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stefantalpalaru
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 76
Location: Italy
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 Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2024 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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> Since I am not an English native speaker, I sometimes use DeepL for translations; additionally Google Translator for important things.
English is my third language, out of four, so I understand the struggle. What I do not understand is how you ended up moderating an English language forum.
What qualified you for this position of power? Clearly not your mastery of the English language, if you still rely on robo-translation and see no problem with it. Could it be that, when you're part of the club, competence is irrelevant?
I suspect this mechanism plays an important part in rejecting outside contributions. Core Gentoo devs are, on some level, aware of their shortcomings as expert beginners and they band together in order to reject any criticism. In this framework, any outside contribution is a form of criticism and needs to be ignored or outright shut down. Anything else would be an admission of error and that would undermine the illusion of infallibility that binds club members together.
> The biggest disagreement seems to boil down to which EAPIs are supported and which are not.
No, it's the general incompetence of core Gentoo devs and all the behaviour stemming from that. Let me illustrate with an example (one of thousands): the sibling packages "sci-libs/caffe2" and "sci-libs/pytorch".
On December 22, 2022 I forked caffe2 to my public overlay in order to fix CUDA support - quite an important feature for PyTorch. Strangely enough, CUDA support was supposedly added to the main Gentoo repo on July 3rd - but it could not have worked, so it was "added" without even trying to build it with that USE flag, let alone test it by running an example. I also reported the problem, along with my fix, to the Gentoo bug tracker. The fix was applied in the main Gentoo repo only on February 27, 2023 - so it took over two months to fix a problem when the patch was already available.
In April 2024, a new version of "dev-util/nvidia-cuda-toolkit" appeared in the main tree and caffe2 failed to build with it. I located an upstream patch and an Arch Linux one that fixed the problem. Added them to my overlay, on April 4th, and tested them properly. Gentoo devs decided to restrict the supported nvidia-cuda-toolkit versions instead, which is a minor nuisance for those wanting the latest bug fixes and features there. What's more interesting is how long that avoidable restriction stayed in place - long after PyTorch upstream fixed its compatibility problem on July 24, by releasing 2.4.0. When did Gentoo devs remove that restriction? On October 11.
But that's just them being slow to react, right? Maybe they just don't personally care about the package so it's not a priority. Let's look at what they did when caffe2 failed to build when "dev-libs/sleef" missed one of these CPU_FLAGS_X86: avx, avx2, avx512f. First, they misunderstood the problem as being just an unavoidable AVX512 dependency, so they required sleef to be built with the corresponding USE flag. That was not enough, users kept reporting build failures, so they... required sleef to be built with all of its CPU_FLAGS_X86 enabled, for good measure.
What this shows is an inability to dig into PyTorch's build system to see what is going on and, instead of solving the root cause in an elegant way, throwing shit at the wall to see if it sticks. PyTorch only cares about sleef's support for AVX, AVX2 and AVX512. Nothing else. These dependencies are conditional on CMake variables, on PyTorch's side. It's not pretty, it's not documented, but it works and it allows us to let Gentoo users set whatever CPU_FLAGS_X86 they need, instead of blindly enabling all of them.
Now imagine seeing this level of incompetence all the time, for many years, and you will understand my "tone" when dealing with them.
> You must have me confused with someone else, because I've never banned anyone!
I see all of you Gentoo devs as an amorphous blob - a rubber wall I hit every time I try to help Gentoo users. You are the obstacle I need to work around, in order to reach them. |
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pietinger
Moderator
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 5329
Location: Bavaria
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2024 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| stefantalpalaru wrote: | > You must have me confused with someone else, because I've never banned anyone!
I see all of you Gentoo devs as an amorphous blob - a rubber wall I hit every time I try to help Gentoo users. You are the obstacle I need to work around, in order to reach them. |
I'm sorry to disappoint you - I'm not a Gentoo developer.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | [...] What I do not understand is how you ended up moderating an English language forum.
What qualified you for this position of power? Clearly not your mastery of the English language, if you still rely on robo-translation and see no problem with it. Could it be that, when you're part of the club, competence is irrelevant? |
Maybe because I'm not an asshole and I'm an old man with some life experience who tries to deal appropriately with all kinds of attacks. Maybe I'm also a bit qualified because I used to be an honorary judge. My grandpa also said: “Mistakes made by other people are no justification for making the same mistakes yourself”. You know: In real life (company/organization) being the best developer is of no use if you are a toxic person that nobody wants to work with. But sometimes you have to get a little older and mature to learn some humility. Of course young people make more mistakes than old people - they lack experience. But then you should try to learn instead of seeing enemies everywhere. Perhaps you know the joke: “Ghost drivers? One? Hundreds!” If one person doesn't want to work with you ... if many don't want to ... ? !! Just think about it and stop your attacks ... or wait until you are older. Respect is a mutual thing. You can't expect respect if you don't respect others.
