| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Gentoopc
Guru
Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 364
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 9:24 pm Post subject: NPU and GCC |
 |
|
Hello forum . Do you think it will be possible to interact with NPU using the "C" language for the Linux kernel? Will the GCC compiler provide such a possibility?
If I'm not mistaken, modern processors already contain NPU. It would be stupid not to use it. But knowing Linux developers, it may take 10 years before they implement something. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Hu
Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 22648
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 9:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| If NPU can be accessed from software, then yes, the kernel should be able to access it. C can be used for this, as C is very flexible. GCC supports inline assembly for those special cases where C cannot directly express what you need. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gentoopc
Guru
Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 364
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 10:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
GCC engineers just need to teach the compiler to generate code for execution on the NPU. I think the special people at Microsoft who are responsible for the Linux kernel will not allow this to be done quickly, so that Linux systems do not compete with Windows. Linux systems must lag behind commercial Windows. I think you understand why this is necessary. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3430
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 10:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Apparently software for NPU and Linux already exists.
Like torch for example
_________________
Make Computing Fun Again |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gentoopc
Guru
Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 364
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 10:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| szatox wrote: | Apparently software for NPU and Linux already exists.
Like torch for example |
I doubt NPU will be involved. Neither AMD nor Intel have offered them for sale yet. Everything that was announced was a marketing lie. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3430
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 10:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | If I'm not mistaken, modern processors already contain NPU |
| Quote: | | I doubt NPU will be involved. Neither AMD nor Intel have offered them for sale yet. |
Whatever
_________________
Make Computing Fun Again |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gentoopc
Guru
Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 364
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 11:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| szatox wrote: | | Quote: | | If I'm not mistaken, modern processors already contain NPU |
| Quote: | | I doubt NPU will be involved. Neither AMD nor Intel have offered them for sale yet. |
Whatever |
Correct. AMD delayed their CPUs. According to AMD, they already have the NPU. I can't verify this because they haven't shipped it yet due to operational issues. Intel said their CPUs will have the NPU from 13th gen, but in 14th gen, they disabled it because it causes operational issues. So I can't confirm AMD's claim that their CPUs already have the NPU because they are delayed, so I repels from words that the NPU is there, but I doubt it. Intel said they have the NPU, but it's disabled. From a marketing perspective, it's there, but it's disabled. You'd think the NPU isn't there.
That is, everything is already clear with Intel, but AMD is in question. We find out only after the release of their product. But Lisa is not particularly honest, so everything is in question. But we hope for the best that they are already in new processors. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pietinger
Moderator
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 5104
Location: Bavaria
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gentoopc
Guru
Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 364
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 1:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
Not the fact that this driver was assembled using GCC. I'm talking about the GCC compile. And what does this driver give, which you refer to if the NPU in Intel processors is disabled, it is equivalent that there is no NPU. I wrote above. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gentoopc
Guru
Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 364
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 1:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
What am I wrong? AMD and Intel processors are the same architecture and problems with it. Intel had problems with part of the processors. AMD realized that they will have the same thing, and with which they returned the sold processors of AMD to avoid failure. Now they will determine the marriage more strictly and will transfer on sale. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
logrusx
Advocate
Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2418
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 9:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gentoopc wrote: | | AMD and Intel processors are the same architecture and problems with it. Intel had problems with part of the processors. |
That's a wrong assumption. X86 architecture is how things look like top-down from running code's point of view, not bottom up from CPU's executing it point of view. CPU's can be build completely differently and still run code from the same architecture, Apple's M1 being able to run x86 code being an example.
Best Regards,
Georgi |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gentoopc
Guru
Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 364
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 10:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| logrusx wrote: | | Gentoopc wrote: | | AMD and Intel processors are the same architecture and problems with it. Intel had problems with part of the processors. |
That's a wrong assumption. X86 architecture is how things look like top-down from running code's point of view, not bottom up from CPU's executing it point of view. CPU's can be build completely differently and still run code from the same architecture, Apple's M1 being able to run x86 code being an example.
i |
Do you believe what the drawings show you? Both Intel and AMD have almost the same architecture. That AMD has a cache that intel has a cache, that AMD has ALU that Intel has ALU. that the AMD processor was built on interruptions also built a processor at interruptions and intel.
We don't need to believe what these companies show us on paper. You don't have the opportunity to check what's inside the processor, and I don't have that opportunity. Yes, AMD will show you a drawing of what their different architectural solutions are with INTEL, but this does not mean that this is the case in reality, let's look at the facts, and we will see that they did not accidentally encounter a problem, here it is minute by minute. their processors break down and the breakdowns are the same. AMD quickly recalled batches of its products. everything indicates that the architecture of intel and amd processors is the same, so they don't tell us. they can't tell us otherwise, otherwise we won't buy if amd and intel have the same architecture. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
logrusx
Advocate
Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2418
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 11:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gentoopc wrote: |
Do you believe what the drawings show you? Both Intel and AMD have almost the same architecture. |
Back in high school I actually studied microprocessors. There's a processor model from the programmer's point of view, which is not at all how the processor is internally built but what the programmer needs to know to make that processor do useful stuff. That's what the architecture is, not how the building blocks of the CPU actually are. The rest is mystery. Well actually back then it wasn't, but now it is. What you see on the "drawing" is that specific model which is from the point of view top to bottom. Bu bottom-up the picture is completely different.
| Gentoopc wrote: | | Yes, AMD will show you a drawing of what their different architectural solutions are with INTEL |
No they won't. They'll show only what the programmer needs to know. That's not different architectural solutions.
