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Gentoopc
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Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 322
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 Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 12:14 am Post subject: Re: question to kernel Gentoo developers |
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| sublogic wrote: | | Gentoopc wrote: | | I can write a Kernel module. But this is done only in the special programming language "C". The question was to launch a user function from the module. User function. Do you understand this? |
No. |
are you a developer? If not, then why are you here in this thread? Use what they gave you, fix eternal bugs, and enjoy life. you don’t even understand why you need the ability to run user functions from a kernel module, in a programming language other than the mutilated “C”. For the kernel and modules you won't be able to use plain "C". then why is it needed at all? I hope you realize this. |
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Hu
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Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 22158
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 12:28 am Post subject: |
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C++ can be used in the kernel, though it requires some special care since the kernel does not provide all the functionality required to activate all the language features. However, for policy reasons, Linus refuses to allow C++ code in the upstream kernel, so anything written in C++ will be out-of-tree for the indefinite future. That's "just" a policy problem though, not a technical one. Convince the right people that C++ has a place in the kernel, and it can be added fairly quickly.
I suspect the developers you hope to have active in this thread have better things to do, though perhaps some of them might decide to participate for their own entertainment. Just like in your prior topics, you come in with an idea that you do not describe well enough for anyone to understand, then get combative when we point out how wrong you are. That doesn't encourage people to help you.
That said, I suggest (though I have no intention of using moderator power to enforce) that all people who are not kernel developers bow out of this thread for a few days - myself included, of course. Perhaps Gentoopc will get amazingly lucky and someone who is in his target audience group will want to chime in and help him. |
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pingtoo
Veteran
Joined: 10 Sep 2021
Posts: 1052
Location: Richmond Hill, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 1:12 am Post subject: Re: question to kernel Gentoo developers |
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| Gentoopc wrote: | ...
I don’t understand why you defend your existing position so much.
... |
Are you mixing me(Pingtoo) with someone else? I have try to offer my help, I have suggest if you wish I can join your development.
On the other hand, you have selective reply my post, seems intentionally skip questions, Are you seriously about your idea?
What position you think I am insisting?
I been in IT industry for more than 35 years, I saw the first version of linux kernel code on NEWS group in 90s. if I have my floppy set I would have a 0,3 version of linux code.
Apparently I am not your target audience, I will bow out from this thread, thank you very mush for the entertainment. |
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Gentoopc
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Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 322
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| Hu wrote: | C++ can be used in the kernel, though it requires some special care since the kernel does not provide all the functionality required to activate all the language features. However, for policy reasons, Linus refuses to allow C++ code in the upstream kernel, so anything written in C++ will be out-of-tree for the indefinite future. That's "just" a policy problem though, not a technical one. Convince the right people that C++ has a place in the kernel, and it can be added fairly quickly.
I suspect the developers you hope to have active in this thread have better things to do, though perhaps some of them might decide to participate for their own entertainment. Just like in your prior topics, you come in with an idea that you do not describe well enough for anyone to understand, then get combative when we point out how wrong you are. That doesn't encourage people to help you.
That said, I suggest (though I have no intention of using moderator power to enforce) that all people who are not kernel developers bow out of this thread for a few days - myself included, of course. Perhaps Gentoopc will get amazingly lucky and someone who is in his target audience group will want to chime in and help him. |
thank you very much)))))) when we have already written a thousand unnecessary words that no one will even understand, and now we will sit and wait for a human developer who agrees to help)))))))))))) you are funny. in a good way. you understand that I don’t need help. everything I offer will be useful to you all. especially kernel developers. What I propose will make Linux distributions more interesting. because in some countries Linux distributions are used in education. children learn to program for Linux. but they are children, they need a low entry point. Making it possible to run custom functions from Linux kernel modules is just a great idea. children will not learn the specific language for the “C” kernel, which Linus Torvalds likes so much, but children need to be interested, perhaps these are future assistants in the development of the kernel. you were so looking for new powers that you allowed RUST, which gave nothing. but here is a simple idea useful to everyone that will make kernel modules what they should be. and this idea is ridiculed and rejected. Think for yourself why kernel modules are needed, why they create textbooks to write their own modules, but at the same time you cannot run a user function from them. The kernel module should be the interface for the user to interact with the system. |
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szatox
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Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3247
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | when we have already written a thousand unnecessary words that no one will even understand |
"We" means yourself and who else exactly?