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szatox
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Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3477
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2024 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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Look, I get that you're tired and frustrated, and there certainly were/are things I'm not completely happy about, but ultimately "done" beats "perfect".
I don't think things are even close to being as bad as you portray them. After all, Gentoo's been dying for like 20 years by now and it's still kicking. With such utterly incompetent devs it absolutely wouldn't be possible. Overall I'd say it working pretty well.
Hell, you don't think that either. You'd have given up a long time ago if you did.
| Quote: | | I see all of you Gentoo devs as an amorphous blob |
That's a you problem, and it might be the reason why you're having such a hard time. There is no single blob, it's a bunch of individuals doing their own things in the same general area. If you try to approach it as a single entity, scolding A for whatever thing B did, of course you're going to get kicked to the curb.
People don't like having their time wasted. Why would they want to listen to you when you're barking up the wrong tree?
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stefantalpalaru
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 76
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2024 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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> Maybe because I'm not an asshole
Yes, that's exactly it! You join the club by kissing the arses of existing members, and then you get to lord over those arsehole peasants. It's a great social mechanism for your local political party section, but it clearly does not work when dealing with technical matters, like we do in the software world.
You might be the nicest person in the house, according to your mum, but - when your gross incompetence is harming hundreds of Gentoo users - I get to criticise you.
Don't get mad. Don't remove my overlay from the official list, so "eix -sR ..." no longer shows my packages. Instead, try to also be nice to those your consider your inferiors.
> I'm an old man
But are you a wise one? |
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stefantalpalaru
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 76
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2024 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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> ultimately "done" beats "perfect"
No argument there. What I'm arguing against is a set of harmful practices, not those ugly hacks that are "close enough for Jazz".
> Overall I'd say it working pretty well.
Is that why I'm maintaining 906 packages in my overlay?
> People don't like having their time wasted.
Oh, the irony... |
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pietinger
Moderator
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 5329
Location: Bavaria
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2024 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | Yes, that's exactly it! You join the club by kissing the arses of existing members, and then you get to lord over those arsehole peasants. It's a great social mechanism for your local political party section, but it clearly does not work when dealing with technical matters, like we do in the software world. |
You can't imagine how wrong you are with this assumption ... 
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | [...] Don't remove my overlay from the official list, so "eix -sR ..." no longer shows my packages. Instead, try to also be nice to those your consider your inferiors ? |
You have to learn to talk to the right people. I'm definitely the wrong person to talk to here.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | > I'm an old man
But are you a wise one? |
Certainly not as wise as my grandpa was. But hopefully I still have a few years to grow ... don't forget: you never stop learning ... even if it gets a little less with age.
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GDH-gentoo
Veteran
Joined: 20 Jul 2019
Posts: 1791
Location: South America
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2024 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | | Needless to say, interactions with this individual are going back much further than their recent utterances on their isolated overlay. It is everyone's guess what tone they struck on average. |
Me when this was posted: "Hmmm, really? They couldn't have been that bad..."
Me today: "I see..."
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| Ionen wrote: | | As a packager I just don't want things to get messier with weird build systems and multiple toolchains requirements though |
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Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3888
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2024 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| stefantalpalaru wrote: | Yes, that's exactly it! You join the club by kissing the arses of existing members, and then you get to lord over those arsehole peasants. It's a great social mechanism for your local political party section, but it clearly does not work when dealing with technical matters, like we do in the software world.
You might be the nicest person in the house, according to your mum, but - when your gross incompetence is harming hundreds of Gentoo users - I get to criticise you. |
This might be the prime example of why the devs don't want to deal with you. Can't really blame them.
