a reliable test for obscene filth

axl · Veteran Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1146 Location: Romania

There was a talk about something... which lead invariably to systemd. And in that particular discussion someone used the term "bloatware". Now... this term has been thrown around a lot. I didn't think it belonged in a gentoo forums setting close to 2020, but that's just me. I think, the fact that you have to ability to USE anything out... is pretty bloatware free. But you know... systemd. Anyway.

It reminded me of harsher times when gentoo itself was a bloatware. Melancholy. Fights over the years when I fought over using gentoo. And lost. Because it was too expensive in terms of resources.

Now, I mentioned in that thread my old desktop. it's a gigabyte X58 ud3r, 32 GB of ram, DDR3 I think 1866 speed wise, a modest old nvidia. I think from the 9xx generation. It only has pci-express version 2. so the nvidia, works at 66% capacity. as well as the nvme drive. an intel 750 drive. the old system, mobo and cpu was 2010 technology. I just kept adding memory, nvme and a decent gpu.

ANY intel build with an X in it, it's like it was made for smp, large stuff, live milions of years. be immortal. I love this machine. It's old. it's small. but it can hold his own in a fight. well, her own. I call it by a girl name. Let's call her magdalina.

Now, there were 2 haswell sisters in between (x99 builds), but now it's close to 2020 and 2 new sisters entered the ring.

I manage for my uncle's small family business server and recently he chose to upgrade his old hateful hp proliant server with something I recommended. So he ended up with something very similar to my build.

He's got the 9920x cpu, only 64GB of a bit slower ram, and only the 480GB optane instead of the 1TB one.

sdauth · l33t Joined: 19 Sep 2018 Posts: 672 Location: Ásgarðr

That's why Gentoo is great, you can supercharge it with lot of things while being able to easily remove it if needed. It's all about choice. That's why I switched to Gentoo after years of binaries distro.
I couldn't care less about choices people make with their software configuration, everyone have a good reason for it. All I want is being able to review the different options by myself. And Gentoo allows me to do it.

Jaglover · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:15 pm Post subject:

sdauth,

this is not what axl thinks. He believes everybody should be using systemd and all parasite services it comes with because he likes it. For instance, I have a headless server. All nodes are static, if udev was running in this box it never could do its job - there are never any new unknown hardware plugged in. Fellow axl thinks udev should be running nevertheless in such a machine. Yeah, how about green thinking?

All these wasted CPU cycles would waste energy and add to carbon pollution, which according to the "climate scientists" will kill mankind soon via global warming. Or via new ice age. Whichever comes first.
_________________
My Gentoo installation notes.
Please learn how to denote units correctly!

xanderal · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:34 pm Post subject:

Jaglover · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:01 pm Post subject:

xanderal,

I don't remember, long time, probably I just booted with some liveCD and copied all nodes I wanted over to a directory, you might say I "stole" them instead of creating by hand. Then I used these nodes for my static setup.
_________________
My Gentoo installation notes.
Please learn how to denote units correctly!

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:03 pm Post subject:

Jaglover,

The nodes are licenced to you. :)
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

Jaglover · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:58 pm Post subject:

OK, they are mine. I have to say they hold up good, not wearing thin or something. On the contrary what our OP thinks I haven't maintained them in any way, no need for a grease gun.
_________________
My Gentoo installation notes.
Please learn how to denote units correctly!

Anon-E-moose · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:08 pm Post subject:

It's relatively easy to go from (e)udev (dynamic /dev) to static dev.

While running (e)udev tar up the /dev directory.
Remove udev from runlevel (sysinit on my system).
Boot up with sysrescuecd, admincd, etc, mount directory with root/dev, untar dev tarball.
Enjoy

For further use, read up on mknod (for creating device nodes)

I've done my fair share of creating nodes, etc over time (pre-udev days)

(e)udev is just a step towards what windows does for people (let the user use the computer without having to understand it)

I have a base /dev laid down on my system, even though tmpfs /dev is laid down over it. I've had it going back to at least linux 2.* days.
_________________
UM780, 6.12 zen kernel, gcc 13, openrc, wayland

Tony0945 · Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:36 am Post subject:

Well eudev is handy for naming multiple ethernet NIC's by MAC address and ... (I can't think of anything else).

It is also a requirement for hplip if one has an HP printer.
I have one desktop entirely supported by mdev. Google mdev-like-a-boss and you should find several threads.

Mdev operates cleanly using kernel hotplug unlike udev and derivatives.

axl · Veteran Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1146 Location: Romania

I am exploring making the smallest possible linux. And that, doesn't include systemd. Just busybox and the required daemon. But that, runs in a very controlled environment. One that never changes. It's always the same cpu/memory/storage. and it's all virtio. all running in qemu.

In that setting, devices never change for nfs, samba, apache, bind, dhcp, postfix, cyrus and so on. the places where these services run are just static.

However, the VM which leads to gpu and by extension the monitors, to usb hub and bluetooth and by extension to a suite of possible devices, which runs gnome and can be extended on the family TV in the living room, well, that one does have systemd.

I've been saying this a million times. Both have a use in the world. People should learn both. I don't mind you guys talking about that issue here, but you should also comment on the subject at hand.

I'm still looking for a test to run.

