stefantalpalaru repo

[lefsha]

What has happened? Why this repo was dropped?

I read this: https://github.com/gentoo/api-gentoo-org/commit/7c46900a7c4cd57b11091ae8327a1e855bb97762
and this: https://github.com/stefantalpalaru/gentoo-overlay/commit/4063cfd853a30971de4790c7435b26497ccdb4b5

and I am on his side! It's NOT your business to decide which repos I as user can use or not !!!

As long it is NOT an official Gentoo repo it should be AVAILABLE. Especially if you cannot! put that repo down or you are incompetent.
Don't use practices from N.Korea or Russia! They are not functional! If you don't like some one - it is your personal problem!
You are NOT in the position to insist others to like or dislike the same as you do!


This guy: David Seifert <soap@gentoo.org> must put his proud on the shelf, shut up and put repo back.

That is a known fact, that Gentoo drops the support of "old" EAPIs or ebuilds for no reason. They think people must run in front of the train
and update their systems including all packages they are using on weekly basis.

Gentoo devs even drop "old" kernels for no reasons. They are NOT aware, that some applications require that particular version. ZFS is a good example here.

Rushing to upgrade portage on daily basis brings no one further. We aren't using linux to run portage. Some one must come up with that idea.
_________________
Lefsha

[asturm]

[logrusx]

[pietinger]

It is MY decision with whom I speak and with whom I will not maintain contact because I have been insulted. Anyone who doesn't have good manners and can't express themselves well is not a conversation partner for me. And yes, that is SOLELY my decision.

[pietinger]

Moved from Portage & Programming to Gentoo Chat.
_________________
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Pietinger

[Zucca]

[pietinger]

The job of moderation is to stop things BEFORE they get really ugly. It is NOT the job to make things worse. There is a German proverb (I don't know if you can translate it):

“Don't pour more oil on the fire.”

That's why it can sometimes make sense to only address something very briefly. On the other hand, this can lead to questions remaining unanswered. I know that and that's why I pointed out the possibility of writing to me by e-mail. This offer was accepted and I had an email correspondence about this thread (very factual and respectful on both sides; it ended with an invitation to a drink). This even involved two questions:

1. Was the reaction of our Gentoo developers appropriate or an overreaction, or even an escalation?

2. Why was this thread locked immediately?

I spent a few nights thinking about whether I should explain something else in this thread and I think I owe it (but since I'm also very lazy, I'll just copy and paste from my reply emails here; I've only inserted two **). So this is my detailed opinion on both questions:

----------

You dont have seen it? It was: "before the fu**ers dropped EAPI 6 support"

[At first there was some confusion as to whether you can still use the repo at all.]

Yes, I am with you: An insult is no reason to destroy someone/something ... but I think this is not the case here ... because:

Our Gentoo developer(s) (I dont know if @soap alone or in consultation) have removed the repo from our list: overlays/repositories.xml ... but this does not prevent it from being (manually) integrated (that's why @asturm said: “No one is stopping you to continue using it”) ... it's just not as convenient (for users). So, this is for me no destroying but only a "we dont list you".

Yes, it would be a completely other situation if Gentoo had done something to completely kill this repo

----------

I dont think so. His reaction was not removing it; instead he added: "This overlay is no longer available in the official Gentoo list, because core Gentoo devs are as petty as they are incompetent."
Honestly, if someone is still stepping on the gas, then they have proven that they have no insight whatsoever.

I am pretty sure, IF he would have deleted the "fu**ers" and send a mail to our devs with a "sorry, I was frustrated, but it was not okay to insult you" THEN I think there would be no problem anymore ...

On a sidenote:

My grandpa used to say: “An insult says more about the insulter than it does about the insulted”. And he was right (as always); you immediately recognize that someone is no longer able to report objectively about something (e.g.: I am frustrated because X no longer works) and therefore has to resort to primitive solutions. It's a bit like the other saying I learned from grandpa: “Anyone who shouts makes a fool of themselves”.

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Here I have a different opinion: If someone says/does A and then a B happens from the other side, then that is not yet an escalation but a reaction/response. Only when A AND B have happened can we talk about escalation. And in this case it even looks like A was followed by a C (that's the first escalation for me) and our Gentoo developers don't do a D here (they ignore it). That would be by my definition: Gentoo developers de-escalate. But again, I'm not involved in this issue. My job was to make it clear to the PO of this thread that he can't DEMAND anything, especially not in this attitude. Yes, you can make a WISH, a request, as politely and kindly as possible. But this sense of entitlement: here I am and everyone has to do what I want, immediately leads to the reaction in the thread.

