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lutel
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 19 Oct 2003
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Location: Pomroczna
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 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:59 pm Post subject: Gentoo on Macbook Air/Pro M1 (ARM64) |
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| I see there is ARM64 project ongoing in Gentoo. Will Gentoo run in future on Apple M1? When could it happen, what is needed to make it happen? |
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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lutel,
i'm sure it can happen. I'm equally sure Apple will make it difficult.
First of all, Linux needs to be ported ta Apples variant of arm64, then Gentoo needs to test it.
That will need access to some Apple M1 hardware.
Personally, I'm not an Apple fan, so I won't be spending my own money on an M1.
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NeddySeagoon
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lutel
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 19 Oct 2003
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Location: Pomroczna
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| There are more people involved in ARM64 project https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:ARM64 - i hope the team will help in transition. Looking at the early benchmarks it seems that Apple just flushed down the toilet 40 years of x86 development. I was working on Gentoo for last 15 years, but now the performance that M1 offer is just amazing, I'm switching to MacOS, homebrew is catching up, I can move my workflow there. I really hope Gentoo could installed on M1 in future. |
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steve_v
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| lutel wrote: | | the performance that M1 offer is just amazing |
I'm sure it is. A pity the rest of the hardware design and the company behind it are such trash.
When Apple pulls head out of arse and stops fighting right-to-repair, stops extorting third-party developers, and allows consumers to do what they want with the hardware they buy, I'll consider buying an apple product. Not before.
| lutel wrote: | | I'm switching to MacOS, homebrew is catching up, I can move my workflow there. |
Have fun with that.
| lutel wrote: | | I really hope Gentoo could installed on M1 in future. |
If you want to donate the hardware and spend the time to reverse-engineer the drivers they almost certainly won't release or break the locked bootloader they will almost certainly include, go right ahead. I'll be spending my time on something more productive and supporting manufacturers who don't go out of their way to make life difficult.
I sincerely hope the Gentoo/Linux/GNU devs do the same, there are a bunch of interesting (and far more deserving) open-hardware projects out there that could use it.
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lutel
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 19 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
Location: Pomroczna
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If you want to donate the hardware and spend the time to reverse-engineer the drivers they almost certainly won't release or break the locked bootloader they will almost certainly include, go right ahead. |
If I was a rich man I'd be more than happy to to that. Actually this is something that Apple should do, to really support all developers, not only with hardware but to pay them. I'll keep running Gentoo on servers, but as a workstation I see no reason to stay in x86 ecosystem, performance/efficiency gap is just too huge. I really hope to run emerge command on M1 some day, I hope Apple will open bootloader and provide decent docs for Linux community. I bet Linux could unleash much more performance from Apple ARM implementation than MacOS. |
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:09 am Post subject: |
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lutel,
Apple are not the only arm64 game in town. The CPU is not even Apple IPR, its ARM.
They have provided the IO that sits around the ARM core.
| Scottie wrote: | | You cannae break the laws of physics captain |
So anything that Apple can do, others can do too.
No need to pay over the odds for a closed system that you struggle to open.
Get some other arm64 system and stop baning your head against the Apple wall.
Its been said that if Apple made bathrooms, when you needed a new tap washer for your Apple bathroom, you would have to buy a whole new bathroom. I don't see any Apple hardware moving away from that.
Moving to ARM only makes the vendor lock in easier for Apple.
Then, I'm old and cynical and remember Apollo and the other proprietary workstation vendors, so with a bit of luck, this is history repeating itself.
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
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lutel
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 19 Oct 2003
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Location: Pomroczna
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Get some other arm64 system and stop baning your head against the Apple wall. |
Show me any ARM64 system which comes close to performance/efficiency of M1. Their implementation of ARM is incredible, this is first step to break domination of x86, sooner or later we all have no joice but to enter ARM realm. If not into Apple, then maybe NVIDIA if they will be able to create something similar (hopefully). If Apple can deliver performance of latest desktop CPUs to laptop and cool it passively, then even though I support open-sauce with all my heart, I'll jump on Apple wagon.
