Optimizing install-time settings to use binary host

lars_the_bear · Guru Joined: 05 Jun 2024 Posts: 535

Hi folks

This is a spin-off from an earlier thread. I've been trying to work out what settings I should use, at installation time, to take advantage of the gentoo binhost. My computers are not fast at compiling, and routine updates are taking 2-3 days at 100% CPU.

In the earlier thread, @sam said:

pietinger · Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 9:25 am Post subject:

Please give us the output of

* emerge --info
* grep -r --exclude-dir=savedconfig --exclude-dir=repos.conf "" /etc/portage
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lars_the_bear · Guru Joined: 05 Jun 2024 Posts: 535

pietinger

lars_the_bear,

I can see that you are running Gentoo in a VM, using an 4 Core CPU with Intel Hyperthreading (means 8 logical cores) and you have given 9 GB RAM to this VM ...

pietinger · Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 10:48 am Post subject:

P.S.: Sorry, I have not looked closely ...

Please do a:

lars_the_bear · Guru Joined: 05 Jun 2024 Posts: 535

@pietinger

Thank you. Please don't let me distract you with my VM settings -- I just set this one to test the effect of USE flags on compilation. I won't be using it for anything beyond that, and I didn't pay any attention to resource settings.

It would never have occurred to me in a million years to to use the profile

default/linux/amd64/23.0/desktop/gnome

if I didn't intend to run Gnome. I will try this, and see what happens.

When I was told that I would get most use of the binhost if I get to profile defaults, it wasn't clear to me that this only applies to certain profiles.

BR, Lars.

pietinger · Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 11:14 am Post subject:

lars_the_bear · Guru Joined: 05 Jun 2024 Posts: 535

@pietinger

Thanks for you help, but I have to say that it doesn't really help, to use profile [25] (desktop/gnome) as an alternative to profile [23] (desktop).

Yes, I get more stuff supplied as binaries, which is what I wanted. But it creates a system that is designed to use pulseaudio. The ALSA configuration is set up as it is on Ubuntu, with 'pulse' as the default device. So, as a result, you have to be really careful to specify a particular ALSA device on everything that does audio. And some applications (e.g., firefox, so far as I can tell) don't even give you the option. Otherwise, pulseaudio gets started automatically, whether you want it or not. And when it's started, it seizes control of the ALSA devices.

And when I install Xfce4 ('emerge xfce4-meta), I get an installation of Xfce4 that is set up to use Pulse. So there's a panel applet for the Pulse mixer. So pulseaudio starts as soon as the desktop starts. I can fix this easily enough, just by removing the applet. I can also fix the ALSA configuration so it doesn't start pulseaudio, but it's a bit fiddly.

I've gone through this process with Ubuntu: I can remove Pulse, with some difficulty, but it comes back at the next update. I don't know if the same would be true for Gentoo.

In addition, when I install Xfce4, a colossal amount of Gnome stuff gets installed, including 'gnome-desktop'. I don't have to run it, so all it wastes is storage, but it's quite a lot of storage. With profile [23] (desktop), 'emerge xfce4-meta' installs something like 96 dependent packages. With profile [25] (desktop/gnome), it's over 200.

I really don't want to use Pulse. I have some applications -- some I wrote myself -- that work directly with ALSA, and Pulse breaks them. And even with applications that have specific Pulse support, it messages about with the audio streams.

There doesn't seem to be a way to use the Gentoo binhost to populate and maintain a really minimal system -- no Pulse, no Wayland, no Gnome stuff. But I'd love to find that I was just missing something.

BR, Lars.

eschwartz · Developer Joined: 29 Oct 2023 Posts: 238

eschwartz · Developer Joined: 29 Oct 2023 Posts: 238

pjp · Administrator Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20496

@lars_the_bear

The idea is that you install the binaries, then make USE changes. That will of course require you to build stuff. You can then evaluate what that is and if it helps any. Minimize what you want to eliminate. Support for wayland doesn't necessarily mean you have to use wayland. I presume that it also supports X, so you choose.

You won't get the minimal system you originally tried to make. The question is whether or not the compromise is acceptable. You've already ruled out other options. So if this too isn't an option, then you are left with pen and paper.
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lars_the_bear · Guru Joined: 05 Jun 2024 Posts: 535

@eschwartz

Thank you. I'm trying to understand how you arrived at the `package.use/desktop` file (or snippet of file) you posted. Is it something you deduced, or is it just a matter of trying to install things, seeing what doesn't get a binary, and then tweaking until it does?

And if you do that, how do you know that you'll end up with components that actually work together? Or is it just a matter of trying it and seeing what happens?

For example, if I have

lars_the_bear · Guru Joined: 05 Jun 2024 Posts: 535

eschwartz · Developer Joined: 29 Oct 2023 Posts: 238

pietinger · Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 7:37 pm Post subject:

lars_the_bear,

you have a strong Skylake i7 ... and 9 GB RAM is really sufficient to compile all appliations.

I love to have also a minimal system (but I also love KDE) ... So I suggest go the (old) Gentoo way and dont use prebuild packages. If you use XFCE you really should have no problems getting a lot of packages,

Maybe change also your COMMON_FLAGS= to

pjp · Administrator Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20496

Hu · Administrator Joined: 06 Mar 2007 Posts: 22729

I expect that getting a Linux that works as well as DOS, and no better, isn't that hard on old hardware. DOS sets the bar so low that it is easy to reach. DOS had no built-in networking, so you have minimal need for a browser or mail client on this hypothetical Linux. DOS had no built-in WIMP system (that was what Windows was for), so no need for X11 or Wayland. DOS predated both 64-bit CPUs and systems where 32-bit addressing was insufficient to cover all of RAM, so you can use a no-PAE 32-bit Linux kernel.

pjp · Administrator Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20496

I'd probably go with TempleOS. If I recall, it had some games. Holy C alone might be worth it.
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lars_the_bear · Guru Joined: 05 Jun 2024 Posts: 535

flysideways · Guru Joined: 29 Jan 2005 Posts: 494

pjp · Administrator Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20496

lars_the_bear · Guru Joined: 05 Jun 2024 Posts: 535

Hu · Administrator Joined: 06 Mar 2007 Posts: 22729

eschwartz · Developer Joined: 29 Oct 2023 Posts: 238

Gonna reiterate again that there are two entirely different packages:

- libpulse, provides library APIs which projects that support pulseadio need to have available due to link requirements, in order that said projects can implement "if pulseaudio is running, interact with it"

- pulseaudio-daemon, a sound server daemon

If we look at qtwebengine, for example, here is its dependency:

pulseaudio? ( media-libs/libpulse[glib] )

Note, it depends on libpulse, not the daemon. You can compile qtwebengine with runtime-switchable support for pulseaudio, and the binhost does, but all that means is installing the libpulse support libraries. You aren't forced to *use* pulseaudio, and you aren't even forced to *install* it -- just to install the support libraries. Although either way, nothing forces you to *run* it.

Using prebuilt binaries for convenience, adds *installation dependencies* on libpulse, it does not force you to actually use pulseaudio-daemon. This is the same reason why most binary distros tend to compile with libpulse support as the only option, even though they do allow you to run alsa or pulseaudio as you please.

lars_the_bear · Guru Joined: 05 Jun 2024 Posts: 535