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pa4wdh
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 12:19 pm    Post subject: Lxqt now depends on wayland :-( Alternatives? Reply with quote

Hi All,

For quite some years i've been using lxqt which was a logical successor to lxde i used before that. My last sync came with the unpleasant surprise that lxqt now depend on some kde components, and they seem to have a hard dependencies on qt6 with the wayland flag set. Since i want X11 and not wayland this end my lxqt use.

The big question is: What do i use instead? I hope you can advice me :)

What i want/need from a "desktop" is very minimal:
- No icons or junk on the background (i'm using xplanet for a fancy backdrop), i do want my application menu when i right-click my desktop
- I like a two-panel setup, one on the top with the application meny, some icons for often used applications, desktop switcher and some basic things like calendar, date/time, cpu load graph, etc.. The second one only has a window-list (as lxqt calls it) and a keyboard layout switch
- Making madia keys on a keyboard work also seems to be a desktop function these days, having that would be a nice-to-have

For the rest, it needs to be small, quick, without any 3d stuff effects, without any window manager (i'm using openbox), file manager (don't need those, i'll use a terminal), or a terminal which comes with the desktop (i'm using sakura).

Do you have any suggestions?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Lxqt now depends on wayland :-( Alternatives? Reply with quote

pa4wdh wrote:
The big question is: What do i use instead?

Um, LXQt? What gets enabled is Wayland code in libraries, it doesn't mean that you have to actually run a Wayland compositor. As far as I now, you'd still be able to use the X server and X11 applications as usual.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no impact on your X11 runtime experience whatsoever.
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pa4wdh
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this might actually be an ebuild bug. The lxqt release notes still note wayland as experimental, which i think should mean it should be completely removable. But it's not lxqt itself, some kde parts get pulled in, for example:
Code:
The following USE changes are necessary to proceed:
 (see "package.use" in the portage(5) man page for more details)
# required by dev-qt/qtwayland-6.7.3-r1::gentoo
# required by kde-plasma/layer-shell-qt-6.1.5::gentoo
# required by lxqt-base/lxqt-notificationd-2.0.1::gentoo
# required by lxqt-base/lxqt-meta-2.0.0::gentoo
# required by @selected
# required by @world (argument)
>=dev-qt/qtbase-6.7.3-r2 wayland
# required by dev-qt/qtbase-6.7.3-r2::gentoo[gtk,gui,widgets]
# required by kde-frameworks/breeze-icons-6.7.0::gentoo
# required by lxqt-base/lxqt-meta-2.0.0::gentoo
# required by @selected
# required by @world (argument)
>=x11-libs/gtk+-3.24.41-r1 wayland
# required by x11-libs/gtk+-3.24.41-r1::gentoo[wayland]
# required by media-libs/libcanberra-0.30-r7::gentoo[gtk3]
# required by x11-terms/qterminal-2.0.1-r1::gentoo
# required by lxqt-base/lxqt-meta-2.0.0::gentoo[terminal]
# required by @selected
# required by @world (argument)
>=media-libs/mesa-24.2.6-r2 wayland

I'm now running the update excluding "lxqt-base/* dev-util/lxqt-build-tools x11-themes/lxqt-themes".

However, the project is clearly heading a way i'm not prepared to go, with wayland as well as it's KDE dependencies, so it's better to search for an alternative now.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you stipulate clearly why you care about LXQt dependencies when they contain "kde" in their category more than if it was another library? Or do you want to have LXQt developers do everything on their own, therefore duplicating efforts already done elsewhere, what is otherwise called NIH syndrome? Especially, as LXQt is Qt-based, it would seem to be making a lot of sense to make use of Qt-extending frameworks that just so happen to be developed by KDE.

What damage, you think, is done if there are Wayland related dependencies installed on your system? Is it so bad that you wouldn't even try out the latest version of LXQt and see if it works for you, even if still just using an X11 LXQt session?

pa4wdh wrote:
The big question is: What do i use instead? I hope you can advice me :)

Don't get me wrong - others will certainly chime in here and give you recommendations, and you shall use whatever you see fit. But when spending time on such a change it should at least not come from false assumptions.
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pa4wdh
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I care for that because i want a desktop that is minimal, fast and lightweight, all those words disappear when KDE gets involved. Which is also demonstrated here, pulling in wayland dependencies while i'm not using wayland. During the previous update i could hold it back by disabling the "desktop-portal", but now it's even unconditional for basic components like the panel.

