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nenoro
n00b
Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 55
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 Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:22 am Post subject: Dear gentoo team |
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Hello
According to people and me who have noticed gentoo is outdated for a lot packages but not only packages the handbook is outdated and should be refreshed Daniel Robbins has already updated his installation book and his wiki for funtoo... He is alone to dev funtoo while gentoo is a big team (Don't use the coronavirus as an excuse)
Stable version is still 4.19.x and the other are still in testing with a lot of bugs Mike Pagano didn't notice that.
Another fact > https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Hardened_musl
| Quote: | | sed -i "/^sync-uri/d" /etc/portage/repos.conf/gentoo.conf |
Do you believe this will work if someone wants to get rid off glibc ?
Another fact jorgicio mentionned on reddit > https://www.reddit.com/r/Gentoo/comments/fe4jzq/lacking_of_packages_and_some_are_outdated/
Last time i had to go on gentoo discord and ask someone to update discord-bin because there was a new version.
Little by little the magic of gentoo is getting weak for me i only spend 2 years with the first year openssl 1.0.2 was broken and causes compile failure (i had to wait until gentoo realize it was time to move to 1.1.x).
Gentoo Team lack of reactivity and i'm not good to make an ebuild for each package i want to update or install.
thanks to jorgicio and menelkir to add lightdm-gtk-greeter-settings and gradio i'm still waiting for grub-customizer, jdownloader2 and chatty...
Sorry if i get salty with gentoo but it's a fact gentoo is dying because of team gentoo... And i [insert love] love gentoo last time i went back to arch i was like alone i had to reinstall gentoo...
edit 1: ftp://192.168.3.1/pub/gentoo doesn't work i copied it from the musl gentoo wiki... |
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r7l
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Feb 2019
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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If you think Arch has the better packages, it might be the better option for you. Otherwise it would help more of you step up and help. Set up an overlay and write useful ebuilds yourself. That's the least you can do.
When it comes to Arch, their main package repository isn't that large. Ya they still have a huge list of packages if you include AUR. Good luck using pacman for it. So you're off with 3rd party package managers that will die off from time to time (remember yaourt?)
But i have to admit that i've also witnessed a very slow adoption process for new packages in Gentoo, even with new maintainers willing to step in and help. The package i've witnessed this the most would be www-apps/gitea. There was a constant back and forth about new releases and the new maintainer still seems to be forced to use their own overlay instead of the main portage tree even if he wants to. The version in portage tree is constantly outdated while the maintainer has it in his overlay.
And ya, the overlay list should be cleaned. Some overlays haven't seen updates for months (ex: chaoslab). |
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nenoro
n00b
Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Well the only image viewer i love to use is mirage but they have masked it because pygtk is buggy, on mirage website the creator didn't say nothing about it.
1. What about qt5 who stick with 5.13 version while 5.14 is available, same for python 3.8 who is still in testing.
2. Also i notice too much packages are dependent to qt5/gtk when you don't want one of them.
3. A stupidity i find when i use skypeforlinux before i login i have a window who shows up to create a password to login before login i let it blank but it pisses me because skype can't be compiled without gnome-keyring.
4. Why Libressl isn't officially supported in the gentoo overlay it should be.
5. Another problem is opera needs its opera-ffmpeg-codecs but the ebuild from gentoo force to compile chromium first i have to go on gentoo zugaina, find the ebuild from redcore and copy the link to download the latest file to copy one file to the opera folder..
For me the term "rolling release" is a lie, they should tell the truth just look at voidlinux for example Juan said "void is a rolling release" 6 months maybe 1 year later the distro turns into a 6 months release for a new iso because he couldn't maintain like arch does.
6. i use wine-tkg because it has more patches than a simple wine-staging, on arch when i do an update or upgrade, pacman deals with it but emerge hell no it doesn't recognize wine-tkg so it tries to install wine-vanilla over "this zombie".
| Quote: | | if you think Arch has the better packages |
It has and that is the problem.
So maybe you're right i should make an overlay and gentoo won't waist its time to update everything.. |
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r7l
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Feb 2019
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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I am using Gentoo for more then 10 years now. I have left it at some point and returned. I was using Ubuntu (and others based of it) and also Arch. I am still using Arch if i need a quick testing VM but exactly yesterday i've managed to break it by just doing updates. You know how i did it? Because i was forced to use a 3rd party package manager called yay as i thought it would update everything at once. It did! But now i am unable to set up networking for some odd reason. Whatever it is with Arch, the list you have here might contain valid points but some are still kinda odd. You make it sound as if all the things you have listed here would work perfectly in any other distro. Maybe it is with this list but trust me, in a month from now you'll have a new list of issues on that distro as well.
