some have been claiming Gentoo dead for well over a decade, yet here we are.
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| ian.au wrote: | | As for your question, I think on my system the rust dependency sheets home only to firefox, so as long as you don't need firefox you probably could nuke it, ... |
And run firefox-bin, I see a two second difference on start-up, none while running. Of course, you have no idea what's in firefox-bin, but really, does anyone actually look at the firefox code? And understand what it's doing? |
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ian.au
l33t
Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 606
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | ian.au wrote: | | As for your question, I think on my system the rust dependency sheets home only to firefox, so as long as you don't need firefox you probably could nuke it, ... |
And run firefox-bin, I see a two second difference on start-up, none while running. Of course, you have no idea what's in firefox-bin, but really, does anyone actually look at the firefox code? And understand what it's doing? |
Quite right, although firefox-bin doesn't (or didn't last time I tried it) work with my internet banking interface for some reason. |
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| ian.au wrote: | | Quite right, although firefox-bin doesn't (or didn't last time I tried it) work with my internet banking interface for some reason. |
Banks vary here in the USA. Chase is fine with Palemoon. Citbank needs a useragent setting to fake being Firefox. Other institutions need actual Firefox, even an old obsolete one.
I'd prefer if they just gave a notice "Your browser isn't supported. Some features may not work." Best of all, code to standards and forget trying to accommodate browser eccentricities.
EDIT: What really drives me crazy is when they try to pick my OS. One (stock) institution told me that they support Win 8 and up and Ubuntu some version and up. That's it. Can't log in from XP, Win 7, or Gentoo. Needless to say, they don't have my business and keep sending e-mails asking why. |
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erm67
l33t
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 653
Location: EU
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for the very long delay, but I reinstalled my pc for the first time in years probably, and now firefox sync 2FA mail expires in 5 minutes and well it's impossible to get an email in less than 5 minutes on yahoo ....
| NeddySeagoon wrote: | erm67,
You are changing one set of objectionable audio artefacts for another.
Which is subjectively the most objectionable probably depends on the equipment you grew up with.
Calling RIAA equalisation a compressor is somewhat oversimplification of what it does.
During recording, frequencies below 1kHz are indeed reduced in amplitude. Frequencies above 1KHz are increased in amplitude.
The net result is that the modulation in the groove in the LP is approximately frequency independent.
This process is reversed on playback. Hopefully, electronically, but there are mechanical ways too.
RIAA equalisation addresses both mechanical and media issues.
With some care and attention RIAA equalisation can be flat from 20Hz in 20kHz to better than 1db.
Since the human ear struggles to discern 3db amplitude steps, that's plenty good enough. (Don't forget that db is a log scale).
That's what is all about, good enough, with some margin.
78's, with no RIAA equalisation have a much poorer frequency response. My ears can probably hear it all.
They predate recording and playback with the aid of electronics. Indeed, if you get a used 78, there may not be much left because of groove wear from the tracking weight. The high frequencies are lost first.
I've never bothered to measure the frequency response of a PC sound card.
128k mp3 is not music. The 11:1 lossy compression process destroys it. Interpolating, or trying to make up, fake if you like, the missing data is useless.
Once the data has been thrown away, its gone for good.
As you hint, 'quality' is a subjective experience. I grew up with reel to reel tape and vinyl. When CDs came along, the shot noise and quantisation error on quiet passages sounded horrible.
There were other objectionable artefacts compared to the tape and vinyl I grew up with.
I'm not afraid to wash my collection of LPs. |
the RIAA compressor is a compressor it doesn't matter what they told you to accept it .....
Now I hope you will not get upset like the OP when he discovered the he only got one bit in his DAC for 400$ (I bet he is sueing Fostex to get all the bits he deserves), but a lot of times in recent years on hidrogenaudio was explained how all lathes used to "press" vinyl uses a (digital) microprocessor to drive the head that cut your beloved analog grooves, that at least since the late '70ies. In more than one occasion owner of so called independent audiophile mastering houses explained that they also use such digital lathes since the vinyls sound a lot better using the digital lathe than commercially available analog lathes. After all 99% of the masters are now digital. In the '70ies '80ies the analog sound from master tapes was converted using an ADC 16bit 50kh to be processed by the microprocessor that drives the head that cuts the grooves on the vinyl, later they used 16bit 44.1khz like the CD. You own a collection of music that at most can have the quality of a CD since it was "pressed" with an equipment that first converts the signal to 16bit/44.1khz. It's funny that you hear the digitalization defects only on some medium (CD) but not on other mediums that stores a digitized sound. (vinyl)
This makes the effects of RIAA compression even worse, since a lot of information is lost at the lower frequencies.
