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stefantalpalaru
n00b
Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 47
Location: Italy
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 Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2024 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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> Right now it's compiling gcc, which I know from experience will take two days.
Disable the "lto" and "pgo" USE flags.
Make sure that Portage is not recompiling your old GCC version, by upgrading it separately and then uninstalling old versions:
| Code: | emerge -1av gcc
# select the latest version with "gcc-config"
emerge -cav gcc |
Last edited by stefantalpalaru on Wed Jul 31, 2024 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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eschwartz
Developer
Joined: 29 Oct 2023
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2024 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| lars_the_bear wrote: |
I've already switched to using binaries for things like Firefox, LibreOffice, and Thunderbird. I don't know if there are binaries for gcc and the other behemoths that need to be built now.
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There certainly are binaries for GCC -- they are available using FEATURES=getbinpkg, not as a "gcc-bin" package.
If you have the official gentoo binhost configured (from https://www.gentoo.org/news/2023/12/29/Gentoo-binary.html ) then by default emerge will warn you if you have USE flags that prevent being able to sync the binary package. The defaults are based on profile defaults. Currently available for amd64:
USE="cet (cxx) (default-stack-clash-protection) (default-znow) fortran (multilib) nls openmp (pie) sanitize ssp zstd"
with and without USE=multilib
Is this not sufficient for you? My feeling is that it's relatively niche to want non-default USE for this specific package. |
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C5ace
Guru
Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 483
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2024 7:26 am Post subject: |
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lars_the_bear
Do you have another modern PC with "Grunt"?
_________________
Observation after 30 years working with computers:
All software has known and unknown bugs and vulnerabilities. Especially software written in complex, unstable and object oriented languages such as perl, python, C++, C#, Rust and the likes. |
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lars_the_bear
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Joined: 05 Jun 2024
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2024 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| eschwartz wrote: |
There certainly are binaries for GCC -- they are available using FEATURES=getbinpkg, not as a "gcc-bin" package.
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I have FEATURES=getbinpkg but, in practice, I don't get many binary packages. Nearly everything I've installed gets built from source. The packages where I do get binaries seem to be smaller ones.
From what you say, I ought not to be having to rebuild gcc from source. My USE flags exclude a bunch of stuff, but nothing (I would have thought) that would affect build tools.
For some packages, I get a warning that says why a binary can't be installed. For gcc, I see no such warning -- emerge seems to behave as if there were no binary.
Is there a way I can find out why?
BR, Lars. |
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eschwartz
Developer
Joined: 29 Oct 2023
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2024 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| lars_the_bear wrote: | | eschwartz wrote: |
There certainly are binaries for GCC -- they are available using FEATURES=getbinpkg, not as a "gcc-bin" package.
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I have FEATURES=getbinpkg but, in practice, I don't get many binary packages. Nearly everything I've installed gets built from source. The packages where I do get binaries seem to be smaller ones.
From what you say, I ought not to be having to rebuild gcc from source. My USE flags exclude a bunch of stuff, but nothing (I would have thought) that would affect build tools.
For some packages, I get a warning that says why a binary can't be installed. For gcc, I see no such warning -- emerge seems to behave as if there were no binary.
Is there a way I can find out why?
BR, Lars. |
The index it uses is at /var/cache/edb/binhost/${MIRROR}/releases/amd64/binpackages/23.0/${ARCH}/Packages
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$ grep 'CPV:.*sys-devel/gcc' /var/cache/edb/binhost/gentoo.osuosl.org/releases/amd64/binpackages/23.0/x86-64-v3/Packages
CPV: sys-devel/gcc-13.2.1_p20240210
CPV: sys-devel/gcc-13.2.1_p20240210
CPV: sys-devel/gcc-13.2.1_p20240210
CPV: sys-devel/gcc-13.2.1_p20240210
CPV: sys-devel/gcc-13.2.1_p20240210
CPV: sys-devel/gcc-13.2.1_p20240210
CPV: sys-devel/gcc-13.3.1_p20240614
CPV: sys-devel/gcc-13.3.1_p20240614
CPV: sys-devel/gcc-config-2.11
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If you look manually through that file, you can check each index match to see what "USE:" and "RDEPEND:" are listed for that entry -- either one can mismatch and prevent the use of binpackages, for RDEPEND this typically means e.g. a subslot.