It seems they do support some of the open-source projects, I hope Gentoo will get on their list as well before any other Linux distribution will ally with them.
https://twitter.com/wongmjane/status/1275177255681982464 |
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steve_v
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| lutel wrote: | | this is first step to break domination of x86 |
There is no "domination" of x86, ARM is already extremely popular in low-energy devices and powers almost the entire phone/tablet/IOT space.
| lutel wrote: | | If Apple can deliver performance of latest desktop CPUs to laptop and cool it passively, then even though I support open-sauce with all my heart, I'll jump on Apple wagon. |
If apple can cool anything effectively, passively or otherwise, I'll be most surprised.
I'm already surprised that anyone who supports open sauce[sic] with all their heart would be so eager to back the what is likely least freedom-compatible hardware manufacturer on the planet... Apparently over the elimination of a CPU cooling fan.
| lutel wrote: | | It seems they do support some of the open-source projects |
Sure. Patches for open source projects Apple wants to show off benchmarks with or otherwise have available on their platform. Note that none of them are operating system kernels or compete directly with apple software.
i.e. apple supporting things that directly benefit apple.
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Ant P.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| lutel wrote: | | this is first step to break domination of x86 |
Talos, RISC-V, Raspberry Pi. Speaking of which, the latter costs 1/10th what a M1 Mini does and runs Gentoo out of the box without making you feel like a criminal for doing so.
The thing about voting with your wallet is that you don't turn around and demand free effort from others. |
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lutel
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 19 Oct 2003
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Location: Pomroczna
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The thing about voting with your wallet is that you don't turn around and demand free effort from others.
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I just want the performance on silent computer, nothing currently comes close to M1. Maybe in 5 years AMD/Intel will have something that can compete with M1, but then we will have M2 or M3 most probably. Hardware costs money anyway. So i'm willing to pay premium to Apple knowing they actually do something to move computing forward. Last 10 years we had stagnation in x86 ecosystem. Comparing M1 to Raspberry or other ARM technology is a joke.
As I said I'll stay with Gentoo on servers, knowing that from now on I'm working on legacy technology which will be replaced by ARM in couple of years. I don't "demand free effort", as I said, Apple should support the effort, and they do. It is not a matter of money. Some people are too conservative and stubborn to advance in technology. You can continue to live under the rock like Intel/AMD did for past decades.
People will switch to new technology regardless if Linux will migrate or not. The performance gap is too wide. All resistance is futile. If Linux community refuse to adapt, it will be great loss to community and open-source, not Apple. |
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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lutel,
I bet the benchmarks are a cold system, so that there is no thermal throttling.
Like so many light portable systems, the cooling is compromised for battery life, weight and size.
As a result, long term performance suffers.
Things that look too good to be true usually are.
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
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steve_v
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Posts: 409
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| lutel wrote: | | I just want the performance on silent computer |
Ahh, so it is about the CPU fan. I never knew souls came so cheap.
| lutel wrote: | | nothing currently comes close to M1. |
Rubbish. Maybe for laptops and low-power devices, but if you think your little MacBook is going to compete in the server/workstation/compute market you're plain deluded. Only 16GB non-upgradeable memory? Laughable. 8 cores? Pshh.
I have many times more computing horsepower sitting on my desk right now, and for a fraction of the price.
