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nagmat84 Apprentice
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Joined: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 255
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:07 am Post subject: Gentoo for the unexperienced user |
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I myself have been using Gentoo since more than two decades on all my systems. IMHO, it is own of the best distros.
Last week I was finally able to convince my (60+ yo) father to move away from Windows to Linux. Now, I am facing the problem to choose the right distro. Of course, I would prefer to install Gentoo, but I am concerned about how Gentoo handles world upgrades. While I am the "family admin" and I am there if something has to be changed (i.e. installation of a new laptop, installing new hardware, setting up a new mail account, etc.), I am not around on a regular basis to do trivial all-day maintenance tasks such as world upgrades. While I can setup Gentoo with an initial make.conf and setup USE flags appropriately, I won't be there on every occasion to fix upgrade problems due to changed USE flags and/or dependency conflicts.
As far as I understand, Gentoo does not support unattended background upgrades as most other distros do. The user always has to manually sync the repository and then explicitly run the upgrade procedure. Moreover, the upgrade procedure is not robust with respect to sudden shutdown or reboots.
While I could try to somehow automate "emerge --sync && emerge --deep --keep-going --update @world" via a cron job for root, there is nothing which would prevent my father from shutting down his PC in the middle of a running world upgrade. In particular, a half-way world upgrade would probably break the PC (just imagine the Qt libraries and some Plasma have already been compiled and merged, but the KDE libraries/apps are not yet upgraded).
How do you solve those problems for your elder family members which simply want to use their PC? Are there any tricks/tips or tools? Or is Gentoo simply not the right choice for that category of users? |
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54528 Location: 56N 3W
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:30 am Post subject: |
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nagmat84,
I have a mirror install on my destop that I chroot into and build binary packages
At update time, bin binaries and the repo are shared with the target system over NFS.
Both systems are on the same network so NFS not being secure is not a problem.
The method is Build In A Chroot
My target system wan taking about 10d to update itself.
You will see build and USE flag changes before they get to the remote system. _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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eeckwrk99 Apprentice
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Joined: 14 Mar 2021 Posts: 203 Location: Gentoo forums
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Gentoo for the unexperienced user |
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While I completely understand why you would want to choose Gentoo in this case (long time user, stability..), I wouldn't personally in your situation. The main issue in my opinion:
nagmat84 wrote: | I am not around on a regular basis to do trivial all-day maintenance tasks such as world upgrades |
You don't define "regular basis" but this doesn't sound good regardless. Not updating a machine that stays turned off on the shelf for let's say, two months, isn't a big deal. A machine that would be used maybe daily or at least frequently, however, that's a different story.
Another reason in favor of avoiding Gentoo in your situation: what if your father wants to install some programs on his own? Would you learn him the basics or Portage or is this also something you would have to take care of? Imagine he really needs to install a piece of software but compilation fails? Although this could be partially avoided using the Gentoo binary host, he could also face circular dependencies errors. Someone who never used Linux before would have trouble dealing with this kind of stuff.
nagmat84 wrote: | IWhile I could try to somehow automate "emerge --sync && emerge --deep --keep-going --update @world" via a cron job for root, there is nothing which would prevent my father from shutting down his PC in the middle of a running world upgrade. |
Indeed, that could be a disaster depending on the reboot/shutdown timing. Again, especially because of:
nagmat84 wrote: | I am not around on a regular basis |
I would just install a beginner friendly distro such as Linux Mint. |
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rfx Tux's lil' helper
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Joined: 19 Apr 2023 Posts: 132 Location: de-by
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Gentoo is great, we don't need to discuss it. But it is still not suitable for every user case.
My parents are over 70, so I thought about setting up gentoo as well (their old PC still ran very slowly on Windows 7). But I don't want to say when I visit them "now let's turn on your PC for 8 hours, there's a new Firefox + Thunderbird update" or some other big libraries.
So I use Debian with KDE Plasma on their PC, it's easy and it just works. If there are rare updates, the Plasma update service reports to the desktop. You just have to enter your root password, the rest runs automatically in the background and is done quickly because it is binary.
The PC does what it should, it just runs and is stable. My parents and I no longer have any work with it |
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logrusx Advocate
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Joined: 22 Feb 2018 Posts: 2149
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nagmat84 Apprentice
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | rfx wrote:
So I use Debian with KDE Plasma on their PC, it's easy and it just works. [...] You just have to enter your root password, the rest runs automatically in the background and is done quickly because it is binary. |
While I love this kind of upgrade procedure and what I would prefer to have, I hesitate to use anything Debian-based. I used to manage Debian and Debian-based derivatives on some servers and replaced everything with Gentoo, because I never got acquainted with the package system.
I am actively considering Arch Linux, because it also offers a rolling release system and does not deviate too much from upstream sources, but I have never used Arch Linux before and I fear that this might make things worse. (Mostly, because of my inexperience with Arch).
I know that for certain huge packages (e.g. libreoffice, firefox, etc.) Gentoo provides pre-built binaries. This mitigates the problem of long compilation runs for those packages, but does not solve the remaining aspects of the issue I raised.
