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Chiitoo
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Joined: 28 Feb 2010
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Location: Here and Away Again
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 Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| sitquietly wrote: |
* Must be Intel cpu because heat.
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Is heat really a problem with a Ryzen for example?
I've only had a Ryzen 7 1700 though (three of them actually due to the "version 1 issues"), and I don't believe I've been able to get it to warm up much at all (certainly less heat than what the Phenom II on the side can put out). That said, I haven't really been monitoring it lately due to some "version incompatibilities" involving the 'sys-apps/lm-sensors' package... but at least the fan stays quiet.
(Edit: I imagine a Threadripper might be very different in this regard. I've never really looked into it because I don't think I will ever afford one.)
(Personally, I'd definitely not go for Intel due to their pricing and other tactics even if they'd perform better (the release of Ryzen certainly made this choice a lot easier for me), and while I do recommend Ryzen to everyone, I'd still encourage people to research their choices and pick the thing that seems more worth it for them. I would not want to shove my choices on others.)
| pjp wrote: | | My phone has both, though I don't use the audio jack (ironically, I partially purchased it because I thought I was going to use it for music... never happened). |
Heh. I still use a Nokia 5140i from 2005 (original battery still), and one of the main reasons I bought it was the mp3 ringtones... which was cool and all, but I did not notice it only had room for about 3 MiB, so I could only fit around 3 extra compressed tracks in there.
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Last edited by Chiitoo on Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:42 am Post subject: |
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sitquietly,
We reached the maximum power density for silicon a long time age. Its almost a physical constant.
When its exceeded, the life of the device is noticeably affected. There are several technologies for pushing the limit but all are expensive and not used in PCs.
What this boils down to is that power is proportional do die area.
The only way to get more work out of the same size die is to use smaller transistors. AMD, rather TSCM, have the lead there right now.
My Ryzen 5950 seems to want to run around 80C flat out. AMD says that's OK as the limit is 90C.
That will be driven by the thermal resistance of the package, rather than the heatsink I have on top. Although, fitting the second fan to the heatsink improved things by 10C.
When you say 'heat' do you mean power input == running costs == thermal energy output, or do you mean operating temperature?
Both are referred to as 'heat' in my dialect of English.
TDP is a marketing term, rather like 'music power'. Neither tell you anything useful about power.
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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sitquietly
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Joined: 23 Oct 2010
Posts: 151
Location: On the Wolf River, Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: |
The only way to get more work out of the same size die is to use smaller transistors. AMD, rather TSCM, have the lead there right now....
TDP is a marketing term |
I'm just learning that. But those are details I would need to learn if I were selecting a new cpu / mainboard. My point is that I would consider aiming to take advantage of the smaller transisters, apparently TSCM makes transisters impossibly small, to gain reduced heat at constant performance per core.
As I said "I may be wrong" but my sense is that build time of a large set of packages using multiple parallel builds is so dependent on everything -- memory speed, cpu speeds, disk speed -- that a good result may be achieved best by starting with assumption that all I want from the cpu is "small transisters, low thermal design". Take advantage of the smaller transisters to run at lower watts because very high watts stress the system toward failure and the room the system sits in toward intolerable heat and noise.
I know that Intel rates cpu tdp as a "meaningless" number as there are assumptions about how many seconds at peak power and how many seconds at "design" power are set by the chip design or motherboard bios settings -- it's all about system design. So yes it would be important to also look closely at the cpu and mainboard specs to find a set that is actually designed for conservative control of the power draw. Today I would probably end up with an Intel 10nm mobile cpu rated for 45 watts "tdp". I expect it is easy to achieve a system with maximum cpu temps of 60 deg C using simple cooling approach.
Mostly ignore synthetic benchmarks and ignore the recommendations of guys whose basements are hot and loud -- a useful system is designed to run a heavy load well without much heat.
I don't know the answer but I would follow the path of least heat. |
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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sitquietly,
I think you mean power when you say 'heat', not temperature. Stay away from Intel/AMD then, and get an arm64 system. :)
Something I learned from using a 96 core Cavium Thunder system that building a single application almost never uses more than 30 cores, even with MAKEOPTS="-j100"
That's 30 threads. So you need to build at least three things concurrently. Except that 128G RAM is not enough when the three things are chromium firefox and libreofficie. :)
The lesson here is that there is a law of diminishing returns to more cores/treads.
The build time bottleneck is CPU speed. The much slower DDR4 RAM speed is mostly hidden by the CPU cache.
I say mostly as a cache miss means waiting for RAM.
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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ibrown39
n00b
Joined: 11 Jan 2022
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:15 pm Post subject: Update |
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@all
Hey guys sorry for not responding. I’m looking at the updates now! |
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ibrown39
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Joined: 11 Jan 2022
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! This definitely looks good and definitely can hold off on a video card.
| NeddySeagoon wrote: | ibrown39,
Here's what I have under my desk right now and my rationale.
AMD Ryzen 5950x My Phennom II lasted me 12 years. If this system lasts 12 years, I'll be 80, so it may well outlast me.
As I'm a pensioner, with a part time job right now, money for updates will be scarce one the job stops, so I don't have any upgrades in mind.
My usual advice is look in a PC mag that is about a year old and buy what it says is top of the range. Then plan for upgrades.