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..: Zucca :..
| My gentoo installs: | init=/sbin/openrc-init
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| Quote: | | I am NaN! I am a man! |
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Hu
Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 23028
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2024 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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I find the origin of this dispute interesting, since stefantalpalaru started it by making two mistakes. The first mistake was trying to fight against the inevitable janitorial work of a rolling release. EAPI 6 was no longer needed in the main tree, so it was removed to simplify the logic in the main tree. The Gentoo maintainers cannot reasonably hold back the tree for the sake of compatibility with every overlay in existence, or even every public overlay. I quickly found EAPI 8 is here! @ 2021-06-16 23:10, so it seems like EAPI 8 is more than 3 years old, and EAPI 7 likely even older. I also found The ultimate guide to EAPI 7 [Posted on 2018-05-03]. That post does call EAPI 7 a more significant update, but even so, it is now more than 6 years old. Therefore, in my opinion, there has been plenty of time for maintained overlays to update to at least EAPI 7, and preferably to EAPI 8. Any overlay still relying on EAPI 6 has ebuilds that are, again, in my opinion, effectively unmaintained. From that, I think a maintained overlay should not have even noticed when EAPI 6 support was removed from the main tree. stefantalpalaru still had EAPI 6 ebuilds when the main tree dropped support. He opted for the workaround of restoring EAPI 6 support, rather than updating the affected ebuilds. Although technically ugly, that would have been fine.
The second, and in my opinion much bigger, mistake was how he communicated his choice of workaround and his opinion of the need for it. If he had instead committed EAPI 6 support with a neutral message like "Add EAPI 6 support to overlay; some ebuilds here still use it.", I doubt the Gentoo maintainers would have paid much attention. Instead, he committed with an insulting message, and kept pressing his attitude at every opportunity. |
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stefantalpalaru
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 76
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2024 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Hu wrote: | | If he had instead committed EAPI 6 support with a neutral message like "Add EAPI 6 support to overlay; some ebuilds here still use it.", I doubt the Gentoo maintainers would have paid much attention. |
Why are Gentoo maintainers stalking my Git history, looking for offending commit messages? Do they do that for any of the other 420 overlays in their official overlay list?
| Hu wrote: | | The Gentoo maintainers cannot reasonably hold back the tree for the sake of compatibility with every overlay in existence, or even every public overlay. |
"git-r3.eclass" dropped EAPI 6 support on July 11, silently breaking all EAPI 6 ebuilds, in the main tree and all overlays. This breakage could not be detected by any other means than trying to emerge an affected package on a system where it was never installed before, or manually deleting its distfile and then emerging it.
EAPI 6 was banned on August 26 - a month and a half later. This breakage was very visible, unlike the first one.
The benefits from dropping old EAPIs are so insignificant that they cannot even begin to justify the amount of avoidable work that is multiplied by hundreds of Gentoo users maintaining their own overlays. This is not regular maintenance work. It's useless work and wasted time. It's a spit in the face. It's a "fuck you for using Gentoo and it's all your fault anyway".
No, it's not us. It's you. You Gentoo maintainers are making it much harder than it needs to be, for us Gentoo users. I still don't understand why. Is it malice, incompetence, a combination of both? Does it please you, to know that you waste other people's time? Do you get a kick out of it?
One other thing that I don't understand is how are you not upset by all this breakage. Do you not use Gentoo daily? Do you not have your own overlays - public or private? I use Gentoo on everything from servers, workstations, laptops, mini PCs, SBCs, etc. Don't you? What other distros are you using instead? Why are you still involved in ruining the experience of Gentoo users - is it just the social clout? Can't you get out of the circus and do something else with your time?
Also, why the hatred? What makes you remove my overlay from that list with 420 other overlays, in order to make it harder for my fellow Gentoo users to discover and use it? What did I ever do to you? I try to work around you at every point. I try to minimise all my interactions with you people, in my attempt to help fellow Gentoo users. Why does that bother you so much? Why do you take it personally? Are Gentoo users your property and I'm infringing on that? |
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pietinger
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Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 5329
Location: Bavaria
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logrusx
Advocate
Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2640
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2024 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Hu wrote: | | The second, and in my opinion much bigger, mistake was how he communicated his choice of workaround and his opinion of the need for it. If he had instead committed EAPI 6 support with a neutral message like "Add EAPI 6 support to overlay; some ebuilds here still use it.", I doubt the Gentoo maintainers would have paid much attention. Instead, he committed with an insulting message, and kept pressing his attitude at every opportunity. |
He has much bigger issues than those, but this is not the place to discuss or treat them. No, it wasn't that commit message. At first I thought so too, but look at the pull requests he has linked. One of them is from 2018. And this is only the visible part.
