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| How many Gentoo machines do you maintain? |
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24% |
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14% |
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16% |
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13% |
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4% |
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| more than 5 |
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24% |
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| what the hell, you run Gentoo? You masochist... |
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1% |
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| Total Votes : 115 |
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gtwrek
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 110
Location: San Jose, CA
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 Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:46 am Post subject: |
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9 physical Gentoo machines
2 virtual
1. Main Desktop box. Only box with a keyboard/mouse/display.
2. Gateway/Router/Firewall box (old - not updated in many years)
3. New gateway/Router box - not quite deployed, will replace (2)
4. NFS Server (lots of spinning rust)
5. Backup server (different spinning rust, in different physical location)
6. Raspberry Pi4B Living room Kodi box
7. Raspberry Pi4B management box (serial connection to (2) for configuration/updates - probably overkill hardware for what it's used for)
8. Raspberry Pi3B for Airplay-like receiver in my wood shop
9. Raspberry PI (Original) running my Sprinkler system (Gentoo ARM 32-bit - not updated in many years)
10. Virtual machine running on (1) for experiments. Recycled/Re-setup frequently.
11. Virtual machine running on (3) for actually running my gateway/router/firewall functions within the VM
Updates (unless noted) every ~2 weeks. I strive for very minimal installs - I don't need much (-systemd -pam -elogind -gnome -policykit -consolekit). Currently all manually updated, but am very interested in this thread to see if there's nuggets to help me automate some/parts of the process. Rust is the time hog lately. Time hog is annoying, but whatever - Python problems on the other hand are the frustrating problems... I've no need for any python specifics, just whatever portage needs to build what I need - I often just blindly add what portage tells me to add with respect to python. I think me blindly doing this often causes more trouble further down the road... |
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eccerr0r
Watchman
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 9824
Location: almost Mile High in the USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Current scoreboard as of 2021Feb21:
amd64 machines completed 17.1 migration: 4
amd64 machines updated, pending migration: 1 (VMM Server)
amd64 machines update in progress: 0
amd64 machines pending: 0
amd64 machines deliberately ignored: 1 (VM)
i686 machines updated: 3
i686 machines in progress: 1 (old laptop)
i686 machines pending: 0
i686 machines ignored: ?
Almost done, still a ways to go... slow machines don't go fast...
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Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon R7 250/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
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Last edited by eccerr0r on Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:23 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Tom_
Guru
Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 448
Location: France
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:08 am Post subject: |
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This thread is very instructive. It's good to see how you manage your systems and how you take advantage of Gentoo flexibility 
I maintain only one Gentoo box, which my main desktop system at home.
Update frequency evolves with time :
- sometimes, I don't update my computer at all (except a few things like Firefox) for a few weeks/months
- on other times, i could update it daily
From time to time, I mask packages to post-pone updates or massive rebuilds.
I would love to have an easy way to prevent massive rebuilds due to some minor updates on some libraries.
| pjp wrote: |
start with workstation. No GUI, fewer problems.
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Out of curiosity, what is the purpose of a workstation without a GUI? Do you use it as a server ? No offense at all, I just would like to know more |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20485
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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I guess it depends on how you define workstation and server. It doesn't really provide any services, so that makes it not seem like a server to me.
I mostly use it as you would a local home directory / physical system, except that I access it remotely via tmux and not a local terminal.
Because of the system I mentioned earlier being in limbo, I've had to temporarily use the workstation to provide BINHOST services, but I didn't have another option.
I guess some might think of that as a server. As an SA, I think of servers as being something a bit less adhoc and desktop-like. And a testing environment might use physical servers while not offering any services typically provided by such a system. All of how I use it seems more like how a person would use a workstation, not a server.
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figueroa
Advocate
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 3005
Location: Edge of marsh USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:21 am Post subject: |
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That seems like a convoluted description of workstation vs server.
A workstation is a computer that one sits in front of and works on. A server provides services (files, web, mail, date & time, portage, and so on) by some kind of network (serisl, ethernet, usb, firewire) to local and/or remote workstations and /or other servers.
What do you think?
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Andy Figueroa
hp pavilion hpe h8-1260t/2AB5; spinning rust x3
i7-2600 @ 3.40GHz; 16 gb; Radeon HD 7570
amd64/23.0/split-usr/desktop (stable), OpenRC, -systemd -pulseaudio -uefi |
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dmpogo
Advocate
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 3425
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| figueroa wrote: | That seems like a convoluted description of workstation vs server.
A workstation is a computer that one sits in front of and works on. A server provides services (files, web, mail, date & time, portage, and so on) by some kind of network (serisl, ethernet, usb, firewire) to local and/or remote workstations and /or other servers.
What do you think? |
From the point of configuration/management for me a server is a machine where I do not have to worry about and/or optimize graphics/desktop management environment. If I need to setup accelerated graphics card and tune kde or something - then it is workstation. As a corollary, a server does not have services that are provided by desktop enviroment, such as power management, automount, fancy input devices. If I need any of this, they have to be configured independently on desktop environment. |
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Blind_Sniper
Guru
Joined: 20 Apr 2018
Posts: 362
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:05 am Post subject: |
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Using two machines with gentoo.