You can also manually download the actual file (PATH: sys-devel/gcc/gcc-13.3.1_p20240614-2.gpkg.tar) and emerge -a *.gpkg.tar, and it will try to install that exact binary and also tell you what, if anything, changed about it. |
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dmpogo
Advocate
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 3345
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2024 7:05 am Post subject: |
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My advice would be - do NOT upgrade often. Really, for your user experience you do not need to upgrade more often than once in a three month or so, unless there is a specific bug you are wating to be fixed, or some major change is announced.
I am with Gentoo from 2004, and in recent years the tendency to push minor updates frequently, even for very large packages, accelerated noticeably. If I look at my firefox and vivaldi which I have both installed as binaries, they are updated like once a week. So if I would have compiled them from the sources, I would be doing it almost continuously. There is also not a great coordination with update releases with dependencies. Just recently I recompiled libreoffice overnight on my 2007 machine, few hours on 2017 laptop) only to have poppler update released 3 days later which required recompilation of libreoffice. Or there are -r1 versions appearing few days after the update. If you stick to 3-4 month update cycle, you will probably save half, if not not more recompilations, by skipping minor inconsequential updates. Keep an eye if there is some security issue announced, and otherwise just use your laptop for what it is for. |
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lars_the_bear
Guru
Joined: 05 Jun 2024
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2024 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| dmpogo wrote: | | My advice would be - do NOT upgrade often. |
There doesn't seem to be much of a consensus on this point. Quite a few people on this thread have suggested long update periods (months). But also there's @pjp who updates daily, but says it's 'a bit of a pain'  Certainly the Gentoo documentation suggests frequent updates.
Right now, I have a stack of computer equipment that belongs to my employers or clients. I can do Gentoo updates in a virtual machine on one of these computers, and it only takes an hour or two. The same update on a 2017 laptop takes at least two days. I'm looking forward to retirement, and (bliss) only having one computer in my house. That's why I'm keen to know whether Gentoo represents a practical way to run Linux without tinkering and a stack of infrastructure.
I'm still not convinced. But I'll see what my next @world update looks like in, say, September, and make a go/no-go decision then.
Thanks.
BR, Lars. |
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pietinger
Moderator
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 4831
Location: Bavaria
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2024 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| dmpogo wrote: | | My advice would be - do NOT upgrade often. Really, for your user experience you do not need to upgrade more often than once in a three month or so, [...] |
From a practical point of view this is true, but from a security point of view (*) I recommend updating Gentoo as often as possible (I do it at least once a week ... at night ... where I don't care how long it runs).
*) What good is it if a developer fixes a security-critical bug within a few days if the update is not installed for months ? A rolling release model best fulfills my wishes regarding security.
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NichtDerHans
Apprentice
Joined: 27 Jan 2023
Posts: 173
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2024 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| lars_the_bear wrote: |
So far as I know, my laptop is cooled properly. The CPU is rated for continuous running at 100C, so 90-95C is within normal bounds. Well, normal bounds for the hardware; but the exhaust air melts the varnish on my desk. The 200W PSU is literally too hot to pick up. I can force the fan speed to maximum, to reduce the temperature without throttling, but it sounds like I'm standing behind a jet plane. The laptop (it's a T540) is designed to run really hot, I think. I have other Lenovo laptops, and they all run hot unless throttled.
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I think the laptop was defective in terms of temperature right from the start. I've just read through two test reports (in German) about it and there's no mention of high temperatures. On the contrary, it's quiet and cool.
| lars_the_bear wrote: |
I like Gentoo, but I'm not sure how practical it is. That you seem to be able to make it work is encouraging, but I don't seem to have the same experience as you. Perhaps I have just been unlucky?
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Gentoo is not for every purpose. I have a fast (3 years old) and a slow laptop (12 years old). I compile with the fast one for the slow one with chroot every two weeks an update. Plasma 6 complete update takes 3h. I would never install Gentoo if I only had the slow laptop. It would be a waste of time, nerves and energy. |
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lars_the_bear
Guru
Joined: 05 Jun 2024
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2024 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| pietinger wrote: | ...I recommend updating Gentoo as often as possible (I do it at least once a week ... at night ... where I don't care how long it runs).