In all the years i've used Gentoo, it never was bleeding edge. It always was a couple versions behind. Maybe ~arch was bit more up to date then it is now but it never was on pair with Arch.
Maybe the Gentoo team should make it a little easier for new and motivated maintainers to join in and contribute. But i wouldn't consider Gentoo dead in any way. |
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freke
l33t
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 980
Location: Somewhere in Denmark
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dear gentoo team |
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Seems like you missed Step 1 (from the wiki-page) | Quote: | | 1) Set up your favorite GENTOO_MIRRORS and sync-uri and sync the main ebuild repository. Obviously replace 192.168.3.1 with your servers of choice: |
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8938
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm sorry but your post really just sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. |
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Hu
Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 21724
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Dear gentoo team |
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| nenoro wrote: | | According to people and me |
According to me and people whose names I will not share, you have made some fundamental mistakes in your criticism. | nenoro wrote: | | who have noticed gentoo is outdated for a lot packages but not only packages the handbook |
Run-on sentence. This makes it harder to follow your point, and makes readers less likely to take you seriously. To your apparent point, Gentoo is big. As of my last sync, I see ~19000 packages. Keeping that current requires quite a bit of maintainer time. In some cases, it also requires subject matter expertise, so you cannot look simply at the number of hours of maintainer time available, but also at which maintainers are available. | nenoro wrote: | | is outdated and should be refreshed |
Refreshed how? Are you just asking for packages to follow upstream more closely? | nenoro wrote: | | Daniel Robbins has already updated his installation book and his wiki for funtoo... He is alone to dev funtoo while gentoo is a big team |
Funtoo is based on Gentoo's tree to some degree, so work done in Gentoo benefits Funtoo, but work done in Funtoo does not automatically benefit Gentoo. Thus, you should credit some portion of the Gentoo maintainer time to Funtoo's maintainer time budget as well as to Gentoo's own. Also, according to Funtoo's own FAQ, it contains changes not just from drobbins, but also from the Funtoo user community. (I will grant that, also according to their own FAQ, Funtoo uses a now somewhat outdated snapshot of Gentoo. It's not clear from the FAQ whether their updates past that are entirely homemade or if they are cherry-picking pieces of newer Gentoo trees.) | nenoro wrote: | | (Don't use the coronavirus as an excuse) |
Why would you even put this here? Gentoo is maintained online, so offline diseases matter only when they impact Gentoo maintainers' ability to get online and work. | nenoro wrote: | | Stable version is still 4.19.x |
Stable version of what? Based on the structure of the number, I would guess you are looking at the kernel. If so, you should have also looked at the maintainer's policy about kernel versioning. Gentoo only marks kernels as stable if they are LTS kernels upstream. If you want to track the latest stable kernel released by Greg KH, you need to use a testing version of sys-kernel/gentoo-sources. | nenoro wrote: | | and the other are still in testing with a lot of bugs Mike Pagano didn't notice that. |
If Mike is the only person working this, and he does this as a volunteer project, I'm not surprised that a large number of bug reports could put him behind. What query did you use to reach the conclusion there are "a lot of bugs Mike Pagano didn't notice that."? Are these bugs serious? Are they encountered by numerous users? Are they things you would expect that Mike even can fix? Remember that Gentoo maintainers are not necessarily expert developers for the project they maintain. For a project the size of the Linux kernel, I would be surprised if any one volunteer had the time, depth of expertise, and hardware resources to address every possible bug report for the project.It's a Wiki, so no, I wouldn't believe it without looking more closely at the edit history and surrounding circumstances. I don't even trust a Wiki to tell me the color of the sky at sunset. 