Also, since we do cross-topic discussion, I'd like to say that I rediscovered --jobs for emerge, which I completely forgot existed, and mostly never used, but now makes all the sense in the world to use. And it's completely lovely.

Tony0945 · Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:07 am Post subject:

So who needs Gnome? Gnome 3 sucks as bad as Win 8

axl · Veteran Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1146 Location: Romania

so does kde. so does enlightenment. so does sway. so does xfce. so does every other wm.

I'll put it this way. The one that sux the least for me is gnome. with the resources I play with, it's no trouble. look at the first post.

second. I use 4 applications. I have been using them since their inception. I don't feel the need to change them.

evolution for mail. tab4. chrome for browsing. tab3. smplayer (curiously the only qt app I use, and an extension of mplayer). tab2. and gnome-terminal. tab1.

I can't use other apps. I have tried every other email client, except pine, well, alpine, which I tolerate for console use. links instead of chrome. and mplayer, which works in console. and console...

On top of this, comes steam & wine which is beloved by the kids around the house, and for random normal people chrome. for me, for my uses, this is the perfect wm. gnome plays nice with what I need.

Muso · Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:26 am Post subject:

axl · Veteran Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1146 Location: Romania

Muso · Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:45 am Post subject:

axl · Veteran Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1146 Location: Romania

like I said, I'm going for smaller and smaller and smaller...

currently at:

-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 3723824 Oct 22 10:55 /var/lib/libvirt/images/vmlinuz-5.3.7-gentoo-x86_64

I have a nice setup to test things. that's the kernel. the root fs is basically just busybox over nfs.

You know, for someone who's a systemd fanboy, I spent incredible amounts of time recently just doing the basic. the basic is what is below openrc/sysvinit. below everything. just go from kernel to some initrd which is THE operating system.

make new virtual root directory. just like gentoo handbook. instead of including portage and everything, you go by lddtree. that's your initrd. you cpio/xz it, include it in the kernel and there you go... one file system.

a little bit of dhcp, bind, tftp, and you dont even need the one file. you can just have... "system". no file, no nothing. just ... this is... system.

axl · Veteran Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1146 Location: Romania

this thread, certainly didn't reach the intended target. not that I actually knew what the target was.

but, I am happy to say, one of the best things that came out of it is the appreciation I have for busybox. And on a personal level for a summer in the late 90's when I learned about the basics of sysvinit. From a slackware 7 or 8, with a nokia 6610 with gprs. I think that must have been my last analogue vacation. But damn good memories.

Doing things with busybox is just like that summer. it's predictable. it's simple.

and it's way ... way cooler than openrc or systemd.

I love my VM's. Everytime I remove one extra layer of fat I just feel good. And I have to say... who needs an init system? In a qemu virtio setting... you dont need an init system.

You might want one for your desktop. But for special purpose VM... busybox is da bomb. so cool.

It's like: what is this server? vtun. mkey. baselayout, busybox, vtun. that's your initrd image. that's your rootfs. samba: baselayout, busybox, samba. bind: baselayout, busybox, bind. and so on.

It's hard to determine which I love more. The outer shell, the computer, the server, or the software running within it.

I tend to think the inner one. I love qemu. The exact way it is. When you boot a kernel on real hardware... You can expect anything. On a qemu machine... You know EXACTLY what to expect and why. And if you don't know that... read some docs first. Anyway... I love the predictability of VM's. tiny little matroska dolls inside a bigger doll.

anyway... IF ever I get another vacation like that one, ever, busybox is what i'll take with me to play around.

This openrc/systemd debate is so silly. who cares. busybox reigns supreme. I have over 10 machines with just busybox and just one systemd system with a desktop wm. I could have one openrc desktop vs all the other busybox ... boxes. vm's. it's silly. I love headless servers. I love qemu/virtio. I love busybox & iptables & old school hacks.

funny thing is, I keep this new computer in another room. I don't sit in front of it. I just ssh. Weird for me. I still favor sitting in front of the oldest system I have. I favor age. Because I am getting old. I'll be 42 in a month.

And what I have learned is that there's more excitement in ~640Kb of busybox than... well, you decide. but busybox is one special piece of software.

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:36 am Post subject:

Anon-E-moose,

Its not quite that simple. You have to make sure that /dev does not get mounted over the top of your static /dev or you get the same dynamic /dev you always had but with symlinks and permissions trashed.

axl · Veteran Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1146 Location: Romania

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:13 am Post subject:

axl,

You can't use a dynamic /dev unless you have something to manage permissions and symlinks too.
Yes, the raw /dev nodes will be there but you won't like it.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

axl · Veteran Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1146 Location: Romania

yeah... sure. userland solutions for kernel issues. why not?!

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:08 pm Post subject:

axl,

Once upon a time there was a choice between devfs (kernel space) or udev (userspace) to do it all.
Then udev got gutted so it only did permissions and symlinks.
udev also did firmware loading too.

Maybe udev will vanish sometime soon. If functionality keeps getting removed, it won't do anything any more :)
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

szatox · Advocate Joined: 27 Aug 2013 Posts: 3493

Ant P. · Watchman Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Posts: 6920

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:13 pm Post subject:

szatox,

I regressed to a static /dev in 2013 or there abouts so I don't follow the current status very closely.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.