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mv's gtk2 needlessly strict

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mv
Watchman

Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6764

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2023 7:42 pm Post subject:

stefan11111 wrote:

Most apps work on my minimalist setup. Those that don't work are proprietary games I have no way to debug.

I already mentioned some which won't work which are certainly not games. And also for games, why limit yourself. Just to be limited? Indeed, you say it:

Quote:

All security goes out the window of you use backdoored proprietary software that steals your data.
[...]
I'll live with this if this is what it takes to not sell my soul to redhat.

So it is about irrational prejudices instead of rational arguments. It makes no sense to discuss about this.
However, I repeat that running inherently insecure X11 is among the worst one can do, security-wise.

Quote:

So no way to not use a compositor or a very minimal one like xcompmgr

It seems that you intentionally ignored my argument: Any wm is not "very minimal", as the full-blow X-server is part of it. BTW, a composition manager has despite the similarity of its name nothing to do with a compositor. A compositor may or may not provide some functionality of a composition manager.

Quote:

to get the best performance possible, say in games.

Due to its local nature, wayland is clearly superior to X, performance-wise. Whether a compositor or wm "eats" performance depends on its implementation and not on how many libraries it calls.

Quote:

At the other end, there is no way to use compiz.

Why should one? wayfire provides probably most what compiz does, though I usually switch off all that unnecessary eye-candy anyway.

Quote:

Yes just a few lines above you say that the compositor/WM/DE implements everything.

This is obviously exaggerated. Many parts which an X server implements are missing, in particular most of the network stuff. That's exactly the advantage. It takes a while to understand this, but if you look on the many external implementations of the X network stuff, it becomes obvious how problematic bundling such a poor protocol as X actually is.

Quote:

Overly separating tasks is oop.
Also, you have those things called portals on wayland.

I do not know what you are talking about. I am neither an expert in wayland nor X and just know some basic concepts. But as practically all X developers think that wayland gets rid of so many bad hacks from X, I see no reason to distrust them.

Quote:

udev and seatd. Hard pass. There is no USE="suid" for wayland.

Yes, another advantage: A minimalistic session manager (seatd) is used instead of risky root permissions. That this is impossible on X is another security-driven reason why I never want to return to X again.
Concerning udev, I do not care, because I consider it reasonable secure and I want it anyway for other reasons.

stefan11111
l33t
l33t

Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Posts: 922
Location: Romania

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:43 pm Post subject:

mv wrote:

stefan11111 wrote:

Most apps work on my minimalist setup. Those that don't work are proprietary games I have no way to debug.

I already mentioned some which won't work which are certainly not games. And also for games, why limit yourself. Just to be limited? Indeed, you say it:

If I really needed those apps I would bite the bullet and install dbus. Most of the games that don't work are even broken on arch, which lives and dies by Lennart's preaching.

mv wrote:

Quote:

All security goes out the window of you use backdoored proprietary software that steals your data.
[...]
I'll live with this if this is what it takes to not sell my soul to redhat.

What exactly is irrational?
It is well known that google steals its user's data. Also google chrome is proprietary.
Wayland is a redhat project.

mv wrote:

Quote:

So no way to not use a compositor or a very minimal one like xcompmgr

Is Xorg heavy enough to offset the gains from not having all of wayland's dependencies.
Also you can be free from redhat on Xorg.
From Wikipedia:

Wikipedia wrote:

A compositing manager, or compositor, is software that provides applications with an off-screen buffer for each window.

mv wrote:

Quote:

to get the best performance possible, say in games.

Due to its local nature, wayland is clearly superior to X, performance-wise. Whether a compositor or wm "eats" performance depends on its implementation and not on how many libraries it calls.

Hard to believe that just because xorg is a network protocol, wayland is faster than xorg with all the bloat wayland needs.

mv wrote:

Quote:

At the other end, there is no way to use compiz.

Why should one? wayfire provides probably most what compiz does, though I usually switch off all that unnecessary eye-candy anyway.

I would also switch everything off if I had to use compiz for some reason, but it's about having the choice. Cay you use sway with wayfire?

mv wrote:

Quote:

Yes just a few lines above you say that the compositor/WM/DE implements everything.

If Xorg didn't have all the network stuff it would be better, however I don't think wayland is any better with all it's dependencies.

mv wrote:

Quote:

Overly separating tasks is oop.
Also, you have those things called portals on wayland.

Is wayland less hacky than Xorg?

mv wrote:

Quote:

udev and seatd. Hard pass. There is no USE="suid" for wayland.

What permissions do udev and seatd? Any why should my WM/display server care about whether or not I manage my /dev with udev?

Also, as I pointed out in the thread I linked, xorg doesn't need suid privileges to work. It only needs access to a tty and to /dev/input/mice.
It has tty access of you log in to a tty. You only need to give it extra access to /dev/input/mice.

Code:

$ cat /etc/portage/env/x11-base/xorg-server
post_pkg_postinst() {
chown root:xorg /usr/bin/Xorg
chmod 2711 /usr/bin/Xorg
}

Code:

$ ls -lah /dev/input/mice
crw-rw---- 1 root xorg 13, 63 Apr 27 12:02 /dev/input/mice

Regarding security, what groups are you in?