Quote: | NeddySeagoon wrote:
I have a mirror install on my destop that I chroot into and build binary packages
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That sounds like a neat idea, especially as I already run my own private server with sufficient symmetric bandwidth, compute power and which is publicly reachable via a static IPv4/IPv6 address. (This could also be an option for my own, resource-lacking laptop.) Basically, your idea is to set up an own built server which provides tailed-made binaries. However, there are two aspects which are still unclear to me. Maybe, you could elaborate on those. Preferably, you could update your public how-to:
- Kernel upgrades: How do kernel upgrades work? Is that something which still has to be done manually on the client? This would be a no-go. Preferably, I would like to use the pre-built kernel sys-kernel/gentoo-kernel-bin, but I don't understand how all the pieces would interact with each other. Emerging sys-kernel/gentoo-kernel-bin on the built server will probably fail, because everything runs in a chrooted environment. Hence, the indirect path Gentoo repo -> built server -> client machine is not the way to go for kernels. Optimally, the client would fetch sys-kernel/gentoo-kernel-bin directly from the Gentoo repo, but everything else as a binary from the dedicated built server. How must the client be set up to achieve that? Probably, there are some other low-level packages (such as kernel modules and firmware) which should also be treated that way.
- End-user friendly upgrade procedure: Is there any KDE integration which would inform my father about new, available upgrades from the built server? While it is OK to provide my father with a message that upgrades are available or running and hence he shouldn't shut down the PC, I don't want to ask my father to learn interacting with a CLI. I believe that would simply to much.
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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nagmat84,
The build part of kernel upgrades will work on the build server but you will not got a binary package like all the rest.
I would expect the install part to fail.
Being lazy, I let the old weak system build its own kernel.
I've not used a ready made kernel and initrd in about 25 years, so I don't know the ins and out of it on Gentoo.
Late info.
Gentoo now offers a binhost. That was new in December.
To follow it totally, you need to use its profile and USE settings. The link is an overview. _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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Linubie Guru
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Joined: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 371
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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I use Manjaro it's basically Arch Linux but more user friendly on my second PC. It's easy to install and to maintain.
Maybe you like to check Manjaro for the mentioned purpose. _________________ Mircosoft software is like having sex with a stranger, you always have to be careful not to get infected with something... |
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sMueggli Guru
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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I would start with the needs of your father:
- what applications does he need and use?
- is he able to read distribution specific documentation?
- special software/codecs/drivers needed?
After that you need to choose between stable and rolling releases.
How do you want to support him? With a remote controlling tool (screen sharing) or just with an SSH access? And which Linux distribution can you support?
If you choose Gentoo, you should setup either a binhost on your infrastructure and compile all the packages for him or use the official Gentoo binhost. Setting the USE flags is maybe too much or too complicated for your father.
If you use a stable release distribution, you can in some cases choose between a long term support and a short term support release. And you should plan the version upgrades so that you are physically present. My favourites are Fedora (version upgrade every year) and Ubuntu (LTS releases so you can procrastinate version upgrades up to 5 years in case of LTS, but Ubuntu is forcing snaps [which are well suited for this use case]). Both have a huge user base and it is easier to find packages and support/documentation.
My rolling release favourites are Gentoo and Arch Linux. I have setup a binhost chroot on my main machine to compile basically all software for my Gentoo laptop and update the laptop with --usepkgonly. And the USE flags need to be the same in the chroot and on the laptop.
I have a daily-driver machine setup with Arch Linux. Mostly it is hassle-free. But it happened once that the X server did not start. And it might happen that the WLAN driver breaks and then you need physical access to the device. |
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szatox Advocate
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | While I love this kind of upgrade procedure and what I would prefer to have, I hesitate to use anything Debian-based. I used to manage Debian and Debian-based derivatives on some servers and replaced everything with Gentoo, because I never got acquainted with the package system. | You're trying to eat a cookie and have it too.
If you want to use emerge, stick with Gentoo. If you don't want Gentoo, get ready to use a different package manager.
Unless there is some particular package manager other than emerge you're comfortable with? In which case the decision makes itself for you.
Debian is a perfect fit for a low-maintenance someone else's PC. It is binary, it is stable, it has a huge support form developers, so pretty much everything just works out of the box.
Also, apt is not nearly as complex as emerge, I'm sure you can handle 8 commands (update, search, install, upgrade, dist-upgrade, remove, autoremove, clean) which happen to be named with easy to remember keywords, and it's man page is small enough it's actually helpful when you run into any problems.
Edit: Gentoo, even with a binhost, is not a binary distribution. I don't know what use flags the provided packages are configured with, but any customization you make will force you to build your own. You _can_ manage that system remotely, but I really suggest you go with a binary distribution and defined releases. Rolling release is great for us, tinkerers, but it's not so good for delivering a product to a consumer market.
And this is exactly how you should think about your scenario. Your dad is a normie consumer, who needs something ready-to-eat. It is OK to serve him a fast-food. _________________ Make Computing Fun Again |
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logrusx Advocate
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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nagmat84 wrote: |
I know that for certain huge packages (e.g. libreoffice, firefox, etc.) Gentoo provides pre-built binaries. This mitigates the problem of long compilation runs for those packages, but does not solve the remaining aspects of the issue I raised.
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I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just know that's not entirely correct. Just open the links, maybe only the news to get up to speed.
Best Regards,
Georgi |
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