Sure, LXQt developers may make any decision they want, and as long as i'm not personally involved in their project there's no way i can hold them back. Since i'm not willing to invest that effort, i'm opting for the other option: Search for an alternative, and that's what's this topic is about.

Thanks for challenging my assumptions, but this gives me an indication of where they are heading with the project, and even with the tiny bits i can see now i don't like it.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pa4wdh wrote:
I care for that because i want a desktop that is minimal, fast and lightweight, all those words disappear when KDE gets involved. Which is also demonstrated here, pulling in wayland dependencies while i'm not using wayland.

If you are seriously storage space constrained that you can not allow a handful of MBs in addition to your install, then this would be on top of your mind. Regarding runtime speed and lightweightedness, no, that's not demonstrated here, that's just prejudice. ;)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayland libraries/headers are really tiny... it'd be low on my list of priorities when it comes to saving space -- esp. if I'm using a DE suite (even a lightweight one). If pulled, qtwayland is a bit bigger but we made it a lot smaller by making the compositor bits optional recently

If *really* want ultra minimalism I'd give up on DEs and handpick the things you want (wayland libs being the main "problem" is a odd reason to give them up though) -- of course it's going to be more work for things to be nice together.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since i'm using using only a very small part of what would be called a full featured desktop, i'm now trying to find out if i can only find a replacement for the panel because that's basically the only thing i'm really using.
I started testing with fbpanel and except for that i didn't find how to change the panel's color it seems fulfill a big part of what i need.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could go back to LXDE, it still works but there are some minor bugs that won't get fixed.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
pa4wdh wrote:
I care for that because i want a desktop that is minimal, fast and lightweight, all those words disappear when KDE gets involved. Which is also demonstrated here, pulling in wayland dependencies while i'm not using wayland.

If you are seriously storage space constrained that you can not allow a handful of MBs in addition to your install, then this would be on top of your mind. Regarding runtime speed and lightweightedness, no, that's not demonstrated here, that's just prejudice. ;)


I agree with you and with most of what is said here about the inclusion of a few wayland or kde libraries being innocuous. But I have to nitpick out that attitude that we should stop caring about a handful of MBs getting pulled in. The problem -- if there is one -- is not a handful of MBs of storage. The problem would be the hundreds of thousands of lines of added code.

I use environments (portage/env/* and portage/package.env/*) to keep the source code for some categories around for perusal. So for example if I want to know a bit about gdm's use of dbus I can quickly pop into /usr/src/debug/gnome-base/gdm/gdm-45.0.1-r2/gdm-45.0.1/daemon/gdm-dbus-util.c and look around. If even simple software like lxqt components start depending on a large set of libraries and utililities and daemons which are interconnected, as they usually are, in an intricate web then it becomes impossible to read the code for that supposedly simple library and understand what is going on.

When someone complains about the software no longer being simple maybe we should avoid dismissing them with "if you are seriously storage space constrained..." as if they only have a basis for concern when their disk fills up. Maybe their concern is with the complexity itself. Maybe, like me, they actually try to read the code!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Few wild ones to try out:... I haven't tried either one. I'm on the other side - I try to remove all X11 stuff from my setups, but those two are interesting ones none the less.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2024 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just run openbox (or similar) and tint2 (or another X panel). Add whatever few other "de" apps you might need.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pa4wdh wrote:
I think this might actually be an ebuild bug. The lxqt release notes still note wayland as experimental, which i think should mean it should be completely removable. But it's not lxqt itself, some kde parts get pulled in, for example:
Code:
The following USE changes are necessary to proceed:
 (see "package.use" in the portage(5) man page for more details)
# required by dev-qt/qtwayland-6.7.3-r1::gentoo
# required by kde-plasma/layer-shell-qt-6.1.5::gentoo
# required by lxqt-base/lxqt-notificationd-2.0.1::gentoo
# required by lxqt-base/lxqt-meta-2.0.0::gentoo
# required by @selected
# required by @world (argument)
>=dev-qt/qtbase-6.7.3-r2 wayland
# required by dev-qt/qtbase-6.7.3-r2::gentoo[gtk,gui,widgets]
# required by kde-frameworks/breeze-icons-6.7.0::gentoo
# required by lxqt-base/lxqt-meta-2.0.0::gentoo
# required by @selected
# required by @world (argument)
>=x11-libs/gtk+-3.24.41-r1 wayland
# required by x11-libs/gtk+-3.24.41-r1::gentoo[wayland]
# required by media-libs/libcanberra-0.30-r7::gentoo[gtk3]
# required by x11-terms/qterminal-2.0.1-r1::gentoo
# required by lxqt-base/lxqt-meta-2.0.0::gentoo[terminal]
# required by @selected
# required by @world (argument)
>=media-libs/mesa-24.2.6-r2 wayland

.


