upgrading hardware: very basic questions

juniper · l33t Joined: 22 Oct 2004 Posts: 944 Location: we the north

I am thinking of upgrading the hardware in my computer. I want to do it for cheap. The thing is I have no idea about hardware. I want to upgrade the memory, storage and graphics card.

Current memory info:

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 7:20 pm Post subject:

juniper,

You have 1 8G stick of RAM. The other slot is empty.
The part you have at the moment is

juniper · l33t Joined: 22 Oct 2004 Posts: 944 Location: we the north

Thanks for the quick response NeddySeagoon.

The system info

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 7:51 pm Post subject:

juniper,

That looks OK. Chips on both sides.
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NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 8:31 pm Post subject:

juniper,

That's a Lenvo ThinkCentre M73, Type 10B4. The service manual is at https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/thinkcentre_pdf/m73_hmm.pdf.
It covers lots of models. Only the 10B4 sections apply to you.
From page 77, you have both USB 2 and 3 and a real PCIe x16 Graphics slot.

Page 82 says that you only have one 3.5" HDD slot but you may be able to fit a 2.5inch SSD under the CDROM
However, there are only two SATA connectors, probably both used.
What about an external USB 3 HDD?

The strip down instructions for four 10B4 start on page 135.
PCIe cards appear the be length constrained too.

The specs are at https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/gb/en/products/desktops-and-all-in-ones/thinkcentre-m-series-desktops/thinkcentre-m73/10b4/parts/pd029601-detailed-specifications-for-thinkcentre-m73-small-form-factor
So its low profile PCIe cards only.
PCIe cards appear the be length constrained too.

juniper · l33t Joined: 22 Oct 2004 Posts: 944 Location: we the north

here is the output of lspci

juniper · l33t Joined: 22 Oct 2004 Posts: 944 Location: we the north

;when you say "at the bottom of the page are a list of graphics cards" what do you mean? Those are the only compatible graphics cards?

My monitors can take hdmi or dp or vga I think.

for example, is this compatible?

how about this card?

or this?

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:00 pm Post subject:

juniper,

Your graphics memory shares with your main RAM.
Xorg.0.log may show how much main memory in allocated to the GPU.
You may be able to set it in your BIOS too.

The amount of RAM you need on a graphics card depends on what you want to to.
Its Horiz pixels times Vertical pixels * 4 bytes for one framebuffer. You will want two frame buffers per display so double that. That's for the screen that you will see.
Graphics cards usually keep an 'off screen' cache of shapes that they draw often, so that they can be copied to a new on screen location.
Think the title bar of windows and the like. This is kept off screen in the graphics card.
Its only when you get to 3D texture caching that graphics card memory requirements get enormous.

For 1920x1080 and 32 bits per pixel., The pixel buffer is 8,294,400 byes or just under 8MiB.
That's 16MiB for both buffers. Any more RAM for 2D is only used for cache. That's a worked example for a single 1920x1080 display.
Double it for two displays or plug your own resolution numbers in.

That 8MiB from main memory is moved to the display at 60Hz to put the image on the display that's 480 MiB/sec of memory bandwidth that is not available to the CPU.
The image also has to be drawn. Its usually updated, not totally destroyed and recreated, so that's another chunk of memory bandwidth lost to the CPU.
With a separate graphics card, the CPU gets most of that memory bandwidth back.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:13 pm Post subject:

juniper,

Those graphics cards are the ones that Lenvo would have offered as options.
That suggests that they are known to fit and work.
Others will too, provided that they are low profile, fit in the available length and keep the maximum power under 40w.

Check your displays and choose a graphics card to suit. VGA should be avoided if possible as the picture quality is degraded by the analogue transmission.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

juniper · l33t Joined: 22 Oct 2004 Posts: 944 Location: we the north

Hi Neddy, thanks again for your informative post.

Ok. So I should get a low profile card with under 40w of power consumption.

My purposes: I use the computer for work, so I don't need a great graphics card. I got a new "gaming monitor" because it had good specs and it was cheap. I don't actually use it for gaming. However, my kid likes to play games, so I thought if it was cheap I would update the card. I think my current card can't keep up with the monitor's large display (a few visual slowness here and there. I think it is the computer, not the monitor).

Anyway I thought if cheap i'll upgrade.

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 8:49 pm Post subject:

juniper,

You don't have a separate graphics card yet. Its internal to the CPU.

What is the native resolution of your new display?
The make and model will do, I can find it from that.
There is a possibility that you may not get a graphics card that is suitable for the PC that can drive your new monitor at its native resolution, so lets check that before you get a graphics card that is not suitable.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

juniper · l33t Joined: 22 Oct 2004 Posts: 944 Location: we the north

Why would that be? Is that a linux issue? Or is my hardware too old?

the monitor is below. it says resolutionis 2560x1440 on the box.

asus vg27aq

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:44 pm Post subject:

juniper,

Some video cards were ordinary HDMI only. That imposes a 1920x1200 limit.
Dual Link DVI, otherwise DVI-D, could do 2560x1440. Just. You don't have that on your display though.

You have DisplayPort 1.2 and HDMI(v2.0), so need a video card with a matching output.

Getting back to your PC specs, any of the those Discrete Graphics Cards with a Display part output will do.
The bottom card, the R5 235 won't do at all.
The first one will only drive your display at 24Hz, that will look really horrible.

VGA and DVI are of no interest as they will not connect to the display.

