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pranyi
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AlterEgo
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 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Aren't patents great fun  |
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skunkworx
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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The good news is supposedly this new licensing scheme only applies to removable media (flash cards, etc.) and devices with embedded file systems (portable audio players, etc.). The bad news is that could change whenever Microsoft feels like it.
Speculation is that Microsoft is hoping to discourage manufacturers from using FAT and instead using one of their newer, fancier, DRM-enabled file systems. The hope is that manufacturers will instead switch to an open file system, or sell their products unformatted. |
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scootersmk
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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I will try to spare you guys from all my ranting, but seriously, I think this is rediculous. Soon we are going to find out that they have a patent on clicking the mouse button. So, then they will get a fraction of a penny for every click.
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Athas
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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Depending on what MS does with the FAT32 patent, my WinXP partition may go to the eternal realms of /dev/null... I've always wanted to install FreeBSD somewhere anyways 
Seriously, though, if I can't exchange data between WinXP and Linux, I don't see any reason to keep the former - I can live without the games.
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jpc82
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| But wasn't FAT compeltly reverse enginered? Then don't we have the right to use FAT, as long as all the code is 100% original? |
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CharlieS
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Joined: 06 Nov 2003
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Location: Texas, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Let me tell you what is bad about this.. Microsoft is soooo sneaky.. they havnt complained before at all. that is why it is the most used for all of this media we have now.. but now that it is popular because it was free they are going to make you pay for it.
this is all because they knew the community would have made a new free filesystem if they had to pay at first....
They get you hooked and the Screw you.. |
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guy
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:11 pm Post subject: my guess... |
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It seems to me like MS is trying to shift people towards NTFS or the new WinFS, which would strongly lock them to MS-only compatibility. I don't think it's a direct attack on open source, nor is it seeking to profit from FAT32 usage directly.
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pranyi
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: my guess... |
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| guy wrote: | | I don't think it's a direct attack on open source, nor is it seeking to profit from FAT32 usage directly. |
I agree with the second part. However, I strongly disagree with the first assumption.
I am quite sure that m$ looks open source, especially free softwares, as their most important enemy. |
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Evangelion
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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In short: no. This is about embedded devices and such. Linux can use it just fine. Besides, the Linux-implementation is reverse-engineered and not from Microsoft.
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pranyi
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Evangelion wrote: | | Besides, the Linux-implementation is reverse-engineered and not from Microsoft. |
If the FAT is covered by patents, then it does not matter whether it's reverse engineered, you may have to pay royalties. |
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Peaceable Frood
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| pranyi wrote: | | Evangelion wrote: | | Besides, the Linux-implementation is reverse-engineered and not from Microsoft. |
If the FAT is covered by patents, then it does not matter whether it's reverse engineered, you may have to pay royalties. |
However it was reversed-engineered for interoperablilty, and there is nothing Microsoft can do about it. Think about it, they would have already C&D developement on reverse-engineering FAT if they could, as Linux is their number 1 advesary in the marketplace.
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pranyi
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| What does C&D mean? |
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guy
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:56 pm Post subject: Re: my guess... |
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| pranyi wrote: | | guy wrote: | | I don't think it's a direct attack on open source, nor is it seeking to profit from FAT32 usage directly. |
I agree with the second part. However, I strongly disagree with the first assumption.
I am quite sure that m$ looks open source, especially free softwares, as their most important enemy. |
I definitely stated that wrong.. I didn't mean a direct attack as in their going against OS, I meant a DIRECT attack as in up front / straight-to-the-point of what they want to accomplish. They want to lock people into MS products, but as usual not because they're better, but because people are scared of the alternatives.. MS forces them to choose 1 and only 1 solution.
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skunkworx
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| pranyi wrote: | | What does C&D mean? |
Cease and Desist. Lawyer-speak for "Don't do that or we'll sue the bejeezus out of you, even if the law says you can do that." |
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jonfr
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| Athas wrote: | Depending on what MS does with the FAT32 patent, my WinXP partition may go to the eternal realms of /dev/null... I've always wanted to install FreeBSD somewhere anyways
Seriously, though, if I can't exchange data between WinXP and Linux, I don't see any reason to keep the former - I can live without the games. |
Yea, soon as i loose FAT32 support in linux, Windows goes bye bye... |
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TenPin
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 2:20 am Post subject: |
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I'm not even sure if Microsoft could force the removal of FAT support from the kernel even if they wanted to. The kernel is developed by people all over the world, some in places where the law won't cater to MS needs.
Also I don't think theres any way someone could be succesfully prosecuted for writing a driver capable of accessing FAT. Thats like saying you can't write some software allowing you to read video information from a DVD.... ummm hang on a minute ;) IANAL but theres a distinct difference between circumventing a patented security layer and just reading plain information.
I think the worse that could ever happen is that binary distros such as redhat would have to load FAT support as a module. It could never affect Gentoo as a patch could eaily be applied.
Of course Microsoft have the full right to charge what they like for the use of their FAT. If I was a media manufaturer I would just stop preformatting the media, its not exactly hard to format a USB flash drive or anything similar. If it was a device that needed a FAT already installed I'd just switch to an open standard, I'm sure one could develop a windows driver for ext2 for less than $250k. |
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Lews_Therin
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Joined: 03 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 6:57 am Post subject: |
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There is no way MS can get away with enforcing this reliably.