| Quote: | | . you understand that I don’t need help. |
| Quote: | | now we will sit and wait for a human developer who agrees to help |
These 2 statements are mutually exclusive, so which one is it actually?
| Quote: | | everything I offer will be useful to you all |
Oh no! He's a politician! I'm waiting for "think about the children" line
| Quote: | | children learn to program for Linux. but they are children, they need a low entry point. |
Thank you.
Now take my money to fight terrorism and fact check me and it's a bingo.
Anyway, back to the topic:
| Quote: | | What I propose will make Linux distributions more interesting |
What you're propose is that someone else follows your arbitrary yet incomprehensible orders because you said so. Not very compelling.
| Quote: | | but here is a simple idea useful to everyone that will make kernel modules what they should be. and this idea is ridiculed and rejected. |
Everyone knows what a horse is.
Except that you're the only one sitting in your head, and your horse looks nothing like any other horse anyone has ever seen.
There is nothing to talk about until you define the subject. Which you're stubbornly refusing to do. And I have no idea why would running "user function" in kernel space be beneficial in any way. Kernel space and user space both exist for a reason, so why do you want to mix them up?
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Gentoopc
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Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 322
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 9:54 am Post subject: |
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I'll try to repeat it again, but shorter. A module should be an interface between the user and the kernel. Let engineers write the Linux kernel in their C. but you need to interact with the system kernel through a kernel module. All API conventions should not bother you. The API is intended for kernel developers. agreements between them. for users these conventions should not matter. if the user wants to write his own application, he must do so as a kernel module. it should be as simple as possible; he takes, for example, C++, Python, Rust, writes the code as a module, compiles it and runs it. there is no particular difficulty here. If it’s difficult for engineers, then they shouldn’t be called that. |
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Gentoopc
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Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 322
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: |
| Quote: | | now we will sit and wait for a human developer who agrees to help |
These 2 statements are mutually exclusive, so which one is it actually?
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I don't need help, those who live under the Linux kernel system need it. if the moderator said that this topic has been given time so that suddenly someone wants to come in and support this idea, then I think that no one else will come in, and if they come in, they won’t understand anything. Help comes in different ways, don't think you're giving it to me. rather, on the contrary, I'm trying to help the Linux community, I may not be able to do it, but I'm trying. And if someone can do this better, then well, I’m ready to wait for this help, but not for myself, but for everyone. |
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Gentoopc
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Joined: 25 Dec 2017
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: | | I have no idea why would running "user function" in kernel space be beneficial in any way. Kernel space and user space both exist for a reason, so why do you want to mix them up? |
so that users can, for example, write their own application and run it from a kernel module. A kernel module must provide an interface to interact with the Linux kernel. The user, the programmer, interacts with the kernel through its module. so right, so simple. you simply write an application, a C++ program, Rust as a module and run it. and you don't need any APIs. This will affect performance. I have already written about this. All this will open up new horizons. If you don't understand this, how many more times do I need to explain this? Opportunities are on the surface, but you ignore them. |
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szatox
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Joined: 27 Aug 2013
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 10:16 am Post subject: |
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You haven't explained it even once.
Why would a user want to run anything in kernel? We already have applications for running user code. Simplifying the architecture by moving user code to kernel would only make things more complicated.
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Gentoopc
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 10:18 am Post subject: |
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It's probably hard for you to believe, but if I wanted to go into the kernel and the program. then I would do it. yes, it will be difficult, but possible. and I wouldn't need modules, I'd just write system calls. but I propose a method that will make the system thinner and more productive. Now it's a mess. the kernel and the module have blurred boundaries, and it is not clear why a module is needed if it is easier to write directly into the kernel. |
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Gentoopc
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Joined: 25 Dec 2017
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: | You haven't explained it even once.