For a tree the size of Gentoo, maintained primarily (if not entirely) by volunteers, I am not even slightly surprised that some packages are not maintained as well as they could be in an ideal world. The question should not be about whether some packages are out of date, but about whether there are packages that (1) are popular and (2) are missing important updates. If the Gentoo project is late pushing out security fixes that users need, that would concern me. If the project is late pushing out cosmetic updates on niche packages, that would not concern me. | nenoro wrote: | | Little by little the magic of gentoo is getting weak for me i only spend 2 years with the first year openssl 1.0.2 was broken and causes compile failure (i had to wait until gentoo realize it was time to move to 1.1.x). |
This does not make any sense. Please explain. |
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Dear gentoo team |
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me too, i copied that from gentoo wiki
| Quote: | | Obviously replace 192.168.3.1 with your servers of choice: |
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Ant P.
Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Dear gentoo team |
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| nenoro wrote: | Hello
According to people and me who have noticed gentoo is outdated for a lot packages but not only packages the handbook is outdated and should be refreshed Daniel Robbins has already updated his installation book and his wiki for funtoo... He is alone to dev funtoo while gentoo is a big team (Don't use the coronavirus as an excuse) |
It's quite easy to show the appearance of superhuman progress when you're taking all the credit for a massive upstream team's work, yes.
How good is Funtoo when it's not piggybacking off the Gentoo repos? |
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Juippisi
Developer
Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 727
Location: /home
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| r7l wrote: | | But i have to admit that i've also witnessed a very slow adoption process for new packages in Gentoo, even with new maintainers willing to step in and help. |
"New packages" have the lowest priority right now, because we are more focused in keeping current ::gentoo tree in a good state. Just look at the complaints we get on the forums if it's not...
Going through new packages requires a lot more work from our side than checking updates to existing ones. Also when it comes to new contributors there's usually a lot of teaching regarding our common standards, like ebuild writing style, git commit syntax, copyrights explained etc. Then a lot of times whenever a new contributor gets something in the tree they disappear. No bumps, no bug fixes and then there's a lot more work for us to deal with it. It's also very frustrating.
I'd personally like new packages and new contributors first to check and familiarize themselves with our Guru overlay,
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:GURU
where we get to see their ebuild writing quality and how active they are. If everything looks just fine with their workflow and motivation, we would start accepting contributions.
However this is just my opinion, not the whole proxy-maint teams.
| Quote: | | The package i've witnessed this the most would be www-apps/gitea. There was a constant back and forth about new releases and the new maintainer still seems to be forced to use their own overlay instead of the main portage tree even if he wants to. The version in portage tree is constantly outdated while the maintainer has it in his overlay. |
You have one example of the ~1000 packages proxy-maint maintains? I remember this case, it was a very bad timing. Gentoo had just introduced acct- packages and gitea had a special case regarding that,
https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/blob/master/acct-user/git/git-0.ebuild
Also Gentoo was going through licensing issues with Go packages and how to best solve those. So there was a lot of problem solving included during that time, but AFTER everything was done, gitea bumps have been processed really fast. The problem is that the original author got fed up with the situation (understandably) and he only seems to be doing major bumps now, because the listed proxy-maintainer seems to have gone AWOL. However, original maintainers bumps are processed fast now whenever he contributes. And I hope to have him back on board eventually.
| Quote: | | And ya, the overlay list should be cleaned. Some overlays haven't seen updates for months (ex: chaoslab). |
The overlays are removed only if they become broken, there's no automated checks whether commits are made in X amount of time. And I don't feel like there's a need to - stuff can still work, and not every program update frequently.
If you find concerning troubles about specific overlays (like lots of security issues) then of course, you can create a bug in our Bugzilla asking for its checking / removal. |
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ff11
l33t
Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 664
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| nenoro wrote: | Well the only image viewer i love to use is mirage but they have masked it because pygtk is buggy, on mirage website the creator didn't say nothing about it.
... |
On my overlay (https://github.com/ferion11/danrepo), i'm keeping media-gfx/mirage with python3.6. There is also the media-gfx/fragment that is faster when opening very big images.
And to painting, i have media-gfx/mtpaint (it can run on a 200MHz CPU and 16MB of free RAM). I use it to take screenshot ($ mtpaint -s) too 
_________________
| Proverbs 26:12 |
| There is more hope for a fool than for a wise man that are wise in his own eyes. |
* AlphaGo - The Movie - Full Documentary "I want to apologize for being so powerless" - Lee |
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nenoro
n00b
Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| ff11 wrote: | | nenoro wrote: | Well the only image viewer i love to use is mirage but they have masked it because pygtk is buggy, on mirage website the creator didn't say nothing about it.