In your imagination analog has an infinite resolution in time and frequency but it not true, the PVC used in vinyl records has some limits in the size of the grooves used to store the analog signal, even if they didn't use a microprocessor to drive the head the grooves couldn't be much smaller for various reasons, including that the head would wear the edges of the grooves if they aren't thick enough, or just fly over them if too small.
https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/iandm/part12/page2.html
| Quote: |
A 0 dB 1 kHz sinewave corresponds to a peak offset, , of just 8 microns. An LP record is made from a solid assembly of real atoms and molecules. In practice, LPs are made of an amorphous polymer, PolyVinyl Chloride (PVC), to which various other materials have been added. The precise properties of this material are quite complex and were the subject of quite a lot of research and development by the music industry (tobacco-ash, insects, etc, have also been found in LP material!). To avoid the complexity of the details of PVC's properties we can imagine an LP made of crystalline carbon (diamond!). It must be admitted that manufacturing such an LP would be rather difficult!
The walls of the groove of such an LP would be made from layers of carbon atoms. Each carbon atom has an effective diameter of around half a nanometre so the thickness of each layer will be approximately 0·5 nm. The position of the stylus is determined by resting on top of the uppermost layers of atoms. Hence we can see that the stylus position will be roughly quantised by the finite thickness of the atomic layers. When playing a sinewave whose peak size is 8 microns the movement of the stylus would take place in 1 nm steps. Instead of smoothly varying, the stylus offset would therefore always adopt one of the set of available levels,, where m is an integer and is the thickness of the atomic layers. The effect is to divide the microns swing of a 0 dB 1 kHz sinewave into 32,000 steps — just as if the signal had passed through an ADC!
If we assume that the largest possible recorded signal level is +20 dB (i.e. microns) and accept that the signal is quantised in 0·5 nm steps then the diamond LP has a dynamic range, D, of
This compares very well with the Compact Disc system which employs 16-bit digital samples and hence has a dynamic range of about 96 dB. Alas, the performance of a real LP and stylus may be very different from the imaginary example made from diamond! The actual dynamic range of a real vinyl LP is normally much less than 100 dB! |
Also the stereo signal cannot be fully separated, otherwise the head would easily jump out of track if one side of the track was almost flat and the other full of grooves. The microprocessor will mix the 2 original analog channels to some safety levels to keep the head in the track.
That is better than the 32khz joint stereo signal of "wide band" FM radio but not much better.
I recently downloaded a 192khz/24bit bootleg of Sonic Youth that was recorded from FM radio .... there are some geniuses around.
Vinyls wear over time, so they have a quality close to that of CD only the first time you play them, a lot less after repeted plays.
I also had a very nice belt driven turntable with a built in stroboscopic light to finely tune the speed (I wonder how can they sell turntables without it) and also bought a few expensive cartridges. Probably it was me but I hated so much all the trouble with the vinyls, as I said my first CD player was a HIFI one always from technics and my first CD, kiss me kiss me kiss me, and it sounded absolutely great. You probably had one of the early CD players that were plagued by technical problems, I wasn't an early adopter the technology was a bit more mature when I switched.
The technology has improved a lot in the following years.
Maybe some people likes more the music that comes from their technically inferior technology (by all means) and should be respected but only if they respect the fact that some people likes more the music that comes from a one bit DSD512 DAC with a 22.5792 MHz sample rate, not even with 1 atom thick grooves it would be possible to reproduce the sinewave so faithfully on a vinyl even if it was made of pure carbon atoms. The music you listen from an LP was first converted to digital and heavily altered to make it compatible with existing turntables, it's absolutely not a faithful analog representation of the analog signal on the master tapes. The sound of your vintage LPs is very likely so pleasantly smooth because of the wear of the tracks ..... not because of faithfulness.
I forgot the golden rule from the hydrogenaudio forums, never mention the internal of DACs with noobs.
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Last edited by erm67 on Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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logrusx
Advocate
Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2433
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Ridrok wrote: | Back a bit to gentoo, is it possible to remove things I don't need and which take too much time to update like Rust, Ruby... I don't know why these two came in months or years ago and what they are used for in gentoo if I don't plan in coding with these languages and would like to get rid of these big packages..
Python, C, C++ are enough for me to code and perl very few (and C# on Windows). |
| Code: | | equery depends rust |
| Code: | | equery depends ruby |
...and start investigating and adjusting USE flags.