Also almost all of those PR's somebody went and had to take care of him every step of the way. "You missed this", "You forgot that", "You messed that", "Isn't <description of how it should be done> better?". Instead of him taking note, reading the docs and following the conventions, he waited for somebody to point out his mistakes and neglects, simply replaying "Done.", "Fixed." and so on. And this person claims they have over 14 years of professional experience. If I had such an employee or If I worked with such a contractor, I would have shown him the door so long ago that I would find it extremely hard to remember.
And a guy who resurrects EAPI 6 instead of going with the flow and fixing all his stuff he (claims to) cares so much about dares to call anybody incompetent. That's a work so sloppy, that it doesn't even deserve to be pointed out.
No wonder he couldn't find a job as a doctor. This kind of attitude closes doors even before you approach the corner behind which they are.
I'm amazed of how long somebody on the Gentoo side had to deal with him.
I still maintain the stated reasons for dropping his repo from the official list of overlays should have been something like "Lack of communication, QA issues, Disrespectful behavior", rather than the message that looks like taking offense. And it should have happened so long ago that everybody who dealt with him would have forgotten already.
And who are those hundreds of users? I can only think of one possible user - OP. I tried to see traffic statistics of his repo but it looks like GitHub shows those only to the owners.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: |
One other thing that I don't understand is how are you not upset by all this breakage. Do you not use Gentoo daily? |
They do, they just don't use your overlay. Neither does anybody else. Where are those hundreds of users. Show us statistics from GitHub.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | What did I ever do to you? |
OMG, you have the arrogance to play it victim and ask that after causing so much trouble. What a hypocrisy.
Best Regards,
Georgi |
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szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3477
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2024 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You Gentoo maintainers are making it much harder than it needs to be, for us Gentoo users. I still don't understand why. Is it malice, incompetence, a combination of both? Does it please you, to know that you waste other people's time? Do you get a kick out of it? |
Yes, yes, core devs are the bane of Gentoo, and OBVIOUSLY we would all be better off without them.
Can you remind me why exactly do you keep allowing them to break your repo instead of just, you know, forking off?
Whether it's malice or incompetence: People have a finite amount of time and attention, and by default they owe you absolutely nothing. You and your overlay simply are not their priority; deal with it.
Your options are to appreciate that it is now possible to use multiple portage trees at the same time (which make community overlays actually viable, and is a great improvement over main tree + local overlay), or replace the main tree with your own.
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Hu
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Joined: 06 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2024 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | Why are Gentoo maintainers stalking my Git history, looking for offending commit messages? |
I do not speak for the Gentoo maintainers in this regard, so I cannot answer this. If I had to guess, someone had reason to look at your activity, and the log message came up incidentally to checking the technical changes. Based on remarks others have made, this may have merely been the final step that pushed for action, after other provocations elsewhere.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | Do they do that for any of the other 420 overlays in their official overlay list? |
I do not know.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | "git-r3.eclass" dropped EAPI 6 support on July 11, silently breaking all EAPI 6 ebuilds, in the main tree and all overlays. |
That commit was committed that day, yes, but when was it published to the world? Moreover, this was the end of a long project removing EAPI 6, which was tracked at least in part in [TRACKER] EAPI 6 removal, beginning 2021-02-12, more than 3 years before the commit you cite.
Even as of that commit, though there were EAPI=6 ebuilds still in tree, none of them appear to be live ebuilds: | Code: |
$ git grep EAPI=6 e27f68c1a16993efd00c81145d33d792a0f870d9 -- '*.ebuild' | wc
68 68 6566
$ git grep EAPI=6 e27f68c1a16993efd00c81145d33d792a0f870d9 -- '*9999*.ebuild' | wc
0 0 0
$ git grep 'inherit.*git-r3' e27f68c1a16993efd00c81145d33d792a0f870d9 -- $(git grep -l EAPI=6 e27f68c1a16993efd00c81145d33d792a0f870d9 -- '*.ebuild' )
$ |
Accordingly, I would not expect the change to git-r3 to break anything in ::gentoo. What am I not seeing here?
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | This breakage could not be detected by any other means than trying to emerge an affected package on a system where it was never installed before, or manually deleting its distfile and then emerging it. |
I cannot evaluate whether this is correct, but if so, that would certainly be unfortunate. How many ebuilds with EAPI=6 were still in ::gentoo at the time this commit was published to the world? Are there public reports of specific things in ::gentoo that broke? I was not able to find any such reports with a quick search.