The last one is strange. I happen to run gtk+3[-wayland] even using full KDE
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lxqt-base/lxqt-notificationd- unconditionally pulls in layer-shell, it's that way coming from lxqt developers.
They shouldn't have pulled it in unconditionally, but they did.

2 choices, use lxqt with pulling in wayland bits OR choose another option, I can't recommend any current DE's as they all are looking at wayland
so you would roll your own DE.

Once one piece of the chain needs wayland, then lots of other packages need it, like gtk or mesa.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I would consider is not to instal lxqt-meta, and see if you can pick and choose only the parts that you need. For instance, you have said you do not need qterminal, do you need notification daemon ?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The problem -- if there is one -- is not a handful of MBs of storage. The problem would be the hundreds of thousands of lines of added code.

Thanks, you explained my point very well, better than i could have done.

Thanks for all the suggestions for Trinity, ede, tint2 (i'm already using openbox), checking them out will take some time :). Glad to see there are options to keep things minimal.

Quote:
What I would consider is not to instal lxqt-meta, and see if you can pick and choose only the parts that you need. For instance, you have said you do not need qterminal, do you need notification daemon ?

I've tried that. While i could live without it's terminal and notification daemon, the thing i actually want is the panel(s) and the dependency seems to be there too.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
Few wild ones to try out:... I haven't tried either one. I'm on the other side - I try to remove all X11 stuff from my setups, but those two are interesting ones none the less.
Any ebuild for ede?

Thks 4 ur attention, interest & support.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
Few wild ones to try out:... I haven't tried either one. I'm on the other side - I try to remove all X11 stuff from my setups, but those two are interesting ones none the less.

Just installed overlay...
Although not tested here, sounds like a big app stack here with USE=-* in make.conf:
Code:
emerge -p trinity-base/kdesktop
[ebuild  N    #] trinity-base/kdesktop-14.1.2  USE="-hwlib -pam -xscreensaver"
[ebuild  N    #]  trinity-base/konqueror-14.1.2  USE="-java"
[ebuild  N    #]   trinity-base/kcontrol-14.1.2  USE="-hwlib -ieee1394 -logitech-mouse -samba -svg -xrandr"
[ebuild  N    #]    trinity-base/kicker-14.1.2  USE="-hwlib -xcomposite"
[ebuild  N    #]     trinity-base/kmenuedit-14.1.2
[ebuild  N    #]     dev-libs/dbus-tqt-14.1.2
[ebuild  N    #]    trinity-base/tdesu-14.1.2  USE="-sudo"
[ebuild  N    #]    trinity-base/khotkeys-14.1.2  USE="-arts"
[ebuild  N    #]    trinity-base/khelpcenter-14.1.2
[ebuild  N    #]    trinity-base/kcminit-14.1.2
[ebuild  N    #]   trinity-base/tdebase-tdeioslaves-14.1.2  USE="-hwlib -ldap -openexr -samba -sasl -sftp"
[ebuild  N    #]    trinity-base/tdeeject-14.1.2
[ebuild  N    #]   trinity-base/kfind-14.1.2
[ebuild  N    #]  trinity-base/kcheckpass-14.1.2  USE="(pam)"
[nomerge       ] trinity-base/kdesktop-14.1.2  USE="-hwlib -pam -xscreensaver"
[nomerge       ]  trinity-base/kcontrol-14.1.2  USE="-hwlib -ieee1394 -logitech-mouse -samba -svg -xrandr"
[ebuild  N    #]   trinity-base/tdebase-data-14.1.2
[ebuild  N    #]  trinity-base/kdialog-14.1.2
[ebuild  N    #]  trinity-base/libkonq-14.1.2  USE="-arts"
[ebuild  N    #]   trinity-base/tdelibs-14.1.2  USE="-alsa -arts (-cryptsetup) -cups -debug -elficons -elogind -fam -hwlib -idn -jpeg2k -lua -lzma -malloc -networkmanager -openexr -pcre -pcsc-lite -pkcs11 -shm -spell -ssl -sudo -svg -systemd -tiff -udevil -udisks -upower -utempter -xcomposite -xrandr -zeroconf"
[ebuild  N    #]    dev-libs/dbus-1-tqt-14.1.2
[ebuild  N    #]     dev-tqt/tqtinterface-14.1.2  USE="-opengl"
[ebuild  N    #]      dev-tqt/tqt-14.1.2  USE="-cups -debug -doc -examples -firebird -fontconfig -glib -hiddenvisibility -imext -ipv6 -mariadb -mng -mysql -nas -nis -opengl -postgres -sqlite -styles -tablet -xinerama -xrandr"
[ebuild  N    #]      trinity-base/trinity-cmake-14.1.2
[nomerge       ] trinity-base/khelpcenter-14.1.2
[ebuild  N     ]  www-misc/htdig-3.2.0_beta6-r5  USE="-ssl"
[nomerge       ] trinity-base/kcheckpass-14.1.2  USE="(pam)"
[ebuild  N    #]  trinity-base/tdebase-pam-7  USE="-elogind"
Thks 4 ur attention, interest & support
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainBlood wrote:
Although not tested here, sounds like a big app stack here
Well, it is a full DE, but mostly using code developed for "KDE 3.5" era machines. So I would guess it's quite lightweight to run on modern machines.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Zucca,
By big app stack I actually meant with numerous packages.
Could be lightweight from ram usage perspective...