I have both, Ruby I think because of Webkit, Wbekit because of Eclipse, Rust because of Firefox. I tried to start lean and spent much time scraping out what was unneeded, but it turns out there's a lot of it, so I am very careful what happens on updates and try to avoid emerging things I don't need, but don't waste too much time on that, because it'll eventually exceed the time needed for updates. You can leave the computer update through the night, but can't take back the time you invest in avoiding it.
Regards,
Georgi |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54578
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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erm67,
I've not added to my LP collection since the mid '70s so the LPs I have are analogue all the way.
I too have a very nice belt driven turntable with a strobe. Unfortunately the 'strobe' is a 50Hz mains fed neon, so its only as good as the mains frequency.
It tracks very nicely at 1g, which is below the wear threshold for vinyl.
I was aware of the quantisation analysis of vinyl recording even before CDs were invented but this is the first time I've seen the comparison with CDs
Thank you for the quote.
I don't have a problem with the live and let live approach at all. I wasn't trying to convert anyone to vinyl either.
Its pretty pointless today anyway, with all all the digital recording and 'remastering.'
I've enjoyed our discussion too.
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Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
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Ant P.
Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:57 am Post subject: |
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CDs truly are a horrible format, and not just because they encourage horrible practices. They're physically fragile and just as prone to wear as LPs (I've already written off a few of mine from the 90s).
And the other day I learned three quarters of an audio CD's real capacity is wasted by inefficiencies. Some reading if you're bored: https://byuu.net/compact-discs/structure |
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erm67
l33t
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 653
Location: EU
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: |
I've not added to my LP collection since the mid '70s so the LPs I have are analogue all the way. |
That's impossible, i will look for the source at hydrogenaudio for the pre-digitazion of the analogue source in the manufacturing of LP, but if you have read the university paper it shows that the quantization of vinyl is similar to that of CD in theory but a lot lower in practice. It is simply impossible to store on the surface of a real vinyl platter the same amount of information that is stored on a CD, go figure the amount of information that is on a SACD or DVD-Audio .....
The paper also talks about other constraints that must be respected on the vinyl that can be achieved only analizing the music and altering in a way to keep the swings of the head into safe levels.
You can be subjectively convinced that 2+2=5 but cannot pretend this is true for everybody else. The music from your turntable is not analogue and is not faithful to the analogue master used to create the platter. What is stored on a vinyl is the quantized representation of an analogue signal that has a resolution a lot lower than that of a CD (and probably also of many mp3) and absolutely not faithfull to the original. You know that one of the biggest proponents of CD was Von Karajan the music director he knew very well that what come out of the vinyl was not the same music he directed and that was not possible to listen to it properly if stored on vinyl platter. I am sorry for you, I hope you were not paying 40£ each believing the music you were getting from the vinyl was a faithful analog copy of the music, I understand that it is probably hard to accept.
BTW a lot has happened since the bith of CDs:
http://www.dutchaudioclassics.nl/the_evolution_of_dac_the_digital_filter/
The most recent was the switch from multibit to onebit DAC relatively recently.
You told me that you can hear the 'digitalization noise' when there is silence in a song, so I remembered of a CD from the '80 that I had ripped decades ago and where a noise like a ground loop can be heard during silent passages, I no longer have the original medium but I was convinced it was my fault and that I did something wrong while ripping the CD so I recently downloaded a flac of the same CD,verified the fingerprint, and there is the same noise similar to a ground loop. It turn out that a lot of analogue master of the time showed the same problem but the noise was not audible when 'pressed' on a vinyl because of the lack of faithfulnes, so only when they digitalized the master the noise becaome evident. Maybe what you think is a digitalization nois was indeed some spurious noise caused by analogue equipment that did become apparent on the CD but not on a lesser medium like vinyl.
Since you can grasp a bit of math read also the other chapters in the university couse, in particular those about noise shaping, FIR filters and dithering, maybe you'll understand why you cannot hear the digitalization noise (that could maybe be similar to white noise and doen't become more apparent during silent passages).
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True ignorance is not the absence of knowledge, but the refusal to acquire it.
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My fediverse account: @erm67@erm67.dynu.net |
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alexander-n8hgeg5e
n00b
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Since i installed gentoo i felt in control.
Never had that befor.
At that time i had been using kde.
Nowadays i use spectrwm and i3.
One of the first things i did,
was putting a patch in /etc/portage/patches/.
I patched the kde task panel disappear timeout.