The 5950x is PCIe4 so it needs a PCIe4 chipset to get the best out of it. That means an X570 motherboard.
ASUS AMD Ryzen X570 ROG Crosshair VIII Dark Hero becase I wanted a fanless motherboard and most X570 motherboards have fans.
It also has WiFi and Bluetooth, which I will never use. Its all I could get that met the X570 fanless requirement.
Also I did not want a motherboard where the M.2 slots and SATA ports shared PCIe lanes, so you had to choose which you were going to install.
Corsair Vengeance LPX Black 64GB 3200MHz DDR4 Two two packs for 128G as that was a lot lower cost than one 4 pack.
The CPU addresses them in pairs. 64G would be enough to get started, just, but I don't plan any upgrades, once I retire again 
I've left the RAM at its JEDEC speed and voltage. XMP is another name for overclocking. Maybe I'll turn on the XMP by way of an upgrade but I'm not keen on the over volting of the CPU and RAM that goes with it. It would be a very expensive mistake if it destroyed the CPU/RAM/Motherboard.
850W Corsair RM Series RM850 Full Modular, 80PLUS Gold That's almost twice the power output I need, but don't skimp the PSU.
It should have a long low stress life. PC PSUs are commodity parts, you get what you pay for. Ignore the ones in the lowest and highest 25% of the price range and pick something in the middle. The PSU derating is important. You tend to add bids over the years, which requires more power. The PSU dynamic regulation, which is very difficult to measure, gets worse as components age. Think the CPU going from almost zero to 150W in well less than a nanosecond and keeping the voltage correct within a few millivolts.
1TB Samsung 980 PRO, M.2 (2280), PCIe 4.0 (x4) NVMe SSD The system is PCIe4 everywhere. 1TB is plenty for the bits that matter. There was no point in fitting a PCIe3 NVMe module. That would be like keeping a Ferrari just to drive to the corner shop. There are two M.2 slots, so expansion is possible. There was not a lot of choice in PCIe 4 NVMes and Samsung are well known.
Toshiba 8TB N300 x4 In mdadm RAID5 with LVM on top. They hold /home, /var/cache/distfiles, /var/cache/binpkgs and my media collection with space left over.
I swithered over 4TB or 8TB drives, then thought about the no future expansion plan. I have all my distfiles back to 2006 with a smattering of older ones too. That's about 290GB now.
Its only going to grow.
Corsair Obsidian 750D Airflow Edition Full Tower PC Case Its getting difficult to find cases with three or four 5 1/4" bays and I wanted at least 3.
I have two multi layer Bluray drives moved from my old system. For burning backups and ripping things. I also wanted USB-C on the front. USB-A will disappear soon, as its started to on laptops already.
Akasa InterConnect EX card reader for 5.25" Bay That provides the USB-C port on the front as well as an assortment of card readers, so I can write SD-Cards for the Raspberry That's all three bays on the case full.
Noctua NH-D15 chromax.black CPU Cooler I've never been one for water cooling. It's noisy but not objectionable when the CPU is going flat out. The down side or air cooling is the the fan/heatsink cover the M.2 slot closest two the CPU but that's the one I populated.
Thermal Paste Arctic MX-4 (2022) My thermal paste was over 20 years old, so time for some new stuff.
No video card yet. I want a Radeon 5xxx once they are back in the shops at a sensible price. |
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ibrown39
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Joined: 11 Jan 2022
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:21 am Post subject: |
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@NeddySeagoon and @all
The time for me to get the build is approaching and I’m still a bit, and confused, about which CPU + Memory would be best. I asked here too (https://reddit.com/r/buildapcforme/comments/s9kx33/gentoo_linux_enthusiast_build/)
Just to get some consensus:
From what I understand people have suggested AMD over Intel in this case because despite some better performance i9-12900KF over the Ryzen 5950x (most said for my budget not to consider a threadripper), that the i9’s thermals could be a bottlenecks. That, and the Ryzen offers better pricing and single thread performance.
As for diminishing returns, most seem to emphasize the cases where this can happen and how, but still mostly suggest doing 120Gb+ of memory over 64gb.
If so, that would mean I should go for a Ryzen (not threadripper) + basic Radeon (good drivers and AMD compatibility over Intel) + 120gb+ of memeory/ram … right? |
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figueroa
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 3007
Location: Edge of marsh USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:16 am Post subject: |
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Re: RAM. What are you going to do with all that RAM? What will you be doing in 128 GB RAM that doesn't give you identical results with 64 GB?
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Andy Figueroa
hp pavilion hpe h8-1260t/2AB5; spinning rust x3
i7-2600 @ 3.40GHz; 16 gb; Radeon HD 7570
amd64/23.0/split-usr/desktop (stable), OpenRC, -systemd -pulseaudio -uefi |
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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figueroa,
The 32 threads of a 5950 will want 64G of RAM to build a large C++ package.
Yes, you would be unlucky to need it all at the same time, building a single package.
Then, if you want to keep build products in RAM too. you need more RAM still.
DDR4 maxes out at 32G per stick and motherboards at four DIM slots.
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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nikolis
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Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 200
Location: Athens
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: |
My Ryzen 5950 seems to want to run around 80C flat out. AMD says that's OK as the limit is 90C. |
You can activate curve optimizer negative offsets all cores, try out -25, -30 on your 5950x, you will see a drop in temperature. |
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