Code:

$ groups stefan
audio video stefan

Also, not related to any point in particular, bloat has to be taken into account.
Right now I have 8 tabs open in librewolf, seed 14 torrents using qbittorrent, play music from my network storage using mpv, have 2 irc windows open, a file open in l3afpad and 7 other terminal windows open.
My 7-th gen intel cpu is at 1-2% and my ram is at 1.73GB/7.75GB, as reported by slstatus, 1.56GB as reported by htop.
_________________
My overlay: https://github.com/stefan11111/stefan_overlay
INSTALL_MASK="/etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib/modules-load.d *udev* /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d *tmpfiles* /var/lib/dbus /usr/bin/gdbus /lib/udev"

mv
Watchman

Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6764

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2023 4:26 am Post subject:

stefan11111 wrote:

What exactly is irrational? [...] Lennart's preaching [...] sell my soul to redhat [...] google steals [...] all the bloat wayland needs

Your formulations make rather clear that you are denying any facts which would require you to rethink your prejudices. It makes no sense to continue this discussion. Only one final point:

Quote:

Cay you use sway with wayfire?

This question makes no sense. It is like asking: "Can you use i3 with fvwm"? sway and wayfire are different compositors which use essentially only wlroots to do their job. Like i3 and fvwm are different window managers which use essentially only the X server to do their job. One picks the compositor or window manager of preference (may also be a completely different one). Using one "with" the other makes no sense.

Zucca
Moderator

Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3419
Location: Rasi, Finland

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2023 7:59 am Post subject:

stefan11111 wrote:

Is wayland useful without the X server? Just having a WM/DE with no apps or crippled apps doesn't seem that useful.

I've been running with no xwayland support before. Most of the GUI programs work fine. Your mileage way vary.

stefan11111 wrote:

From my understanding, there is no way to write a 4k lines of code WM for wayland, like with xorg.

Yes and no. There are libs to use with wayland compositor. Like in xorg side of things. The whole xorg-server can be thought as a running library of some sort. That said - I don't think there are any wayland compositors that include all the neccesary code (without wayland support libs) to act as a proper wm while keeping under 4k LOC.

stefan11111 wrote:

There is no way to run a WM with a different compositor or with none.

Afaik, so far, no-one had the need to code such feature (compositor separated from window manager).

stefan11111 wrote:

Wayland needs pipewire for screen capture, xorg doesn't.

No? Sure it can help in most situations.

stefan11111 wrote:

Wayland needs pam and dbus to work, xorg doesn't.

I think pam can be dropped. Not sure about dbus.
I use pam for my custom things, so I'm not gonna try to test dropping it. Dbus on the other hand isn't such a burden to me. Dropping it would cause more burden.

Did you get tinyx working?

I wonder if OpenBSD's Xenocara will run on Linux... I would assume (based on how security oriented OpenBSD folks are) that would be the secure way to run X while having the common features expected nowdays of an X server.
_________________
..: Zucca :..
Gentoo IRC channels reside on Libera.Chat.
--

Quote:

I am NaN! I am a man!

stefan11111
l33t
l33t

Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Posts: 922
Location: Romania

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2023 11:31 am Post subject:

Zucca wrote:

Did you get tinyx working?

No, but eve if I did I think I would have problems with gui apps like librewolf.

Zucca wrote:

I wonder if OpenBSD's Xenocara will run on Linux... I would assume (based on how security oriented OpenBSD folks are) that would be the secure way to run X while having the common features expected nowdays of an X server.

I found this thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/voidlinux/comments/dlyqt8/openbsds_xenocara_ported_to_linux/
I know it's reddit of all things, but I couldn't find other threads.
I tried to build it myself. It depends on BSD make and mtree.
BSD make built fine, but I couldn't fine the source code for mtree.
_________________
My overlay: https://github.com/stefan11111/stefan_overlay
INSTALL_MASK="/etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib/modules-load.d *udev* /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d *tmpfiles* /var/lib/dbus /usr/bin/gdbus /lib/udev"

stefan11111
l33t
l33t

Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Posts: 922
Location: Romania

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2023 11:57 am Post subject:

It seems that this thread has gone slightly off topic. I will write a condensed post about what still needs answering. How can I have patches in my /etc/portage/patches that only apply to gtk2 and others that only apply to gtk3? How to properly have version ranges in an ebuild? How to fix that git ebuild I tried to write? And one new point that I didn't mention until now: Does it make more sense to maintain a set of patches instead of a full ebuild? _________________ My overlay: https://github.com/stefan11111/stefan_overlay INSTALL_MASK="/etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib/modules-load.d udev /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d tmpfiles /var/lib/dbus /usr/bin/gdbus /lib/udev"

Hu
Administrator

Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 22002

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2023 12:44 pm Post subject:

stefan11111 wrote:

How can I have patches in my /etc/portage/patches that only apply to gtk2 and others that only apply to gtk3?

Name the directory so that it only applies to the gtk+ 2 version ebuilds, and not the gtk+ 3 version ebuilds.

colo-des
Tux's lil' helper

Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 97

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2023 6:09 pm Post subject:

Quote:

@stefan11111
How can I have patches in my /etc/portage/patches that only apply to gtk2 and others that only apply to gtk3?

https://www.cloudgardens.eu/blog/gentoo-add-own-patches-to-ebuild/
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-8328974.html#8328974

It seems that you have to add the exact slot or version to the folder name.

Code:

with slot:
# mkdir -pv /etc/portage/patches/x11-libs/gtk:2
# cp -v ~/tmp/path-to-apply.patch /etc/portage/patches/x11-libs/gtk:2

with exact version:
# mkdir -pv /etc/portage/patches/x11-libs/gtk-2.24.33-r2
# cp -v ~/tmp/path-to-apply.patch /etc/portage/patches/x11-libs/gtk-2.24.33-r2

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