Oddly enough there are applications where being quiet, light, or portable is irrelevant. There, real iron does and will continue to dominate.
| lutel wrote: | | Hardware costs money anyway. So i'm willing to pay premium to Apple knowing they actually do something to move computing forward. |
Hardware costs money, so I'm utterly unwilling to pay premium to apple knowing they constantly screw over their customers, application developers, and independent support providers.
| lutel wrote: | | I'm working on legacy technology which will be replaced by ARM in couple of years. |
Wanna bet on that?
| lutel wrote: | | Apple should support the effort, and they do. |
How? What funding is apple is providing the Linux foundation or the FSF? Where are their commits to the kernel tree?
| lutel wrote: | | You can continue to live under the rock like Intel/AMD did for past decades. |
I'll continue to use and purchase hardware that is reasonably priced, widely compatible, extensible, modifiable, repairable, and respects my freedom. If one day it's made by apple, so be it. That day isn't today.
Right now I'm far more interested in Raptor Computing/OpenPOWER and where RISC-V might be going than yet another arm soc.
| lutel wrote: | | The performance gap is too wide. All resistance is futile. |
They invade our schools, and we fall back. They assimilate entire organisations, and we fall back.
Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!
Why oh why do I get sucked into arguing with rabid fanboys anyway? I should know by now it's pointless...
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lutel
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 19 Oct 2003
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Location: Pomroczna
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I bet the benchmarks are a cold system, so that there is no thermal throttling. |
They do throttle (Air - one without fan) but not after seconds like Intel/AMD, but 6-8 minutes of full load... And thats only 10-30%.
Sounds too good to be true? Check reviews. Really for me there is no point to keep desktop anymore when I can have the same performance, without moving parts, in small laptop. I've been using Intel CPUs for ~30 years, with one generation of AMD, but for me the times of x86 are over. Intel/AMD will die in 10 years and they deserve this fate.
RIP x86. |
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steve_v
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| lutel wrote: | | not after seconds like Intel/AMD |
After seconds like Intel-based macbooks you mean. See comment above regarding apple cooling solutions.
I have a not-apple x86 laptop here that doesn't thermal throttle at all, if you're throttling immediately there's something wrong with your cooling design, not your CPU architecture.
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lutel
Tux's lil' helper
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | After seconds like Intel-based macbooks you mean. See comment above regarding apple cooling solutions.
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What a joke, I'm talking about no-fan solutions. Of course with blowing fan nothing will throttle (including Macs with shitty Intels)
| Quote: | I have a not-apple x86 laptop here that doesn't thermal throttle at all, if you're throttling immediately there's something wrong with your cooling design, not your CPU architecture.
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If you don't see difference between having and not having fan then discussion is pointless. For you "proper cooling" is to have blowing fan. For me "proper cooling" is ability to cool passively. The difference is Apple can always add a fan, but with Intel/AMD you cannot run laptop without a fan. Apple delivers performance of I7-9700K but at 5-10% of power usage. Maybe you like the sound of the laptop fan, whatever floats your boat. Apple M1 is faster than your laptop AND dead silent at the same time (for you it means that there is something "wrong with cooling design" LOL). But yeah, buy yourself AMD/Intel, milions of flies cannot be wrong, and you will feel free because you can give money to Intel/AMD, even though they will never be able to catch up with Apple Silicon. |
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steve_v
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| lutel wrote: | | I'm talking about no-fan solutions. |
If you don't state that your comparison applies only to fanless designs, you don't get comparisons with only fanless designs.
| lutel wrote: | | If you don't see difference between having and not having fan then discussion is pointless. |
I understand the difference, I just don't care one iota whether my machine has active cooling or not, so long as it does it's job.
| lutel wrote: | | For you "proper cooling" is to have blowing fan. For me "proper cooling" is ability to cool passively. |
Proper cooling is whatever is required to maintain a reasonable die temperature under full load.
| lutel wrote: | | Maybe you like the sound of the laptop fan, whatever floats your boat. |
I like my systems to not thermal throttle, it's as simple as that. If that means it needs a fan, a fan it will have.
| lutel wrote: | | you will feel free because you can give money to Intel/AMD |
Actually, my next hardware purchase will quite likely be giving money to IBM, and I'll feel a whole lot less dirty than if I'd given money to an exploitative, controlling anti-consumer corporation for the sake of something so trivial as a quieter PC.