As I read the git data, no ebuilds were using it as of the ban date: | Code: |
$ git grep EAPI=6 861bac0e80f7ba9952417c2b0dcb151bb6085a5b --
861bac0e80f7ba9952417c2b0dcb151bb6085a5b:eclass/tmpfiles.eclass:35:# EAPI=6
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| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | EAPI 6 was banned on August 26 - a month and a half later. This breakage was very visible, unlike the first one. |
The commit you cite also shows a comment stating that the council banned EAPI 6 on 2023-07-11, more than a year before the commit that implemented the ban.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | The benefits from dropping old EAPIs are so insignificant that they cannot even begin to justify the amount of avoidable work that is multiplied by hundreds of Gentoo users maintaining their own overlays. |
I cannot comment on the benefits, but it seems reasonable to assume that there are some benefits, since the Gentoo maintainers had to go through quite a bit of work to purge it from the ::gentoo tree before they could remove support for it. If removing it has insignificant benefit, why did they go to the trouble?
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | This is not regular maintenance work. It's useless work and wasted time. |
I doubt this. The scope of the work exceeds what I think volunteers would bother completing if they got no benefit from it.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | No, it's not us. It's you. You Gentoo maintainers ... |
Do you realize you are again conflating different people? I was not involved in the EAPI 6 work.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | One other thing that I don't understand is how are you not upset by all this breakage. Do you not use Gentoo daily? |
I use Gentoo daily. I read the forums daily, and based on my post count, answer several posts a day. I did not notice any breakage from this. My overlay survived this just fine.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | Do you not have your own overlays - public or private? |
I have a private overlay for things of interest to me.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | I use Gentoo on everything from servers, workstations, laptops, mini PCs, SBCs, etc. Don't you? |
I do not use Gentoo in all those contexts, no.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | What other distros are you using instead? |
None.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | Why are you still involved in ruining the experience of Gentoo users - is it just the social clout? Can't you get out of the circus and do something else with your time? |
I was not involved in ruining anyone's experience.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | Also, why the hatred? |
What hatred? I am only here to remark on how you created a problem through negligence maintaining your overlay, escalated it with an unnecessarily provocative commit message (and, apparently, other provocations elsewhere), and exacerbated it further by insisting at every step that you were in the right and everyone else was wrong.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: |
What makes you remove my overlay from that list with 420 other overlays, in order to make it harder for my fellow Gentoo users to discover and use it? |
I did not remove it, but as I said above, I thought your unnecessarily provocative commit message is why it was removed. Other posts have convinced me that this was an inappropriately charitable view, and that much more was involved than one insulting commit message.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | What did I ever do to you? I try to work around you at every point. |
Have you considered that this is a problem in itself? If you are constantly fighting the flow, perhaps you are doing something wrong.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | I try to minimise all my interactions with you people, in my attempt to help fellow Gentoo users. |
Productive use of the forums generally involves interacting with people, politely.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | Why does that bother you so much? Why do you take it personally? |
I am not bothered and took nothing personally.
| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | Are Gentoo users your property and I'm infringing on that? |
To paraphrase a particularly silly lawyerly disclaimer: All Gentoo users are the property of their respective owners.
| logrusx wrote: | | Also almost all of those PR's somebody went and had to take care of him ... |
I had not read the PRs to notice that. Thank you for calling my attention to it. That does make it clearer that this bad commit message was just the end of a long line of problems.
| logrusx wrote: | | I still maintain the stated reasons for dropping his repo ... |
With the benefit of seeing how much argument the drop has caused, I see merit to this position. However, given his behavior, I am doubtful that any explanation, no matter how well explained and cited, would suffice to convince him that he was routinely in the wrong. A more thorough drop statement might have led the rest of us to discount him more quickly. Let us hope that no other overlay maintainers actively behave badly enough that a drop, with any level of explanation, is necessary. |
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logrusx
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Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2640
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| Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| Hu wrote: |
| logrusx wrote: | | I still maintain the stated reasons for dropping his repo ... |
With the benefit of seeing how much argument the drop has caused, I see merit to this position. However, given his behavior, I am doubtful that any explanation, no matter how well explained and cited, would suffice to convince him that he was routinely in the wrong. |
If things are not said in a direct way and on time, bad behaviors take roots and escalate. Sometimes some things need to be said directly without hints and hope of change. Interestingly, those are the most potent change drivers. If they don't work, nothing works. At least being direct and blunt if necessary, cuts many opportunities for objections.