Best Regards,
Georgi |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Genone
Retired Dev
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 9608
Location: beyond the rim
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 4:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
At the moment only some of the most recent mobile chips come with an NPU, the current desktop lineup including the just released Zen5 models don't have one (thank god). And so far even MS doesn't really make use of them despite them putting the entire company on their CoPilot AI marketing. As the whole world slowly realizes that "AI" in its current incarnation isn't really turning the world upside down as promised by marketing departments.
| Quote: | | GCC engineers just need to teach the compiler to generate code for execution on the NPU. |
GCC has little to nothing to do with "AI" stuff. These things are not intended to run code but to process a very specific type of data.
| logrusx wrote: | | Apple's M1 being able to run x86 code being an example. |
M1 doesn't run x86 code, Apple just has a pretty decent software layer that translates x86 instructions into ARM instructions (MS is doing the same with their Windows on ARM). Nothing special there, qemu has been doing that for muliple architectures for decades (but with magnitudes slower performance). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
logrusx
Advocate
Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2418
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 4:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Genone wrote: |
M1 doesn't run x86 code, Apple just has a pretty decent software layer that translates x86 instructions into ARM instructions |
To my knowledge it's a hardware translation layer. There's no way it would be even usable if it was a software translation layer.
Best Regards,
Georgi |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Genone
Retired Dev
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 9608
Location: beyond the rim
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 5:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| logrusx wrote: | | Genone wrote: |
M1 doesn't run x86 code, Apple just has a pretty decent software layer that translates x86 instructions into ARM instructions |
To my knowledge it's a hardware translation layer. There's no way it would be even usable if it was a software translation layer. |
It is software, called Rosetta2 embedded in the core of the operating system (they did the same with Rosetta1 when switching from PowerPC to X86). They added some extra logic in hardware to minimize the performance impact, but the CPU can't run x86 code by itself. The translation is performed ahead of time when loading the executable, not directly at execution time. When running OS X it doesn't really matter, but you can't for example boot into a x86 operating system on Apple Silicon at all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
logrusx
Advocate
Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2418
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 5:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Genone wrote: | | They added some extra logic in hardware to minimize the performance impact, but the CPU can't run x86 code by itself. The translation is performed ahead of time when loading the executable, not directly at execution time. When running OS X it doesn't really matter, but you can't for example boot into a x86 operating system on Apple Silicon at all. |
That makes much more sense. I didn't claim it could directly run X86 instructions. That would have defeated the purpose of developing it first place. I just used it as the only known (to me?) example of processor that is capable of running code from a non-native architecture.
But in general, what the programmer see is a tiny piece of the whole picture. You can't judge for the hardware implementation by the architecture. Architecture here is not like the architecture of a building.
Best Regards,
Georgi |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gentoopc
Guru
Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 364
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Genone wrote: |
| Quote: | | GCC engineers just need to teach the compiler to generate code for execution on the NPU. |
GCC has little to nothing to do with "AI" stuff. These things are not intended to run code but to process a very specific type of data.
|
Gentlemen, I know what GCC is for and how it can be used. and I know what an NPU is. and I'm sure it can be programmed. but to do this, you will need a compiler, and I would like it to be GCC. not any other, but I wanted GCC to be able to work with NPU. do not mislead. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gentoopc
Guru
Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 364
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| logrusx wrote: |
Back in high school I actually studied microprocessors. There's a processor model from the programmer's point of view, which is not at all how the processor is internally built but what the programmer needs to know to make that processor do useful stuff. That's what the architecture is, not how the building blocks of the CPU actually are. The rest is mystery. Well actually back then it wasn't, but now it is. What you see on the "drawing" is that specific model which is from the point of view top to bottom. Bu bottom-up the picture is completely different.
|
you haven't studied the processor architecture well if you don't even know what it is. from the context of the conversation, it was possible to immediately understand what was being discussed, and not to tell about the instructions of the CPU, that this is its architecture. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
logrusx
Advocate
Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2418
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Keep it civilized or your thread is going to end up like the rest of your threads.
Best Regards,
Georgi |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gentoopc
Guru
Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 364
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Genone wrote: | | At the moment only some of the most recent mobile chips come with an NPU, the current desktop lineup including the just released Zen5 models don't have one (thank god). |
here you are right, there will be no breakthrough in AI. because these guys want to use logic for relays for a machine that should think like a human. their approach and weight distribution is just terrible. we need new logic for machines.
Last edited by Gentoopc on Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3695
Location: Rasi, Finland
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 10:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Gentoopc,
You're mostly complaining at the wrong forum.
If you want to generate code for NPU using GCC, this is not the place to ask for support to that feature, since it does not exist (yet?). Instead you should be writing to GCC mailing list etc...
| Gentoopc wrote: | | you haven't studied the processor architecture well if you don't even know what it is. |
Comments like that just push this thread towards locked state.
_________________
..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
-systemd -logind -elogind seatd |
| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gentoopc
Guru
Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 364
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 11:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Zucca wrote: |
| Gentoopc wrote: | | you haven't studied the processor architecture well if you don't even know what it is. |
Comments like that just push this thread towards locked state. |
there is no insult here. it's just my opinion. are you forbidding him to express his opinion? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gentoopc
Guru
Joined: 25 Dec 2017
Posts: 364
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 11:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Genone wrote: | | At the moment only some of the most recent mobile chips come with an NPU, the current desktop lineup including the just released Zen5 models don't have one (thank god). |
https://postimg.cc/ns7WD5Ss
as I said AMD claims to have NPU in the form of XDNA2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3430
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 1:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Double posting, contradicting yourself, writing about yourself in 3rd person.... I though lobotomy has been banned since before the internet era, and yet here we are.
What is the actual purpose of this topic?
Do you have a question you want answered? An opinion to share? A cool project to brag about?
It started as a question, but now I'm just lost; I simply can't tell what's your goal anymore.
_________________
Make Computing Fun Again |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Portage & Programming