I"m not sure I want to spend time trying it.

I haven't yet found anything better than LXDE stack with 140 Mb ram usage after login.

Thks 4 ur attention, interest & support.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not without some irony that KDE went through the huge trouble of splitting up the huge monolithic kdelibs, that any KDE desktop and application package had to depend on, into multiple dozens of tiny frameworks libraries, to the benefit of the wider Qt ecosystem being able to pick those smaller pieces they can greatly benefit from, only for people to come back and recommend ye big old monolith library dependent KDE-3 offspring.

"Old" is not the same as minimal, is not the same as lightweight or fast.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
It's not without some irony that KDE went through the huge trouble of splitting up the huge monolithic kdelibs, that any KDE desktop and application package had to depend on, into multiple dozens of tiny frameworks libraries, to the benefit of the wider Qt ecosystem being able to pick those smaller pieces they can greatly benefit from, only for people to come back and recommend ye big old monolith library dependent KDE-3 offspring.
Can't help a feeling that the stack of kde-apps, frameworks, plasma and Qt was mostly shuffling rather than adding value. It doesn't seem to have helped - the rate of appearance of new KDE applications has shrunk to a trickle, and several useful ones from KDE 3 never got ported to 4. AFAICT a lot of new applications plug into Qt rather than KDE.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But you're aware what got this thread started?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2024 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sitquietly wrote:


I agree with you and with most of what is said here about the inclusion of a few wayland or kde libraries being innocuous. But I have to nitpick out that attitude that we should stop caring about a handful of MBs getting pulled in. The problem -- if there is one -- is not a handful of MBs of storage. The problem would be the hundreds of thousands of lines of added code.

I use environments (portage/env/* and portage/package.env/*) to keep the source code for some categories around for perusal. So for example if I want to know a bit about gdm's use of dbus I can quickly pop into /usr/src/debug/gnome-base/gdm/gdm-45.0.1-r2/gdm-45.0.1/daemon/gdm-dbus-util.c and look around. If even simple software like lxqt components start depending on a large set of libraries and utililities and daemons which are interconnected, as they usually are, in an intricate web then it becomes impossible to read the code for that supposedly simple library and understand what is going on.

When someone complains about the software no longer being simple maybe we should avoid dismissing them with "if you are seriously storage space constrained..." as if they only have a basis for concern when their disk fills up. Maybe their concern is with the complexity itself. Maybe, like me, they actually try to read the code!


This is the main downside and disappointment of the modern development of the userspace - growth of spaghetti-like interdependencies. It is a bit ironic that modern programming practices fault early languages for encouraging spaghetti code, while at the library level it propagates into OS architecture (and not only). In this sense wayland/X situation is less bad, switching technologies does require coexistence. I am more concerned by the erosion of the idea that system should be layered - kernel, system services (including display services), window management/decoration and applications and moving to the state where everything in userspace seems to be trying to do everything. At least here in Gentoo/Linux people are selected who are not after 'it just works, I do not care how', but who like to understand how their systems function.

It is also a fact that modern coding encourages extensive external library use, which more often than not is not done judiciously. I was shocked when the latest kspectacle came out
with the dependence on opecv (1.5 Gb library which take good part of an hour to compile on a laptop) with additional numpy dependence.
I looked what for - for a basic 2D convolution with a Gaussian window for a rarely used effect. Which can be coded in less than 100 lines in place, or the code copied from internet in any language in couple of clicks.

And I don't want even to count how many copies of chromium do I carry and run :)
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