... |
On my overlay (https://github.com/ferion11/danrepo), i'm keeping media-gfx/mirage with python3.6. There is also the media-gfx/fragment that is faster when opening very big images.
And to painting, i have media-gfx/mtpaint (it can run on a 200MHz CPU and 16MB of free RAM). I use it to take screenshot ($ mtpaint -s) too |
You're a life savior seriously thanks for keeping this treasure.
Also sorry to bump this thread but i finally managed to install gentoo musl (i didn't finish to install the system at the moment).
However i have nothing something really weird or probably amazing:
i use MAKEOPTS=-j16
- Compiling under gentoo classic the temperature of my cpu is hot
- Compiling under gentoo musl the temperature of my cpu is normal
Maybe because it doesn't use Glibc so that's why my cpu doesn't get hot
edit A: i notice an other thing there is no locale.gen even locale-gen command doesn't exit from gentoo musl
edit B: too much packages who can't be compiled, no multilib (gentoo wiki didn't mention that). I go back to gentoo classic >.< |
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Menelkir
n00b
Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 7
Location: Punta Arenas, CL
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:52 am Post subject: |
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If you need some packages that aren't in the tree, you have three choices:
1) Search https://gpo.zugaina.org and if you want, add the repository via layman in your system. Or add the ebuilds found to a personal local repo (I prefer in this way, that's how my overlay born).
2) Ask for someone in some repo to update or, if the person is nice, if it's possible to this person to make this ebuild for you
3) Make it yourself
Isn't too hard to make ebuilds but sometimes you'll get harsh conditions that your knowledge will limits you to finish what you want, so you can search the documentation or politely ask for help in #gentoo-dev-help @ freenode (been there, done that, people there are very helpful).
I've found two of the packages you want there, look:
https://gpo.zugaina.org/app-admin/grub-customizer
https://gpo.zugaina.org/net-im/chatty-bin
And thanks for using my overlay. |
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Hu
Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 21724
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| To add to Menelkir's advice, you can also seek ebuild development assistance on these forums. When you do, show your work so far and what is not working, including any error messages. |
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ununu
n00b
Joined: 19 Apr 2020
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:49 pm Post subject: become a dev |
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| nenoro wrote: |
Gentoo Team lack of reactivity and i'm not good to make an ebuild for each package i want to update or install.
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gentoo, musl, fringe DM ... Those aren't mainstream choices and thus it's hard to expect somebody maintaining your personal choices.
however gentoo portage design offers the capability to manage custom ebuilds and at some point it's worth learning making an ebuild. if you use layouts already tweaking an ebuild is the next natural step.
i've also realized about some missing ebuilds compared to other distros but i wouldn't blame the devs for it. The tools are available to get started and there's also plenty of documentation.
don't forget, you become part of the team. |
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Ant P.
Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| nenoro wrote: | However i have nothing something really weird or probably amazing:
i use MAKEOPTS=-j16
- Compiling under gentoo classic the temperature of my cpu is hot
- Compiling under gentoo musl the temperature of my cpu is normal
Maybe because it doesn't use Glibc so that's why my cpu doesn't get hot |
Ricing cannot break the laws of thermodynamics. More likely your CPU is going underutilised from lack of vector-optimised code. |
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kurly
Apprentice
Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Menelkir wrote: | | 1) Search https://gpo.zugaina.org and if you want, add the repository via layman in your system. Or add the ebuilds found to a personal local repo (I prefer in this way, that's how my overlay born). |
app-eselect/eselect-repository is much simpler both to use and in terms of code complexity when compared to layman; you might enjoy it. portage itself can do most of the things that layman used to be needed for. |
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Menelkir
n00b
Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 7
Location: Punta Arenas, CL
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| kurly wrote: | | Menelkir wrote: | | 1) Search https://gpo.zugaina.org and if you want, add the repository via layman in your system. Or add the ebuilds found to a personal local repo (I prefer in this way, that's how my overlay born). |
app-eselect/eselect-repository is much simpler both to use and in terms of code complexity when compared to layman; you might enjoy it. portage itself can do most of the things that layman used to be needed for. |
Didn't know that, I actually have only two repositories in my machine: gentoo and mine. Everything I need something that isn't in official tree, I just add to mine, so there's no much problem to debug in case something goes wrong. But it's my preference. |
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