You need a card with a low profile bracket too. Often the card is low profile but the bracket is not.
If you go away from that list, check the power requirement and the length of the card.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

juniper · l33t Joined: 22 Oct 2004 Posts: 944 Location: we the north

Neddy,

There are some cards below. I am most intrigued by card 3, but I think it is has incompatible memory. The memory the actual ram is ddr3. Does the memory on the video card have to match?

card 1

card 2

card 3

card 4

card 5

card 6

card 7

I think the last one is one of the graphics cards that lenovo recommends on the page you posted. $15. cheap as chips.

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:51 pm Post subject:

juniper,

All of those cards will fit mechanically, I think. All except the NVidia Low Profile NVS 510 have full size Display Port connectors.
This card has mini-Display Port outputs. That's OK. Its electrically compatible with full size Display Port, just smaller.
You need to take that into account buying a video cable.

At least one of the cards has a max power of 50w, which is what the PCIe connector is rated.
The recommended power limit for your PC video card is 40w.
However that 50w is a max. Also, there will be some power budget for the other PCIe slots, which are not used.
In short, 50w will probably be OK.

I have not checked the maximum resolution that any of the cards can provide. 2560x1600 is fairly common but do check before you buy.

The type of RAM on the Video Card is not related to the RAM in the PC as the two cannot directly address the others RAM.
All the data goes over the PCIe bus, which is common to both.

Due to the need for speed, its fairly normal for Graphics Cards to be one or two RAM generations ahead of the PC.
Newer RAM generations are faster than older ones but not by as much as headline speeds suggest.

I would be tempted to pick a card without a DVD-I connector. DVD-I is obsolete and really only be converted to HDMI at 1920x1600 max.
A card with two Display Port connectors (any size), offers the possibility to drive a second display.

As a personal preference, I would avoid nVidia. They keep dropping their nvidia-drivers support in Linux for perfectly good cards. The nouveau driver works but its not as fast.
I'm not saying AMD were any better, but nVidia bit me twice. So they are not getting another opportunity.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

juniper · l33t Joined: 22 Oct 2004 Posts: 944 Location: we the north

I've got no desire to battle with drivers. I will stay away from nvidia.

I will look for better cards, but otherwise I will go with card 7 (the one that is recommended by lenovo).

But basically I need to look for a card with

1) low profile
2) < 40W power consumption (though you say I have a little wiggle room. One of the cards above was 65W. that might be too much).
3) enough resolution
4) DP or HDMI connectors.

Got it! Thanks for all your help!

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:44 pm Post subject:

juniper,

Card 1 NVIDIA QUADRO K620 2GB Display Port 3840x2160 60Hz.
Card 2 NVIDIA Quadro K420 2GB Display Port 3840x2160 60Hz.
Card 3 Radeon R5 43 GDDR5 (its a 430)
Card 4 Radeon R7 450 4GB GDDR5. Its a 65w card so has a power connector. Not for you. At least, at 65w it should have a power connector.
Card 5 NVidia Low Profile NVS 510 Max Resolution DIsplay Port 380x2160 at 60Hz
Card 6 Radeon R7 450 Max Resolution 1920 x 1080 at 60 Hz That looks very low but information is hard to find as it was an OEM part.
Card 7 AMD Radeon HD 7450. Max Resolution Details DVI: 2560 x 1600 / DisplayPort: 2560 x 1600 / VGA: 2048 x 1536
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

juniper · l33t Joined: 22 Oct 2004 Posts: 944 Location: we the north

So I got a card that wasn't great (you commented on that thread). So I was thinking of getting another (it was cheap $15).

This one is a new chipset, 4G, right power consumption 40w, but I can't tell if low profile.

here is the card

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:24 am Post subject:

juniper,

Ouch!

That card is low profile but the PCI bracket is not.
The VGA connector above the card is detachable

Is the card provided with a low profile bracket so that you can fit it properly but without the VGA connector?
I can't find any information on line about that.

If you take the bracket off, the card will fit but will not be retained as its supposed to be.
Note the "supposed to be". Over to you to be inventive.
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Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

pjp · Administrator Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20097

This page implies you could use separate low-profile brackets (I don't know if it makes any claim that they actually fit, but I'd presume it is somewhat standard-ish):

(see the "frequently bought together" section.
https://www.amazon.com/AMD-RX550-Graphics-6000MHz-Profile/dp/B09BMQ7YBX

The referenced brackets:
https://www.amazon.com/Adecco-LLC-Profile-Bracket-Graphics/dp/B01EW98Z7Y/
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Quis separabit? Quo animo?

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 5:49 pm Post subject:

pjp,

The problem with standards are that there are so many to choose from :)

That's a good idea. Take a low profile single slot card with a full height bracket and turn it into a two slot low profile cad.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

pjp · Administrator Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20097

That's why I added "-ish" :)

In this case though, the card is half-height with a full height bracket, or did I misunderstand?
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Quis separabit? Quo animo?

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:03 pm Post subject:

pjp,

Its a low profile card with a full height bracket.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

pjp · Administrator Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20097

Ok, that's what I thought. So maybe the replacement brackets could be used instead (without the VGA port as you mentioned).
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juniper · l33t Joined: 22 Oct 2004 Posts: 944 Location: we the north

Hmmmm. The other question: is that a DVI port? weird. It does not look like the one I am used to.

Ah yeah. That is dvi. Not displayport.

how about this one?

This is 50W. apparently I only have 40w, but neddy thinks it should be fine.