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Then I have unfortunately expressed myself misleadingly: No, if there was an action (A), and there is a counter-reaction (B), then this is NOT yet an escalation (actio/reactionem). The only thing you COULD say at this point is that the counter-reaction is exaggerated (*). But an escalation can only occur AFTER A+B has happened - as C.

*) Now the question "is removing a link" an exaggerated reaction?

My answer:

Imagine you have placed a link (from your homepage) to an article of mine. And in this article I insult you. Now you are being FORCED to advertise this insult ... by not being allowed to remove the link to my article ... what do you think?

If I hold an insult in one hand and a missing link in the other, then I know which hand weighs heavier ... and so it is clear to me that there was no overreaction.

Yes, our Gentoo developers have ‘only’ removed a link, you now have to go to the page with the insult yourself. We don't advertise to people who don't know how to behave around adults.

But again, as a moderator, I wasn't judging this one, I was judging @lefsha's initial post. This post is so wrong and has no place in our forum when someone compares a part of our Gentoo community (yes, our Gentoo developers are a part of the whole Gentoo community) to North Korea AND additionally DEMANDS something that cannot be demanded. Hint: you couldn't even DEMAND a bug fix. You can report a bug and usually developers are happy about this report because they themselves have an interest in bug-free software ... but DEMANDING ... what do you want to do when someone has retired? This sense of entitlement is unfortunately very common these days. Then I explain the following to people:

You HAVE to work in my garden for 3 hours every day ... without pay ... without food ... nothing ... you simply get nothing. I just force you to work.

Your answer would be: Are you completely crazy? I am not your slave!

Only then do some people understand that they can't demand anything here, they can only ask for something ...

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[...] maybe a fair warning before? [...]

Yes, I agree (but I dont know if there was some; I am/was not involved it the whole thing)

Yes, I would tell someone: "For me this is an insult; think about it ... and dont be surprised if I react to it, if you dont take it back."

----------

I have unlocked this thread again. But I don't think I will change my mind about the reaction of our Gentoo developers. On the contrary, I would even go one step further and ask if they are not obliged to do so? Do we really want to link to someone who insults us? My opinion on the initial post will probably not change either.
_________________
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/User:Pietinger

[pingtoo]

pietinger.

Fantastic post, will thought and will explained. Really appreciated.

[logrusx]

Pietinger, I think our developer should not take offense by some punk kid's language. I think it's pathetic they resorted to retaliation. Maybe I should speak in singular form here and not address all of them, but I'm not sure. The fact that somebody went to check the git log to find offense there is even more pathetic. That's what I wanted to say when you locked the thread.

Your post on the other hand is incomprehensible. I tried to read it but it's long, incoherent, scattered.

Best Regards,
Georgi

[asturm]

Needless to say, interactions with this individual are going back much further than their recent utterances on their isolated overlay. It is everyone's guess what tone they struck on average.

[logrusx]

I think what happens outside of Gentoo should not move even a single dust particle inside Gentoo and be completely disregarded.

Best Regards,
Georgi

[asturm]

[Ralphred]

[logrusx]

[logrusx]

[Juippisi]

[logrusx]

I do not discuss his behavior here. If it was communication and technical issues, it should have been stated so. And perhaps the overlay should have been removed long ago. For the right reasons.

Which would have shut that person's mouth for good and avoided threads like the present one.

Best Regards,
Georgi

[Zucca]

To put this very simply:

For a repo to be included in the list of repos, it needs to meet some requirements. Among those requirements there is obviously a requirement for the repo maintainer to be able to respond and fix the bugs within the repo and establish a way to communicate with gentoo staff.
Based on what I've read, this particular repo's owner did not meet the requirements. Especially the communication part. (I don't consider bashing others as proper communication).

Are we done here? Please?
_________________
..: Zucca :..

[sMueggli]

[logrusx]

[stefantalpalaru]

> Likewise, it is SOLELY the decision of Gentoo developers with whom they want to keep in touch and with whom not.

Yes, of course, but this is about harming Gentoo users just because some of you hate me.