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I can see how it might not be a problem if the update completed overnight. However, I'm finding that my monthly updates are taking 2-3 continuous days. It isn't just a matter of leaving it overnight.
I'm just not comfortable about running such a hot-running laptop at 100% capacity for days on end.
I really need a way to use Gentoo that doesn't require this kind of harsh treatment. Right now it looks like a choice between infrequent updates, or using something else entirely.
BR, Lars. |
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lars_the_bear
Guru
Joined: 05 Jun 2024
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2024 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| NichtDerHans wrote: |
I think the laptop was defective in terms of temperature right from the start. I've just read through two test reports (in German) about it and there's no mention of high temperatures. On the contrary, it's quiet and cool.
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I'm curious if the reports you mentioned tested compiling with all 8 cores at 100% capacity for several days? 
Right now I'm running just Spotify and a web browser, and the CPU temperature is 50C (25C above ambient). The fan is inaudible when the laptop is used this way. The P53 next to it on my desk is currently running at 43C in similar conditions, which is a tiny bit cooler, I guess. But that one will also ramp up to 90C when placed under extreme load. My Yoga 720 runs at 85C under full load, and has since new.
I've always assumed these machines are designed to run hot when required. They don't run hot under light load, only when they're being hammered.
| Quote: |
I would never install Gentoo if I only had the slow laptop. It would be a waste of time, nerves and energy.
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I don't think I would install Gentoo on anything else, to be honest. I don't care how bloated and inefficient Linux is, on a new, over-specified machine. Ubuntu runs just fine on those machines. I know I've said this before, but it seems ironic to me that computers that have the most to gain from Gentoo are the ones where it's hardest to use :/
BR, Lars. |
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eschwartz
Developer
Joined: 29 Oct 2023
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2024 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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The benefit of using a distro other than Gentoo is that they provide one official binary build for each package -- and you use it and are happy for it. No choices, no complicated fiddly tweaking of USE flags.
With the official binhost you can basically get that -- just stick to profile defaults -- the question is why in some cases like gcc, it's declining to install on at least one machine.
Incidentally, libreoffice, firefox are available as binpackages. You may need to accept e.g. USE="bluetooth pulseaudio" to make use of them, though the option to avoid them wouldn't be provided on binary distros anyway. |
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dmpogo
Advocate
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 3345
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2024 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| pietinger wrote: | | dmpogo wrote: | | My advice would be - do NOT upgrade often. Really, for your user experience you do not need to upgrade more often than once in a three month or so, [...] |
From a practical point of view this is true, but from a security point of view (*) I recommend updating Gentoo as often as possible (I do it at least once a week ... at night ... where I don't care how long it runs).
*) What good is it if a developer fixes a security-critical bug within a few days if the update is not installed for months ? A rolling release model best fulfills my wishes regarding security. |
Security critical bugs are usually announced and discussed, that's why I suggested keeping an eye on security discussions. Saying that, I have a strong feeling that many security issues are absolutely low probability for an individual user on a laptop.
I have Gentoo for 20 years, sometimes updating, sometimes not, and had no security issues. But, I am the guy who runs kernel with all mitigations turned off |
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dmpogo
Advocate
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 3345
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2024 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| lars_the_bear wrote: | | dmpogo wrote: | | My advice would be - do NOT upgrade often. |
There doesn't seem to be much of a consensus on this point. Quite a few people on this thread have suggested long update periods (months). But also there's @pjp who updates daily, but says it's 'a bit of a pain'
Thanks.
BR, Lars. |
My hardware is home server from 2007, Core 2 duo, 4 GB ram, office desktop from 2011, 4 cores 8 threads i7 12 GB ram, and 2017 laptop, 2 cores 4 threads i7 with 16 GB ram.
I keep in binary rust-bin, vivaldi and firefox, all the rest is compiled natively on each machine. All machines run KDE. The office desktop and laptop have libreoffice, which is the longest to compile. It takes around 3 hours or so.