Best Regards,
Georgi |
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szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3477
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| Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| logrusx wrote: |
If things are not said in a direct way and on time, bad behaviors take roots and escalate. Sometimes some things need to be said directly without hints and hope of change. Interestingly, those are the most potent change drivers. If they don't work, nothing works. At least being direct and blunt if necessary, cuts many opportunities for objections.
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Yes, definitely. It's good to see we actually agree on something after all, but man, I do not trust your judgement on what constitutes a "bad behavior".
Pietinger, thanks for your patience. I was surprised that this thread was actually reopened (and no, it wasn't by my request), but it was a good call. Letting it run its course cleared any doubts and misunderstandings. With everything that's been said so far, I kinda expect all parties involved to lose interest.
It was a wild ride, a wild ride indeed. Good job hanging there 
Anyway, I've run out of popcorn, moving on to other things...
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 9331
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| Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Let's face it, this thread was always going to happen (note that thread starter != overlay maintainer). And while some users may look at git messages, they are not used to communicate or explain ourselves to the public in general. |
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logrusx
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Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2640
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| Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: | | logrusx wrote: |
If things are not said in a direct way and on time, bad behaviors take roots and escalate. Sometimes some things need to be said directly without hints and hope of change. Interestingly, those are the most potent change drivers. If they don't work, nothing works. At least being direct and blunt if necessary, cuts many opportunities for objections.
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Yes, definitely. It's good to see we actually agree on something after all, but man, I do not trust your judgement on what constitutes a "bad behavior".
Pietinger, thanks for your patience. I was surprised that this thread was actually reopened (and no, it wasn't by my request), but it was a good call. Letting it run its course cleared any doubts and misunderstandings. With everything that's been said so far, I kinda expect all parties involved to lose interest.
It was a wild ride, a wild ride indeed. Good job hanging there ;)
Anyway, I've run out of popcorn, moving on to other things... |
It's not a subjective judgement.
Bad = unproductive and therefore undesirable.
Good behavior - leads to results, bad behavior - leads to results that were not desired. |
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stefantalpalaru
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 76
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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This overlay removal breakage is worse than I thought.
Those who added my overlay using "eselect repository enable stefantalpalaru" were actually getting Gentoo's GitHub overlay mirror ("https://github.com/gentoo-mirror/stefantalpalaru" instead of "https://github.com/stefantalpalaru/gentoo-overlay"). Yes - Gentoo core devs, in their infinite wisdom, also mirror GitHub repos on... GitHub.
Now comes the fun part: that overlay mirror stopped mirroring my repo on July 21, when it was silently deleted from the sacred list. All those users just stopped getting updates, with no error whatsoever during syncing. They're stuck on July 21, with that archived mirror and none the wiser - unless they hit an EAPI ban and come to report the problem in my issue tracker: https://github.com/stefantalpalaru/gentoo-overlay/issues/154
It's the gift that keeps on giving |
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logrusx
Advocate
Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 2640
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| Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, we know, hundreds of users... |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20581
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| Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | All those users just stopped getting updates, with no error whatsoever during syncing. They're stuck on July 21, with that archived mirror and none the wiser - unless they hit an EAPI ban and come to report the problem in my issue tracker: |
And not even one user asked about the lack of updates for 3 months? That seems odd. Or maybe the repo is focusing on "stability"?
_________________
Quis separabit? Quo animo? |
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s0ulslack1
n00b
Joined: 06 Mar 2022
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| This seems to have been handled poorly from the get go. Not to mention only 1 or 2 could maintain being professional. I see why Arch is whoopin a$$, its the community that isn't savage know it alls. |
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stefantalpalaru
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 76
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | And not even one user asked about the lack of updates for 3 months? That seems odd. |
If nothing breaks, how would they notice?
| pjp wrote: | | Or maybe the repo is focusing on "stability"? |
On the contrary. I get email notifications for upstream releases and usually bump my versions in less than 24h, which is why you see so many version bumps in my Git history: https://github.com/stefantalpalaru/gentoo-overlay/commits/master/
It sometimes takes months for the main tree to catch up with my overlay. |
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sMueggli
Guru
Joined: 03 Sep 2022
Posts: 525
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| Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| stefantalpalaru wrote: | | pjp wrote: | | And not even one user asked about the lack of updates for 3 months? That seems odd. |
If nothing breaks, how would they notice? |
For example if users get email notifications for upstream releases? This technique is also used by the world's best overlay maintainer himself. |
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pietinger
Moderator
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 5329
Location: Bavaria
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