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Hu
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Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 22325
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 Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2024 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| tranquilcool wrote: | | I would throw out systemd-udev and find a different way to do it and don’t have openrc look for anything in systemd directories. |
The proper way to "throw out systemd-udev" is to add to /etc/portage/package.use: | Code: | | sys-apps/systemd-utils -udev |
This will inhibit that package from building and installing the udev component. If instead you want nothing to do with systemd utilities, then add to /etc/portage/package.mask: | Code: | | sys-apps/systemd-utils |
In either case, be prepared for Portage to then explain to you what other packages cannot work with these settings, and to follow up by masking or changing the USE flags of those packages, too. |
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tranquilcool
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Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 1220
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| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2024 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| eschwartz wrote: | Using INSTALL_MASK without carefully understanding exactly what you are masking and why is dangerous and will lead to broken systems.
The string "systemd" is not inherently problematic and there is no reason to prevent its appearing in an installed system. Moreover, it is incredibly dangerous because, for example, what do you think you are going to do if some program such as sys-apps/portage contains a file in it:
/usr/lib/python3.12/site-packages/portage/util/systemdetails.py
And your INSTALL_MASK goes and deletes that file, and portage cannot collect information about the *details* of your *system*?
If you want to, I dunno, stop packages from installing a 4kb file called git-daemon@.service because you think the presence of a text file that goes unused is going to invite the moral evils of Red Hat's attempt at dominating Linux, then you do not have any right to lecture other people about "No systemd war please". Sorry.
| Code: |
$ du -sh /etc/init.d/
188K /etc/init.d/
$ ls /etc/init.d/
avahi-daemon busybox-ntpd cupsd docker ip6tables mit-krb5kdc pciparm pydoc-3.10 pydoc-3.8 svnserve udev
avahi-dnsconfd busybox-watchdog dbus fuse iptables mit-krb5kpropd pcscd pydoc-3.11 pydoc-3.9 switcheroo-control udev-settle
bluetooth calibre-server device-mapper git-daemon kmod-static-nodes munged postgresql-16 pydoc-3.12 rsyncd tlp udev-trigger
busybox-crond containerd dmcrypt gpm mit-krb5kadmind NetworkManager pydoc-2.7 pydoc-3.13 sshd twistd wpa_supplicant
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Oh no! What are all these openrc files doing on my systemd system??? I thought Gentoo was about *choice*?
Well, Gentoo is indeed about choice. You have the choice to use the init system you choose. What does that have to do with small text files that don't get used by any software? I am not mixing init systems just because I have openrc files on my systemd system! Because -- openrc isn't running.
Breaking a package because you incorrectly analyzed whether it would work with INSTALL_MASK is just a coding error by the system administrator that wrote a bad INSTALL_MASK. That's all there is to it -- there's nothing to debate.
...
What you can, of course, debate about, is whether the systemd-utils *package* is necessary on an openrc system. It's a valid question.
And it's a question that has an answer. The systemd project also includes some small utilities that are used on systems that don't have systemd as your /sbin/init process. OpenRC needs a tmpfiles.d compatible generator -- run by the openrc service manager, no less -- and it installs one that happens to have been written by the systemd project.
It also provides things such as a udev provider, a bootctl program, a kernel-install... depending on USE flags. If you do not like this, then check which packages depend on systemd-utils and consider building them with whatever combination of USE flags causes those packages to NOT require a dependency on virtual/udev, or systemd-utils, or whatever it is.
Don't be surprised if attempting to delete the "systemd" word from your system by using INSTALL_MASK instead of by choosing your USE flags carefully, causes your system to break. That's what happens when portage installs important files and you secretly delete those files instead of taking the time to fine-tune your USE flags so that those files aren't needed. |
No lectures on my part, am not a teacher.
Small files I don’t use in my system is considered cruft. I can’t avoid it, I am aware.
I am fine with breaking my system and fixing it with solutions and alternative solutions, that’s how I learn.
And most of all I like to express views, and sometimes somebody could be interested to talk about it without being
irritated. If nobody wants to talk about it, it ends there for me.
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this is a strange strange world.
Last edited by tranquilcool on Wed Jul 17, 2024 11:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tranquilcool
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Joined: 25 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2024 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Hu wrote: | | tranquilcool wrote: | | I would throw out systemd-udev and find a different way to do it and don’t have openrc look for anything in systemd directories. |
The proper way to "throw out systemd-udev" is to add to /etc/portage/package.use: | Code: | | sys-apps/systemd-utils -udev |
This will inhibit that package from building and installing the udev component. If instead you want nothing to do with systemd utilities, then add to /etc/portage/package.mask: | Code: | | sys-apps/systemd-utils |
In either case, be prepared for Portage to then explain to you what other packages cannot work with these settings, and to follow up by masking or changing the USE flags of those packages, too. |
Very clear. Thanks @Hu.
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pjp
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Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20320
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| Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2024 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| tranquilcool wrote: | | asturm wrote: | | As a consequence, please consider not filing bugs in the future. |
@asturm
Don't try to be fresh on me, and it doesn't matter if you accept my opinion or not. |
I _think_ asturm's point was that you are using INSTALL_MASK in a way that is known to have caused problems. Any resulting problems are yours to resolve and are not bugs.
Your opinion does not enter the equation (unless it comes up in a bug report :P).
I once used INSTALL_MASK for similar reasons. Once I learned that it could cause problems, I stopped. Choose your battles. The developers who support OpenRC / alternatives to systemd have only so much time on volunteer projects. Don't make them regret it.
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Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
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tranquilcool
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Joined: 25 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2024 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | tranquilcool wrote: | | asturm wrote: | | As a consequence, please consider not filing bugs in the future. |
@asturm
Don't try to be fresh on me, and it doesn't matter if you accept my opinion or not. |
I _think_ asturm's point was that you are using INSTALL_MASK in a way that is known to have caused problems. Any resulting problems are yours to resolve and are not bugs.
Your opinion does not enter the equation (unless it comes up in a bug report  ).
I once used INSTALL_MASK for similar reasons. Once I learned that it could cause problems, I stopped. Choose your battles. The developers who support OpenRC / alternatives to systemd have only so much time on volunteer projects. Don't make them regret it. |
Thanks all.
I have a long use experience with gentoo, right from the beginning, before openrc, before systemd. I know what’s install_mask and all the implications. When I break my system, and I have done that many many times, I know how to fix it. And whenever I cannot I file a bug report. Always very helpful. I concede I was maybe distracted when openrc started some kind of affiliation with systemd and as a result couldn’t avoid looking for things in systemd directories. I don’t care which init system is better. I chose to use openrc.
All said, I appreciate the work of the gentoo developers. Kudos!
I want to thank all who contributed to my rantings. Of course everybody understood what I was talking about. That’s all I needed.
Thank you.
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lars_the_bear
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Joined: 05 Jun 2024
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2024 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| eschwartz wrote: | | The string "systemd" is not inherently problematic and there is no reason to prevent its appearing in an installed system. |
With the greatest respect, I think the string 'systemd' _is_ now inherently problematic: it's a red flag. It's a reminder, in this particular case, that you're using something that is part of the systemd project. If I understand correctly, systemd-udevd isn't a Gentoo-specific fork of udevd: it's a direct inclusion of systemd-udevd from the upstream systemd project. If I'm mistaken about that, do please put me right.
I do understand why this situation exists, and I'm grateful to the Gentoo folks for making it possible for me to run a desktop system that is mostly systemd-free. But I wouldn't like it to be thought that I'm such a zealot that even the string 'systemd' makes me foam at the mouth.
BR, Lars. |
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