Why IBM? Because there's a tasty looking POWER9 platform out there with fully open-source firmware, microcode and BMC, and it's specifically designed with GNU/Linux in mind.
It's also a whole lot bigger, noisier, and more powerful than a MacBook will ever be, but that's just fine with me, I have no fear of those nasty cooling fans.
But I really shouldn't be arguing with an apple fanboy, and this is straying far off topic. So I'll stop. Good luck porting Gentoo to the M1 SOC, I look forward to reading your commits.
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GDH-gentoo
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| lutel wrote: | | Actually this is something that Apple should do, to really support all developers, not only with hardware but to pay them. [...], I hope Apple will open bootloader and provide decent docs for Linux community. I bet Linux could unleash much more performance from Apple ARM implementation than MacOS. |
| lutel wrote: | | It seems they do support some of the open-source projects, I hope Gentoo will get on their list as well before any other Linux distribution will ally with them. |
"I hope, I hope". Unless the day all of this happens is today, I honestly do not see the point of this thread... |
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Hu
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Moved from Installing Gentoo to Gentoo Chat, on the basis that this is not a question about how to install Gentoo on a specific device, but rather discussion about whether a given class of devices will ever run Linux in general, along with a deviation into discussing the merits of the device's design. |
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Zucca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | Things that look too good to be true usually are. |
Sooner or later someone manages to install 3rd party OS on ARM Mac.
Before that people with ARM Mac can probably run portage on macOS.
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LordArthas
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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Hello!
My 2 cents: I think the most interesting thing of this switch to M1, is that there will be a lot of good-level "legacy" Intel-based Apple hardware where to install Gentoo Linux.
Michele.
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mir3x
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| lutel wrote: | | Quote: | | Get some other arm64 system and stop baning your head against the Apple wall. |
Show me any ARM64 system which comes close to performance/efficiency of M1. Their implementation of ARM is incredible, this is first step to break domination of x86, sooner or later we all have no joice but to enter ARM realm. If not into Apple, then maybe NVIDIA if they will be able to create something similar (hopefully). If Apple can deliver performance of latest desktop CPUs to laptop and cool it passively, then even though I support open-sauce with all my heart, I'll jump on Apple wagon.
It seems they do support some of the open-source projects, I hope Gentoo will get on their list as well before any other Linux distribution will ally with them.
https://twitter.com/wongmjane/status/1275177255681982464 |
1 year ago I wrote that I update my whole world in 30 minutes on snapdragon 7790 in 2025.
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1104962-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-25.html
When Snapdragon jumps on 5mm they will have similar performance like M1 and bc of M1 new laptops with snaps will come next year for sure.
Except sponsoring clang Apple never did anything good for community. And they are known for making crapware like quicktime/safari for windows and blocking any attempts to mimic their soft.
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Zucca
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| Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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I managed to get my hands on one MacBook Pro with M1. That thing is quiet, but it had some MAJOR hiccups.
I mean almost ten second freezes while browsing the web. I don't know if it was thermals or just OS bug.
But yeah. I wouldn't get one, at least yet. I'd wait for the second generation.
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mir3x
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Apple M1 lasts only 3h of compiling time or playing demanding game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yLV07YVaJo
Seems in other tasks is using efficiency cores.
It doesnt look revolutionary at all now.
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Zucca
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Some drivers haven't yet caught up with Apple ARM. I witnessed a quite a headache with a certain driver with M1 MacBook Pro.
I'd say these kinds of problems are gone when M2 hardware comes out. Early adopters suffer.
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| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
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Morality124
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | Some drivers haven't yet caught up with Apple ARM. I witnessed a quite a headache with a certain driver with M1 MacBook Pro.
I'd say these kinds of problems are gone when M2 hardware comes out. Early adopters suffer. |
M2 is already the chip they include with Intel Macs though? That will be confusing.
Louis Rossmann is such a good source for Apple part trivia.
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