It was otherwise not configurable.
Really cool feeling to see the bar
disappearing instantly the moment i moved my mouse a bit of it.
I really love the quick patch functionality.
Can't survive without anymore.
Next thing is , because of gentoo
it was really easy for me to
hack my terminal emulator and have it integrated
into the package management system.
Now my terminal emulator is that
cool, it freezes hell!
Really did not much to the "x11-terms/st"
but it's the litte tweaks that make the
thing rock.
My cursor is hardware accelerated now,maybe...
2 green lines above and under the
actual typing position aproximately 30% of the
screen width'ness width.
In insert mode the typing position
is surrounded by top,left,and bottom lines.
red-like colored. it overlays the green
at that position.
Normal mode the actual positon is a orange block.
Never had to look arround seaching my
cursor since i patched the prog that way.
Many,really many stuff that i use daily
is in my code directory and i made the
subdirs emerge compatible.
I add a subdir portage/catname/appname/appname-9999.ebuild,
put some lines with "inherit git-r3"
and EGIT_REPO_URI="${CODEDIR}"
in and link the appname dir
to my personal portage repo.
Thats almost it, what need to be in the ebuild file
and i can install it conventiently and portage
keeps track of all my files.
I automated it a bit, but prog is currently broken.
I call the prog gentooify.
I does the linking, makes the subdir
and asks for a template style
for the ebuild.
Instead of shell aliases that i would have
to apply to all shells,(i use fish,bash,ipython)
I have a "shortcuts" package that
has 317 little tools(python/fish/bash,little bit c) that
adjust the system as i like it.
This is one of my most important packages.
Another important one , i call it
"mydefaults", has all environment variable setup,
portage default config, and other default config
for stuff in /etc.
That way i can apply the settings
to all computers, and things like config-protect,
installation, are managed by portage.
It now also works mostly with gentoo-prefix.
Want to make a quick code adjustment
improve a line of code,
"Ctrl-t" opens the the term.
"g.c -m..." commit is the commit shortcut.
"manif" shortcut to gen new manifest
"elpau!! cat/app" emerges it quickly with --nodeps.
In case i want it somewhere on another
computer, a little bit git push pull
emerge and and all is
adjusted on the other computer, as i like it.
Any distro out there that can provide that ?
Sounds like some dream ? ,luckily it's real.
It's gentoo. |
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Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3707
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Muso wrote: | | Some have been claiming Gentoo dead for well over a decade, yet here we are. |
It's like- the "Year of the Linux Desktop"
- end of the world
- a kickstarter project actually delivering the product
- global peace
- someone inventing perpetual motion machine
... you get the point.
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| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
-systemd -logind -elogind seatd |
| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
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mimosinnet
l33t
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 716
Location: Barcelona, Spain
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| Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Lovely poem, alexander-n8hgeg5e  . It very much reflects my experience with Gentoo. Also, I conclude that Gentoo is more alive than ever when I see recent posts like this one:
Gentoo is dead, long live Gentoo!
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jserink
Veteran
Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 1013
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| Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| saboya wrote: | I think there's a legitimate argument to be made to say Gentoo might be dying, although Gentoo was never a "big hit" distro to begin with, so I don't see the huge decline, just a steady "niche distro" status.
However, I don't think none of those points are actually valid to support that claim. Some are personal preference, and some are just outright wrong (lutris is in the main tree).
Also, it is worth mentioning that Gentoo isn't the most "user-friendly" distro out there, and the concepts behind its functionality encourage you to have some ownership to your own system, and that includes managing overlays, applying custom patches and creating ebuilds of your own. |
Yes, its a niche distro....
for those who want to LEARN how unix/linux works.
If you want pre-compiled binaries use something else, I might even suggest a company from Redmond Washington.
But, if you are using linux WHY would you use pre-compiled binaries? I don't understand that.
Yes there is lots to read for Gentoo. Yes there is lots to learn.
Yes it breaks sometimes but if you want to learn, that is how it is done.
I'm fine with Gentoo, no complaints and the forums are absolutely fantastic, there are many brilliant people that are ready to assist.
Don't mean to be rude but if you want to switch distros, don't let the door hit your backside on the way out. Go ahead and switch.
Its a free world.
Cheers,
john |
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belze
n00b
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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just my 2 cents...
I use gentoo not because i NEED to learn, but because I want customisation at maximum level. This comes with a "cost", you have to manage yourself a lot configuration and editing in configuration files.
I love debian just beacuse of the opposite, when i do need stability over time, sane defaults and quick precompiled packages i go that way.
