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deadaim
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Joined: 27 Oct 2003
Posts: 467
Location: Florida
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 Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:21 am Post subject: What would iTunes have to do... |
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What would iTunes have to do to let Linux users listen to .m4p files?
It's really annoying when your brother is downloading all these great songsfrom iTunes on his Windows computer and you're stuck without them! |
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nonotme
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Joined: 29 Sep 2003
Posts: 356
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:18 am Post subject: |
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i've heard of people burning them to disc and then ripping them to .mp3's, but i'm sure that's infringing something or other. locking yourself into a proprietary format isn't my idea of a good time, but that DRM for you
cheers |
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David Holmes
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Joined: 03 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:46 am Post subject: |
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As I understand it:
The only way it could be done legally would be if Apple released some manner of Linux support. To attempt to decode a .m4p file in ANY way without using Apple software would be a circumvention of copy protection, and thus illegal under the DMCA (in USA at least). This makes the discussion of how to do it academic for now.
Apple could in theory release some kind of software for Linux, but they won't.
Note that if you COULD decrypt the file, Rhythmbox can already play it, as well as others I'm sure.
| Quote: | | The truth is, it's really hard to talk to people about not stealing music when there's no legal alternative. The advent of a legal alternative is only six months old. |
| Quote: | | We're never going to top the illegal downloading services, but our message is: Let's compete and win. |
http://www.rollingstone.com/features/featuregen.asp?pid=2529
I don't wan't to sound like I'm advocating something illegal, but to me, that's my que to break out gtk-gnutella. I'd LOVE to be able to download music legally, but hey, there is no legal alternative for me.
Last edited by David Holmes on Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:05 am; edited 3 times in total |
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deadaim
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Joined: 27 Oct 2003
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Location: Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| David Holmes wrote: | As I understand it:
The only way it could be done legally would be if Apple released some manner of Linux support. To attempt to decode a .m4p file in ANY way without using Apple software would be a circumvention of copy protection, and thus illegal under the DMCA (in USA at least). This makes the discussion of how to do it academic for now.
Apple could in theory release some kind of software for Linux, but they won't.
Note that if you COULD decrypt the file, Rhythmbox can already play it, as well as others I'm sure. |
Alright, so If I was to start a petition, the cause would be:
To get Apple to realease a manner of Linux support for iTunes.
Correct? |
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David Holmes
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Joined: 03 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:12 am Post subject: |
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You'd be wasting your time. They won't do it.
The demand for a Linux iTunes is virtually zero. Between the fact that it would be closed-source and the DRM terms which most Linux users would never tolerate, hardly anybody would use it.
Really, I don't think there'll be a serious legal music solution for Linux until the record companies give up on DRM. Who knows if/when that'll happen. |
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deadaim
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Location: Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Alright...
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David Holmes
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Joined: 03 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| Now what we really need is a HIG-ified Gnutella client embedded in Rhythmbox, with integrated Musicbrainz support, hacked up to look like iTunes Music Store. That would be good stuff =D |
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S
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Joined: 26 Oct 2003
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:08 am Post subject: |
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[offtopic]
i love the iTunes app....rhythmbox doesn't compare the least bit. in fact i think that's true of all mac apps. too bad their hardware is so expensive, i might have even owned one by now then.
[/offtopic]
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Sequentious
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Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 290
Location: London Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| David Holmes wrote: | | Now what we really need is a HIG-ified Gnutella client embedded in Rhythmbox, with integrated Musicbrainz support, hacked up to look like iTunes Music Store. That would be good stuff =D |
I much prefer rhythmbox to itunes (at least the windows version of itunes i installed (only because there is nothing like rhythmbox for windows (which is kind of funny that i installed the original client because there was no 'clone' around))).
Leaving out the "hacked up to look like iTunes music store" part, i'd gladly throw $20 toward a bounty for that one, but you'd have to get audio cd support into rhythmbox as well (thats the only itunes feature i like. I dont need to rip a cd to listen to it)*
(*i know about gnome-cd)
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river
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Joined: 05 Dec 2003
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Location: Cape Town
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:28 am Post subject: High horse |
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| David Holmes wrote: | You'd be wasting your time. They won't do it.
The demand for a Linux iTunes is virtually zero. Between the fact that it would be closed-source and the DRM terms which most Linux users would never tolerate, hardly anybody would use it.
Really, I don't think there'll be a serious legal music solution for Linux until the record companies give up on DRM. Who knows if/when that'll happen. |
I'm not so sure about linux users not using software because it's source is closed. For instance, I'm using nvidia drivers for my graphics card, and that's a fairly closed source thing. I'm also sure that most of everyone out there with an nvidia chipset also uses nvidia's closed source drivers.
Ditto with conexant chipset modems: www.linuxant.com. Older versions of their linux drivers (closed source) are available in portage (hcfpcimodem, and others). I'm sure there are other examples, although I can't think of any non-hardware related ones.
*shrug*
I, for one, would gladly use itunes and their music store if it were released for linux in binary format only. |
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zhenlin
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:58 am Post subject: |
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To de-protect DRMed AAC files...
* Burn them to CD OR
* Record the raw datastream coming out of the decoder
Apple places the trust in the consumer... Apple trusts the consumer to not use these conveniences to infringe on copyrights.