Any company that manufactures these would just have to insert a few lines into the installer, and Windows formats the thing royalty-free. Or they could turn to ext2/ext3/reiserfs.
As for linux support being removed, this is also impossible. There would quickly be an unofficial patch out to add MSFS support back in, possibly even packages for RH/Mandrake/Slack. |
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Evangelion
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:36 am Post subject: |
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Like I said, this does not affect Linux AT ALL. By RTFW you will notice these lines:
| Quote: | * A license for removable solid state media manufacturers to preformat the media, such as compact flash memory cards, to the Microsoft FAT file system format, and to preload data onto such preformatted media using the Microsoft FAT file system format. Pricing for this license is US$0.25 per unit with a cap on total royalties of $250,000 per manufacturer.
* A license for manufacturers of certain consumer electronics devices. Pricing for this license is US$0.25 per unit for each of the following types of devices that use removable solid state media to store data: portable digital still cameras; portable digital video cameras; portable digital still/video cameras; portable digital audio players; portable digital video players; portable digital audio/video players; multifunction printers; electronic photo frames; electronic musical instruments; and standard televisions. Pricing for this license is US$0.25 per unit with a cap on total royalties of $250,000 per licensee. Pricing for other device types can be negotiated with Microsoft. |
How could this affect Linux? Only way would be if Linux was embedded in a consumer-electronic-device and it used FAT as it's filesystem. And why would anyone do so?
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Clete2
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Evangelion wrote: | Like I said, this does not affect Linux AT ALL. By RTFW you will notice these lines:
| Quote: | * A license for removable solid state media manufacturers to preformat the media, such as compact flash memory cards, to the Microsoft FAT file system format, and to preload data onto such preformatted media using the Microsoft FAT file system format. Pricing for this license is US$0.25 per unit with a cap on total royalties of $250,000 per manufacturer.
* A license for manufacturers of certain consumer electronics devices. Pricing for this license is US$0.25 per unit for each of the following types of devices that use removable solid state media to store data: portable digital still cameras; portable digital video cameras; portable digital still/video cameras; portable digital audio players; portable digital video players; portable digital audio/video players; multifunction printers; electronic photo frames; electronic musical instruments; and standard televisions. Pricing for this license is US$0.25 per unit with a cap on total royalties of $250,000 per licensee. Pricing for other device types can be negotiated with Microsoft. |
How could this affect Linux? Only way would be if Linux was embedded in a consumer-electronic-device and it used FAT as it's filesystem. And why would anyone do so? |
Many people mount their FAT drives in Linux (I run Gentoo/Windows98 dual boot for games, XP sucks at games, too much of a RAM hog)...
So I have a FAT32, they're talking about Microsoft will sue the crap out of Linus for keeping it in the kernel...
Oh, I'm sorry, my USB pen drive runs FAT... Sue me |
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scootersmk
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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I just think it is amazingly funny how scared they are of Open-source distros. I mean look at lindows. That distro was aweful and it scared them to death. I really think that they are just hanging on for their lives because they know that the tables will eventually turn and they will soon be the ones getting screwed. They are just trying to suck out every possible penny(or shouold i say quarter) out of the market while the still can......
How about this slogan:
Linux: Opening Doors, Closing Windows
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Oopsz
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| CharlieS wrote: | Let me tell you what is bad about this.. Microsoft is soooo sneaky.. they havnt complained before at all. that is why it is the most used for all of this media we have now.. but now that it is popular because it was free they are going to make you pay for it.
this is all because they knew the community would have made a new free filesystem if they had to pay at first....
They get you hooked and the Screw you.. |
same thing happened with LZW and .Z/.gif files. .Zs basically died in favour of .gz and .bz2, but .gifs are still going strong, even though the superior and patent free .png format has been around forever..
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je4d
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Evangelion wrote: | Like I said, this does not affect Linux AT ALL. By RTFW you will notice these lines:
<snip>
How could this affect Linux? Only way would be if Linux was embedded in a consumer-electronic-device and it used FAT as it's filesystem. And why would anyone do so? |
Whilst this may not affect linux right here and now, saying it doesnt affect linux is quite short sighted. Imgine this:
ms charges for use of FAT in portable devices.
all new portable devices start using winfs/ntfs to avoid royalties. ext3/reiser etc are not options for these people, because windows doesnt support them.
NTFS is a bitch to implement, hence why linux doesnt have (native) write support for it. WinFS is a completely unknown quantity.
Suddenly, no new portable devices can be used in linux.
say goodbye to linux on the desktop..
So I dont think the target is to get FAT out of the linux kernel at all.
-J. |
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patson
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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I completely agree with je4d. This is not a direct strike at Linux and other open source operating systems, it's an action that has the desired side effect of rendering certain devices unusable on Linux.
That is, of course, unless someone makes a WinFS driver using Wine... Which you would basically have the right to use if you've purchased Windows. 
Last time I checked the EULA didn't expressly state that the use of Windows .dlls in systems other than those manufactured by Microsloth is illegal and acceptable grounds for immediate execution.
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Evangelion
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Clete2 wrote: | | Many people mount their FAT drives in Linux (I run Gentoo/Windows98 dual boot for games, XP sucks at games, too much of a RAM hog)... |
But that is NOT the subject of this licensing. This license is about mass-storage (flash.drives and such. They don't have OS) and embedded devices (that CAN run on Linux, but why would they use FAT in that case?)
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