In my daily laptop lives gentoo because i know if i want vlc with or without a feature, i know what my kernel need to boot my machine and so on.
Long live gentoo, and thank to any devs to make it possible. |
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389292
Guru
Joined: 26 Mar 2019
Posts: 504
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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OP, did you find anything which suites you better? If I could have configuratability of Gentoo but stability of Arch, and no Systemd that would be perfect for me, unfortunately I couldn't find anything like that anywhere. Gentoo doesn't have a ton of maintainers, but at least it has some, unlike even less popular distros.
Gentoo's bleeding edge breaks too often. I even thought maybe it's time to make some kind of franking-stain build, with Gentoo as a bare minimal base, but something like Guix on top of it for painless package management... but then again not like guix has a ton of stuff despite its cool features, and it's free only, and it requires yet another language to learn... |
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libero
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 87
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:12 am Post subject: |
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I'm back on Gentoo after a good 5+ years. I have 9+ years experience before that. I lost count!
Kind of too busy, kind of lost the use case. But now I have a new use case for Gentoo. Starting out in an LXC container.
But glad to be back! |
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axl
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1146
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| etnull wrote: | | and no Systemd |
this is only a problem for the type of people who don't know either.
Give me ANY systemd system and I'll make it my bitch just with busybox. Give me any openrc system and i'll do the same. I can write my own boot sequence from kernel with just a shell.
THAT is the problem. Choice. And having to learn stuff. It's not the system. it's the operator.
This idea that the init system hinders the operator job... stop that please. |
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Hu
Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 22663
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| You have hit on a key problem, even as you dismiss it. Systemd has come up with a "new and improved" (and definitely very different) way of doing many things. Any time systemd encroaches on a new area, a would-be operator must learn the systemd-approved way of doing things in that area, because the old knowledge from pre-systemd no longer applies. In cases where the pre-systemd implementation was terrible, that might be justifiable. In many cases, systemd has encroached on areas that worked adequately, if not well, and changed the rules there too. Even in cases where systemd's internal way is clearly better, it's not necessarily better to change how the operator interacts with the system, but that was changed too. For example, I don't mind that, from the perspective of the system daemons, systemd manages those daemons very differently from how sysvinit managed them. I do find it a bit annoying that I have to use a completely different set of commands for the basic operations of managing those daemons. |
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alexander-n8hgeg5e
n00b
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:23 pm Post subject: gentooifying my phone |
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by the way, i installed gentoo prefix on my phone.
I broke it somewhat shortly after tarball extraction.
But i go the way of never reinstall, only repair.
I only needed tar --skip-old-files -xf (not overwrite)
I think it's technically a repair.
Now it has already compiled gcc, binutils, ... most of @system.
I let it use one core so no out of memory. 2Gb ram 128Gb sdcard
Took aprox 12h+ for gcc
,Maybe i can fetch android , modify it to be more gentoo, compile it
on the phone and install it while running.
The thing would have compiled itself, like a real computer. |
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axl
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1146
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Hu wrote: | | You have hit on a key problem, even as you dismiss it. Systemd has come up with a "new and improved" (and definitely very different) way of doing many things. Any time systemd encroaches on a new area, a would-be operator must learn the systemd-approved way of doing things in that area, because the old knowledge from pre-systemd no longer applies. In cases where the pre-systemd implementation was terrible, that might be justifiable. In many cases, systemd has encroached on areas that worked adequately, if not well, and changed the rules there too. Even in cases where systemd's internal way is clearly better, it's not necessarily better to change how the operator interacts with the system, but that was changed too. For example, I don't mind that, from the perspective of the system daemons, systemd manages those daemons very differently from how sysvinit managed them. I do find it a bit annoying that I have to use a completely different set of commands for the basic operations of managing those daemons. |
I know. this learning thing has to stop. at some point.
but as old people die and new people are born, we find new things to learn.
you say... wow. let me.
I said this story before. I liked enlightenment and I did my best to test e17 as it was coming out. i think the first time I did it was prior to my gentoo experience. I was using slackware at the time. as e17 was coming out, it was considered as WM for a linux motorola phone. they lost the bid. and i remember the talk. only if we had something close to the kernel to deal with usb & bluetooth. and something to read back the logs.
systemd, whoever came up with it, didn't come from dry stone. it wasn't a dark plan to conquer your liberty or whatever. systemd has filled a void that was there for a very long time.
and things change. so. when you say: systemd has come up with... it's complete nonsense. they didn't come up with anything.