How nice... compared to Microsoft, RIAA and Treacherous Computing. |
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LJ
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Joined: 27 Dec 2002
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:17 am Post subject: There is an easier way... |
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Under Fair Use You Are Allowed To Make A DRM-Free Copy Of Those Files
This is not illegal. The first thing you have to understand about the DMCA is that actually circumventing the protection for personal use itself is not illegal but distributing the tools for circumventing them is! You're allowed to make a copy of any digital IP you purchased by fair use.
The reason file traders are getting hit is because they're sharing those files with random people.
The name of the program is QTFairUse and it's available here:
http://yact.net/bkp/files/QTFairUse.tar.gz
I have a copy of that file and if that host goes down I'll start up a bittorrent or host it on a big university connection. |
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David Holmes
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Joined: 03 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This is not illegal. The first thing you have to understand about the DMCA is that actually circumventing the protection for personal use itself is not illegal but distributing the tools for circumventing them is! You're allowed to make a copy of any digital IP you purchased by fair use. |
It's all the same. If you made a Linux player that could circumvent the DRM and play the songs as easily as iTunes, you'd be in lawsuit city.
The only reason QTFairUse hasn't gone the way of DeCSS is that it doesn't really do what iTunes does. If you could make a real music player that "just played" .m4p files, it'd be gone faster than you could blink. And being on BitTorrent doesn't cut it; if it can't be packaged with distributions and desktop environments, it's not good enough for me. |
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David Holmes
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I'm not so sure about linux users not using software because it's source is closed. For instance, I'm using nvidia drivers for my graphics card, and that's a fairly closed source thing. I'm also sure that most of everyone out there with an nvidia chipset also uses nvidia's closed source drivers.
...
I, for one, would gladly use itunes and their music store if it were released for linux in binary format only. |
The DRM is a bigger deal than the closed source. I'd use the closed-source iTunes if I could just download a song and play it in any player.
Also, the closed-source become a problem when combined with the lack of .ogg and .flac support. I wouldn't use iTunes 'cause it can't play much of my music, and I'm not willing to use two music players. |
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river
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Dec 2003
Posts: 122
Location: Cape Town
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| David Holmes wrote: |
The DRM is a bigger deal than the closed source. I'd use the closed-source iTunes if I could just download a song and play it in any player.
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Yeah, I agree with you about DRM being the bigger hurdle. And being tied to iTunes (unless you burn the tracks to CD) is unfortunate.
| David Holmes wrote: |
The demand for a Linux iTunes is virtually zero. Between the fact that it would be closed-source and the DRM terms which most Linux users would never tolerate, hardly anybody would use it.
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| David Holmes wrote: |
Also, the closed-source become a problem when combined with the lack of .ogg and .flac support. I wouldn't use iTunes 'cause it can't play much of my music, and I'm not willing to use two music players. |
I think you're saying this (correct me if I'm off base):
Linux users don't want to use iTunes because:
- Of the restrictions imposed by the DRM (including tieing you in to the iTunes player).
- iTunes is not really a feature complete product (for example, no ogg support), and being a closed project isn't helping it become feature complete.
Anyway, I agree with you on that. I don't agree that linux users would stay away from it because, in part, it is closed source (which was how I interpreted your first post).
I also think that linux users with iPods would still want to use iTunes, even with a dodgy feature set and DRM restrictions. iTunes is there to support the iPod, and the music store appears to be the carrot driving iPod sales. The iPod also, as far as I'm aware, doesn't support ogg. I assume that iTunes itself will only support ogg once the iPod does (another argument in favour of iTunes being open). |
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LJ
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Joined: 27 Dec 2002
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:17 am Post subject: |
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The problems with iTunes run deeper than that. While the DRM is less retrictive than other products available, it is still restrictive. Many people who use iTunes don't understand DRM or ever really think about it. Why should we allow the RIAA to restrict the products we own? Shouldn't what we do with those products be our decision?
Even if you argue that it shouldn't be possible to steal music, in a perfect world, which could be a defensible argument, why should users that would never consider doing anything illegal with their music have to deal with cripled product?
The problem is only compounded because the RIAA is a cartel. |
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Promit
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:52 am Post subject: |
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I'd thin iTunes would not be that big a deal to port.
I don't understand a lot of join Windows/Mac apps. If you gotten over endians and all the other really rather major differences between Windows and Mac, it should be trivial to write a Linux version, at least for PPC and x86.
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zhenlin
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 7:47 am Post subject: |
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They'd have to port Quicktime to Linux... Along with portions of Carbon, Quartz and other things. (Yay!)
Then it'd be trivial to port iTunes.
But... It will probably be a horrible mass of code not entirely unlike RealOne for Linux. |
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David Holmes
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:07 am Post subject: |
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Not to mention iTunes for Windows does all sorts of weird stuff, like installing its own drivers for CD burning.
iTunes seems to use its own GUI code for a lot of stuff. It doesn't just use the native widgets in Windows or even in MacOS X for that matter. It was probably a pretty huge task porting it to Windows, and I think porting it to Linux/X11 would be at least as hard.
That combined with the small market share and the flaws discussed above, and the fact that Apple has never created ANY Linux desktop software aside from their contributions to KHTML... the chances of Apple doing a Linux port are virtually zero. |
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skwelch
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mroch
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