Thinking of quitting at least one of that gentoos in favour of PCLinuxOS. Really nice, fast and stable systemd-free rolling release OS.
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| figueroa wrote: | That seems like a convoluted description of workstation vs server.
A workstation is a computer that one sits in front of and works on. A server provides services (files, web, mail, date & time, portage, and so on) by some kind of network (serial, ethernet, usb, firewire) to local and/or remote workstations and /or other servers.
What do you think? |
I have a machine that I call my server. I rarely do a graphical login, actually only to access my router's web page. The router is located only about three feet away.
I store my video collection on this machine and serve it to IOT devices (Firestick). I also sync this machine to the Gentoo portage servers and sync all my other machines to it.
I have two machines that I do e-mail and internet on, write letters on, develop software on, and such. These I call my workstations.
I think this matches your definition.
I also have two old boxes, on Win 7, one Gentoo, that record OTA television using dedicated PCI/PCie cards. I think of these as appliances.
Oh, I also have a Raspberry Pi B that uses the family room big TV as a screen (via one of the HDMI inputs) and runs Xine to display video stored on the server.
How would you classify these other systems? I think of them as embedded devices. |
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figueroa
Advocate
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 3005
Location: Edge of marsh USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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I think the term "appliance" rounds out the machine type quite nicely when uses are isolated.
It's quite possible for a user's workstation to provide server functions and appliance functions concurrently. The lines are easily blurred.
My very old x86 machine, formerly my primary desktop workstation, has been demoted to "server" and no longer runs a gui and nobody ever uses it directly to do "work." It handles the mail, provides a web interface, portage local server, and handles certain other files. It evolved over time.
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Andy Figueroa
hp pavilion hpe h8-1260t/2AB5; spinning rust x3
i7-2600 @ 3.40GHz; 16 gb; Radeon HD 7570
amd64/23.0/split-usr/desktop (stable), OpenRC, -systemd -pulseaudio -uefi |
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eccerr0r
Watchman
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 9824
Location: almost Mile High in the USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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The line is very fuzzy but I think the amount of work to upgrade each time has its own challenges...
Workstation - I define as a computer one person sits at console and is primary user. Typically NO remote users.
Usually has GUI and has complex dependencies. Interferes with only one person at a time if brought down.
Server - Machine that does not typically use console and serves multiple people. Usually mission critical and would interfere with multiple people at the same time if brought down.
Appliance - Machine that only does one thing and inflexible to do other stuff. Usually locked down and difficult to upgrade/update due to inflexibility, usually limited storage/memory/cpu. Interferes with one service if brought down.
Again it's frequently very fuzzy to define the difference between them. And if people hack them to do more than what they were originally meant to do, then it blurs the line even more.
I can't say if any one of these are more or less of a challenge to deal with when running Gentoo on them and having to do an upgrade.
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| figueroa wrote: | | My very old x86 machine, formerly my primary desktop workstation, has been demoted to "server" and no longer runs a gui and nobody ever uses it directly to do "work." It handles the mail, provides a web interface, portage local server, and handles certain other files. It evolved over time. |
I forgot to say that my server also provides DHCP and DNS for the LAN. The router only proves NAT & firewall. |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20485
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| figueroa wrote: | That seems like a convoluted description of workstation vs server.
A workstation is a computer that one sits in front of and works on. A server provides services (files, web, mail, date & time, portage, and so on) by some kind of network (serisl, ethernet, usb, firewire) to local and/or remote workstations and /or other servers.
What do you think? |
I think convoluted means something other than you think it means? So if I go sit next to the hardware in question, it is a workstation, but if I'm not sitting near it, then it becomes a server? Is this Schrodinger's Computing Device?
Consider whichever version of MS Windows desktop that had the option to run IIS (or whatever web server). Did that suddenly change from being a desktop to a server?
My workstation does not provide mail, time or portage*. But for now, I should call it a server because it is running a web server, but once I turn that off, it is no longer a server? That sounds complicated if not convoluted. What about the days of using serial cables to transfer files between systems? Was the laptop in that exchange a server because it was providing files via "some kind of network"?
* The system does the "work" of creating a squashfs images of ::gentoo and I use sftp to transfer it (because scp is actually useful but deprecated). I also transfer other files between systems. I guess for some of those transfers, the laptop becomes a server.
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20485
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| dmpogo wrote: | | From the point of configuration/management for me a server is a machine where I do not have to worry about and/or optimize graphics/desktop management environment. If I need to setup accelerated graphics card and tune kde or something - then it is workstation. As a corollary, a server does not have services that are provided by desktop enviroment, such as power management, automount, fancy input devices. If I need any of this, they have to be configured independently on desktop environment. |
Then I suggest you do not work with Oracle DB or Weblogic, and possibly other Java based software that typically runs on servers. ~$100k systems (not counting support) with a GUI to run a Java configuration wizard.  