Why would a user want to run anything in kernel? We already have applications for running user code. Simplifying the architecture by moving user code to kernel would only make things more complicated. |
your applications you are talking about are a dead end. you mixed everything, flies and cutlets. Why does the user need all these methods, which are mostly difficult to implement? As proof, your system consists of continuous errors. and you will never solve them. a different approach is needed. start by creating a strong base structure. build a clear logic of interaction. it will be like the foundation on which everything will rest. make the module as an interface for interacting with the kernel without an API. APIs are needed by those who write inside the kernel. the individual user must be guided only by the agreement with himself. What's not clear here? then he will have a field for creativity. API is the framework that limits it. |
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BurningMemory
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Joined: 17 Jan 2023
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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At this point I honestly can't even tell if it's genuine, trolling or language model generated.
The original post, I mean. Also, about the latest message.
First of all, the user does not need anything other than a working
environment. Then there's the developer, who is the one making
it. If you wonder 'why', well, there's an easy complex answer:
go research. It is absolutely useless arguing kernel architecture
on a forum with people. If you want to change things - go ahead and
write to Linus. Let's see how he reacts to that, if at all. And the last
thing. Errors are basically inevitable because the humanity is
fundamentally flawed. Go learn real things and make your own
kernel and operating system, language and compiler, if you wish.
His late majesty, Terry the Terrible did it, didn't he? So, since we're
talking open source, why can't you? Maybe it's not APIs that are the
limiting factor, but rather one's capabilities and knowledge that don't
allow for proper customization? Please, don't take it as offense.
It is merely how I see it.
P.S. BPF is capable of running custom code nowadays, but it's not very safe doing so. |
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Gentoopc
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Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 322
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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you're an idiot. please don't take this as an insult. It's just a fact. thousands of people around the world contributed their efforts to create all this. they believed that it would be free and open, that it would bring good to people. that everyone can stand up and do something. what do we have today? on distributions like Ubuntu on forums they suggest that root rights are evil. moderators want users to simply install a Linux distribution, such as Windows, and not interfere with anything. For trying to run a function from a module using crutches that would call another function, I was accused of hacking the kernel. I wonder if the people who spent free hours of their lives developing Linux-like systems approved of this? that a handful of people will take everything for themselves and not allow anything to happen. and if you ask, they will tell you: go and do it yourself. But they have already done it for us! made for people by other people so that they can use it, so that everyone contributes something new and useful as payment. for LGBT people, Linus Torvalds immediately brought RUST into the core, although it is not needed there at all. But his girl asked for a daddy and everything was done. we are here tearfully asking to open the opportunity and make the kernel well systematized, but there are refusals everywhere. Why do I need a kernel module through which I cannot receive and transmit information to the kernel? this is due to safety. but that's a lie. blatant lie. They are deliberately raising the entry threshold so that only people on Microsoft's payroll rule the kernel. As they say, if you can’t win, then take the lead. Bill Gates couldn't buy it, but he went a different way, his people are everywhere, he just headed Linux. you endure everything like cattle. You don’t even say a word, they forced systemd on you, you didn’t even open your mouth. but when I come in, you all start fighting with me in a crowd. You're not fighting against that. where do you go when the word really needs to be said? you're like a mouse. immediately you came in and lectured me that I and people like me should go and write themselves, and you parasites will use and ruin everything that people have done for everyone. Linux kernel is not only for LGBT people and people like you. we shouldn’t beg on our knees for submissions from Torvalds, who doesn’t like NVIDIA and therefore there will never be CUDA support in the kernel. there will be nothing worthwhile in the core. This will not allow Microsoft to make free Linux better than paid Windows. on Linux distributions there is nothing but bugs that are introduced there specifically by the University of Minnesota. the core will contain everything except good ideas. they won’t be allowed there, and mice like you will only squeal at people like me. |
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pjp
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Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20216
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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After multiple unprovoked personal attacks, this thread no longer has a purpose.
@Gentoopc: stop insulting people.
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