GCC is the second longest, I think. It used to be rather quick, but since version 12 it became fairly slow. Still, it ends overnight even on 2007 Core 2 duo. Takes around 3 hours or so on the rest ( I need to time it).
Both newer machine can compile everything in shared memory. 4 GB one cannot compile some large things, so I often do a second run for them, pointing to an external drive as emerge working area.
I sync every day, when I am bored and need a distraction, and look at what updates come up. If it is something small, I usually update, if it is a new version of gcc or libreoffice, I make a decision. During teaching term Sept-Dec and Jan-April I never update
libreoffice, because I cannot risk that next day my lecture will load with errors. So in August I mask new versions of libreoffice, and maybe update it over Christmas or not, time permitting. With python I also do not rush, let it 'mature' and watch the forums whether there are any issues.
Usually update month or two after the release. Gcc, depends, typically I do not need nor anything does require a new version right away, so there is time.
Sometimes my hand is forced by dependencies, and then I either forget about updates altogether for sometime, or bite the bullet and do what is needed. Never had problems with such an approach. |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20329
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2024 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| lars_the_bear wrote: | | dmpogo wrote: | | My advice would be - do NOT upgrade often. |
There doesn't seem to be much of a consensus on this point. Quite a few people on this thread have suggested long update periods (months). But also there's @pjp who updates daily, but says it's 'a bit of a pain' :) Certainly the Gentoo documentation suggests frequent updates. |
It will depend on your circumstances and your preferences, so there isn't likely to be a consensus.
I also mentioned that I had previously updated less frequently. I didn't have much of a schedule, but probably not often more than once per month, and often longer than that. I got tired of parsing a lot of output for what to update and what to delay, etc. That's how I landed on daily. Some days there's nothing to update. Most days there isn't much.
Also consider that I have a build system that can handle most updates in a relatively short period of time. For the bigger packages that I do compile (firefox, gcc, llvm/clang), I often delay them and update them individually.
I'd first try to figure out why you're not pulling in the Gentoo pre-built binaries, because that would probably address a lot of the problems.
| lars_the_bear wrote: | | I'm looking forward to retirement, and (bliss) only having one computer in my house. That's why I'm keen to know whether Gentoo represents a practical way to run Linux without tinkering and a stack of infrastructure. |
I'd say some tinkering is required, but some of that is up to you. If you really only want one computer, then the current laptop you're using may not be suitable. Again, try figuring out why it isn't using Gentoo's binaries. It seems that's a key factor in what your choices are.
| lars_the_bear wrote: | | I'll see what my next @world update looks like in, say, September, and make a go/no-go decision then. |
If you updated today and wait until September, I'd almost guarantee you won't be happy with having waited.
The laptop isn't going to get faster or suddenly cool more effectively between now and then, so I think a better approach would be managing the updates and getting what the laptop can do "easily" done as soon as possible.
Good luck!
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lars_the_bear
Guru
Joined: 05 Jun 2024
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | Again, try figuring out why it isn't using Gentoo's binaries. It seems that's a key factor in what your choices are.
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Turns out that I wasn't getting binaries for _anything_ since I started using a private binhost to supply my laptops. `emerge` is using only my own binhost, not the Gentoo one. I started a new thread on this, because I'm completely baffled about why this would happen.
BR, Lars. |
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lars_the_bear
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Joined: 05 Jun 2024
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2024 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Well, I figured out why I wasn't getting binary packages at all. But it doesn't necessarily get me far, because I can now see that I'm not getting them because of USE flags. Because I have, for example, USE=-pulseaudio, it looks as if everything that does audio has to be built from source. I got new versions of `ffmpeg` and `libsdl2` this morning, but they only took about 15 minutes between them to build. I'm not looking forward to the next update for `vlc`.
At least I won't (I guess) have to rebuild gcc from source when it next updates.
So, while I think this improves the situation, I'm still not sure how much practical difference it will make. Time will tell, I guess.
BR, Lars. |
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pjp
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Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20329
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2024 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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FYI, I received updates for clang/llvm today. I should look into using the gentoo binpkgs for that stuff.
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