Second. that word. "encroaches". I lived in communist Romania under Ceausescu. You have no idea what that word means. Not like you use it. You use it freely.
I'll maintain my idea that as long as you can point init=/myinit ... u're talking nonsense. when was this idea born? that your system should come customized to your needs from the manufacturer. we didn't have that in the 90's.
third. openrc/sysvinit doesn't manage daemons. systemd does. a simple example of the difference between the two would be that systemd knows when a daemon dies. while openrc just starts it. systemd knows and has the logs for it. the time. the coredump. while openrc is sucking his thumb. maybe the new and improved way of doing things is actually new and improved.
And finally, I come from a generation of "do it yourself". And I'm ashamed and surprised at some of the quitters that think it's ok to just give up and whine. And I use these 2 particular expressions because that's what was repeated to me over and over again in the 90's. is the baby gonna whine and give up? where is your sense of adventure and curiosity? if systemd is strong enough to twist your comfort in linux, maybe you didn't have that much to begin with.
Not personally directed at you Hu, but you guys say the same things. use the same words. I personally HAAAAAAAAATEEEEEEEEEEE "encroaches". if you encroached by systemd ... maybe you need to ... you know... evolution. maybe its time for you to move back to windows or something. CLEARLY not aimed at you Hu, but encroaches... really?
It's opensource. if you feel encroached by it it's perhaps because incompetence is suffocating. That's another thing they used to tell me. Look at the source. Do you still fear it? ) |
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389292
Guru
Joined: 26 Mar 2019
Posts: 504
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| My reasons are my reasons, if some one likes systemd I'm fine with that, I was using it for 5 years actually. But when I got rid of it I saw absolutely no difference, with the exception of less complexity and bloat being always present on my system. People are saying it is good for servers or for some other purposes (like it unifies stuff), but I just don't see it that way, to me a system which works well with ~5 parts in it, does not require an additional 55 parts of complexity to achieve some vague improvements, again it's my personal preferences, I just prefer my system to be without the "D" in it, if it triggers you - sorry. |
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axl
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1146
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| etnull wrote: | | some vague improvements, again it's my personal preferences |
do you know? it's your choice. personal preference vs ... it's not vague improvements. it's another generation. do you know?
can we return in 10 years? by that time you will be dead or you would have learned it by ... force?! by whatever.
if systemd was something you can whine at to disappear it would have been gone already.
just meditate a sec. put yourself 10 years into the future. you still dont know how to start your system from scratch. will you still whine 10 years into the future. again, not aimed at you personally. but 10 years into the future I suspect we aren't going back to openrc.
those improvements are not vague. your knowledge of systemd is vague.
and the bad thing about it is that is a point of pride. Hey i don't know systemd. look at me how much of a rebel I am. rebel without a cause. wouldn't be the first. |
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axl
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1146
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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what bums me out is linux guys being old. and holding linux back.
in some sense, this was a work of genius. way ahead of it's time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7dTjpvakmA
but i wept. when ibm finally finally extended the arm... and the rest was history. |
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Gatsby
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 121
Location: 127.0.0.1
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:25 am Post subject: |
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https://the-world-after-systemd.ungleich.ch/
| Quote: | Why after systemd?
We think that even though many distros have adopted systemd, the general design or motivation of the project is not good and will lead to more problems than it solves.
We anticipate that systemd is currently in fashion, however many of us have seen software rising and falling, especially if it was ill designed (sendmail anyone?).
In that sense we are planning for the time when distros and users are beginning to migrate away from systemd. |
_________________
"Its your Gentoo, your way. When it breaks, you can keep all the pieces."
-- NeddySeagoon@forums.gentoo.org |
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soparla
n00b
Joined: 21 Aug 2018
Posts: 72
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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Gentoo is as dead as the last tailored suit I got made. It fits me perfect and since I didn't gain any weight in the last 4 years I am still wearing it.
If you're looking for that Armani Exchange suit that's a one size fits all... look else where.
IMHO If you want to judge a distro activity do it by the number of reported bugs. Those are users that care to file a bug to fix a problem they faced, not from a user forum or some download stats (they get cached anyhow).
PS: I've been using Gentoo since before college in early days, it introduced me to computer science which then became my profession. Working for US Banks in the last half a decade, I can tell you Linux is going strong, Docker and virtualization seems to be the future. But enterprise likes those one size fits all. They care less about performance of a custom compiled kernel since they have a farm of servers.
Here's an idea Gentoo team, provide Enterprise support |
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