Having my overlay in the list of overlays that get basic checks for the frequent breakage - that you yourselves cause with such abandon - was generating email notifications allowing me to quickly fix the problems. You can surely understand why that was good for Gentoo users.

> Nobody can demand free work from me.

Not getting paid is no excuse for incompetence. If you cannot do that free work properly, go away and let someone more capable volunteer in your place.

Do not try to stifle criticism of you free work, so you can keep on half-arsing it. Get better at helping the users you are trying to help, or stop making their lives harder.

> If you are unhappy with the free work of others, then work for yourself

We Gentoo users are forced to do just that. Virtually every one of us becomes a package maintainer, sooner of later, because what core devs are doing is either not enough, low quality or outright harmful.

> Yes, it would be a completely other situation if Gentoo had done something to completely kill this repo

I'm sure you would, if you could, just like you got me banned from r/linux for daring to politely criticise Gentoo during one of your masturbatory AMAs. You also banned me from r/Gentoo, for shits and giggles...

> Gentoo developers de-escalate.

Like when they went over their heads to avoid accepting my contributions? They even claimed I cannot be a proxy maintainer, at a time I was actually proxy maintaining an official package. No wonder you are so viscerally opposed to any form of criticism.

https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/pull/9357

https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/pull/9358

https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/pull/9359

https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/pull/9360

> My job was to make it clear to the PO of this thread that he can't DEMAND anything, especially not in this attitude. Yes, you can make a WISH, a request, as politely and kindly as possible. But this sense of entitlement: here I am and everyone has to do what I want, immediately leads to the reaction in the thread.

You really don't think you have any responsibility to Gentoo users? I'm horrified every time I break backwards compatibility somewhere, thinking about all those people whose time I'm wasting, but to you it's just another Monday, isn't it?

Do you even know how many ebuilds, over hundreds of overlays, you break by dropping EAPI support? Do you even care?

Are overlay maintainers as insignificant as regular Gentoo users, to you? Is our time just as worthless as to be wasted on a whim? That waste of time, to me, is a much bigger insult than any naughty word you may come up with.

Not only do you not care about our precious time, but you expect us mortals to be thankful for that "free work" that is actively harming us. What was your grandpa saying about this type of entitlement?

> you couldn't even DEMAND a bug fix

No, of course not. We can humbly report the bug and hope that it also affects a core dev who, by some miracle, manages to solve it in a few days, or a few months, or a few years...

Thus is the life of a Gentoo user - and the main reason why we end up fixing our own problems in our own overlays, instead of relying on your "free work".

> This sense of entitlement is unfortunately very common these days.

Damn peasants, not being thankful for the scraps that our masters are throwing our way... The sheer gall of it...

> Needless to say, interactions with this individual are going back much further than their recent utterances on their isolated overlay. It is everyone's guess what tone they struck on average.

You worry about my tone. I worry about the next hours I'm going to waste because you broke my ebuilds for no good reason.

> If it was communication and technical issues, it should have been stated so. And perhaps the overlay should have been removed long ago. For the right reasons.

There are no right reasons and all communication was automated, through bug reports - which were all promptly addressed and marked as fixed.
No Gentoo core dev had to lower himself to deal with a horrible overlay maintainer like me. It was all nice and clean, benefitting all overlay users.

> For a repo to be included in the list of repos, it needs to meet some requirements. Among those requirements there is obviously a requirement for the repo maintainer to be able to respond and fix the bugs within the repo and establish a way to communicate with gentoo staff.
> Based on what I've read, this particular repo's owner did not meet the requirements.

Wrong, as usual. But hey, it's free work and we are not entitled to criticise it, right?

> Are we done here? Please?

We will be done when each and every Gentoo ebuild and eclass will be forked in my overlay, because you found a way to break it. Only then will you realise that you are unfit for the job that you are doing.

[logrusx]

Well, thank you for making it obvious why they should have dropped your repo and all communication with you a long time ago.

Best Regards,
Georgi

[Zucca]

Without knowing all the details, I can't help but feel like it's almost like stefantalpalaru is against practically every other Gentoo contributor/member/developer.

The biggest disagreement seems to boil down to which EAPIs are supported and which are not.

I may have worthless wishes of some kind of settlement and end of arguing...
_________________
..: Zucca :..

[asturm]

Q.E.D.

[pietinger]