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dmpogo
Advocate
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 3425
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | dmpogo wrote: | | From the point of configuration/management for me a server is a machine where I do not have to worry about and/or optimize graphics/desktop management environment. If I need to setup accelerated graphics card and tune kde or something - then it is workstation. As a corollary, a server does not have services that are provided by desktop enviroment, such as power management, automount, fancy input devices. If I need any of this, they have to be configured independently on desktop environment. |
Then I suggest you do not work with Oracle DB or Weblogic, and possibly other Java based software that typically runs on servers. ~$100k systems (not counting support) with a GUI to run a Java configuration wizard. |
And you are right, I am not working with either Oracle DB or Weblogic, or any Java software at all |
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eccerr0r
Watchman
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 9824
Location: almost Mile High in the USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder how much maintenance time is spent by LFS users...
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Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon R7 250/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
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fedeliallalinea
Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 31269
Location: here
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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A little late, two gentoo system one desktop at work and a laptop at home.
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 654
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| eccerr0r wrote: | | I wonder how much maintenance time is spent by LFS users... |
Having done my own distro similar to LFS (in fact, I gave them some tips early on), for 6-8 years before I moved to Gentoo, a LOT of work... and this was still back in the days of freshmeat, where new releases of most packages were announced in a central place. It was burdensome doing one machine, but it was terrible trying to keep everything updated between 3 different machines on disparate CPUs/platforms.
There was a script I had found, called comfigure, which remembered all the ./configure commands you issued, which helped a ton. That was about the only automation I had.
All of that said, I learned a LOT and am thankful for the time I spent doing it.
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Ryzen 3700X, Asus Prime X570-Pro, 64 GB DDR4 3200, GeForce GTX 1660 Super
openrc-0.17, ~vanilla-sources, ~nvidia-drivers, ~gcc |
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Ionen
Developer
Joined: 06 Dec 2018
Posts: 2853
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| eccerr0r wrote: | | I wonder how much maintenance time is spent by LFS users... |
Back when I used LFS in 2001 or so, maintenance involved upgrading nothing while writing my own package manager that never got finished, then starting to use debian. |
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eccerr0r
Watchman
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 9824
Location: almost Mile High in the USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Ionen wrote: | | Back when I used LFS in 2001 or so, maintenance involved upgrading nothing while writing my own package manager that never got finished, then starting to use debian. |
That's what I figured, LOL.
Sigh. Software is never "done" and those that seem to be "done" (like vixie-cron) are now considered un-done...
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Tom_
Guru
Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 448
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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@pjp, thank you for sharing your use case 
For Oracle DB, X11 forwarding can help. At least for dbca. It should also work for the installer.
| eccerr0r wrote: | | I wonder how much maintenance time is spent by LFS users... |
Are there still people using LFS as their daily driver in 2021?  It must be quite insane to manage. |
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eccerr0r
Watchman
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 9824
Location: almost Mile High in the USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom_ wrote: | | Are there still people using LFS as their daily driver in 2021? :lol: It must be quite insane to manage. |
Probably the same effort as last year, decade ago, two decades ago :) Yeah for putting an OS together, it might be neat, but after that, it's like rebuilding your computer over and over again...
Then again people could consider Gentoo equally untenable maintenance for update management ... but at least with Gentoo you get some assist in maintenance and still get the feel of LFS and know for an OSS OS you're supposed to build from source...
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| eccerr0r wrote: | | Tom_ wrote: | | Are there still people using LFS as their daily driver in 2021? It must be quite insane to manage. |
Probably the same effort as last year, decade ago, two decades ago Yeah for putting an OS together, it might be neat, but after that, it's like rebuilding your computer over and over again...
Then again people could consider Gentoo equally untenable maintenance for update management ... but at least with Gentoo you get some assist in maintenance and still get the feel of LFS and know for an OSS OS you're supposed to build from source... |
Getting quite tired of the weekly blockers and python changes. Maybe the never updaters are right.
OTOH, I have found LFS a good reference for writing ebuilds in that they specify the dependencies and specify the commands. Usually easy to translate into an ebuild. |
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eccerr0r
Watchman
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 9824
Location: almost Mile High in the USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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I think this python 2.7 removal has caused most of the trouble I've been seeing lately. If we had started or had a fresh Gentoo without dependency on python 2.7 or any specific version of python, it probably wouldn't be so bad.
Earlier I was using an out-of-portage version of net-wireless/nanovna-saver that depended on a specific version of python (I HATE PYTHON) that wasn't default in Gentoo. After putting the USE flags to build that python and install the dependencies (stupid PYC/PYO files!!!) it worked...then when it came time to clean up after a new version showed up in portage... I get python conflicts :(
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Intel Core i7 2700K/Radeon R7 250/24GB DDR3/256GB SSD
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20485
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom_ wrote: | @pjp, thank you for sharing your use case ;)
For Oracle DB, X11 forwarding can help. At least for dbca. It should also work for the installer. :wink: |
You're welcome.
No one was using X on the console, so they had to be doing it remotely somehow. I'm guessing the default install included X.
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blakedude
n00b
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 45
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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I maintain three machines - my home desktop , work desktop, and personal laptop. I update every Friday.
I used to have a setup where my home desktop was the master, and I sync'ed portage to the other computers from that machine, but that setup has got a lot more complicated so I just sync them all individually now. |
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