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Spanik
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2025 11:58 am    Post subject: using 2 independent mice at the same time? Reply with quote

Is it possible to use 2 mice at the same in a way they have 2 pointers? Strange question perhaps but I'd like to try this as I think it could be handy when working with 2 screens. Like when you have on one screen a drawing where you need to take measurements in app A and then on the other screen another app B where you are using those measurements. I'm drawing a 3D model from old scanned plans and this would avoid a lot of moving around with the mouse. Certainly with large screens.

I just tried to connect 2 mice but they both control the same pointer. So that doesn't help.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

I do not think that is possible, never heard of multiple mouse pointer, Linux, Windows, Mac or other.

You'll have probably to work around that, depending on your desktop environment, maybe there would be a cool feature doing the «teleportation» of your mouse icon in the middle of another window while hiting some shortcut.

Beside that, I do not see how that would be possible.

Regards,
GASPARD DE RENEFORT Kévin
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanik, here you go:

Code:
emerge --oneshot x11-apps/xinput


https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4012352/linux-dual-mice-multiple-mice-with-multiple-mouse-pointers


Look at answer 27 (the part with xinput).


Regards,

Gatsby
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nearly 20 years ago, after Xorg branched off of XFree86, there was an experimental Xorg module for having multiple independent pointers on screen. Maybe it vanished from the Internet or I just can't remember enough to find it, but I found this:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Multi-pointer_X

and this:

https://ao2.it/en/blog/2010/01/19/poor-mans-multi-touch-using-multiple-mice-xorg

There was a demonstration how two people play tic-tac-toe using two different mice with independent pointers.

Best Regards,
Georgi
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My bad then, happy to learn each day, this seems possible :).

Regards,
GASPARD DE RENEFORT Kévin
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2025 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

logrusx wrote:
Nearly 20 years ago, after Xorg branched off of XFree86, there was an experimental Xorg module for having multiple independent pointers on screen. Maybe it vanished from the Internet or I just can't remember enough to find it, but I found this:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Multi-pointer_X

and this:

https://ao2.it/en/blog/2010/01/19/poor-mans-multi-touch-using-multiple-mice-xorg

There was a demonstration how two people play tic-tac-toe using two different mice with independent pointers.

Best Regards,
Georgi


Nice! I know what to do this weekend :) I'll let you know where this ends.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatsby wrote:
Spanik, here you go:

Code:
emerge --oneshot x11-apps/xinput


https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4012352/linux-dual-mice-multiple-mice-with-multiple-mouse-pointers


Look at answer 27 (the part with xinput).


Regards,

Gatsby


Tried it and got strange results. Just a recap of what I did.

1: xinput with just my keyboard and mouse I always use:
Code:
~ $ xinput
⎡ Virtual core pointer                          id=2    [master pointer  (3)]
⎜   ↳ Virtual core XTEST pointer                id=4    [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ HID 04b4:0033                             id=9    [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ HID 0557:2419                             id=11   [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎣ Virtual core keyboard                         id=3    [master keyboard (2)]
    ↳ Virtual core XTEST keyboard               id=5    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Power Button                              id=6    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Power Button                              id=7    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Lite-On Technology Corp. HP Basic USB Keyboard    id=8    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ HID 0557:2419


2: made the new master
Code:
~ $ xinput create-master "usb_mouse"
~ $ xinput
⎡ Virtual core pointer                          id=2    [master pointer  (3)]
⎜   ↳ Virtual core XTEST pointer                id=4    [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ HID 04b4:0033                             id=9    [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ HID 0557:2419                             id=11   [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎣ Virtual core keyboard                         id=3    [master keyboard (2)]
    ↳ Virtual core XTEST keyboard               id=5    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Power Button                              id=6    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Power Button                              id=7    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Lite-On Technology Corp. HP Basic USB Keyboard    id=8    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ HID 0557:2419                             id=10   [slave  keyboard (3)]
⎡ usb_mouse pointer                             id=12   [master pointer  (13)]
⎜   ↳ usb_mouse XTEST pointer                   id=14   [slave  pointer  (12)]
⎣ usb_mouse keyboard                            id=13   [master keyboard (12)]
    ↳ usb_mouse XTEST keyboard                  id=15   [slave  keyboard (13)]


At this point I get another mouse pointer and text cursor in the middle of the screen. They flicker a bit when I move the (original) mouse.

3: I plug in a Logitech USB mouse. I now can move the mouse pointer with both mice, the first (cabled) and the second one (USB wireless)

4: xinput again to check on the ID's
Code:
xinput
⎡ Virtual core pointer                          id=2    [master pointer  (3)]
⎜   ↳ Virtual core XTEST pointer                id=4    [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ HID 04b4:0033                             id=9    [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ HID 0557:2419                             id=11   [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ Logitech USB Receiver Mouse               id=18   [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ Logitech USB Receiver Consumer Control    id=19   [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎣ Virtual core keyboard                         id=3    [master keyboard (2)]
    ↳ Virtual core XTEST keyboard               id=5    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Power Button                              id=6    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Power Button                              id=7    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Lite-On Technology Corp. HP Basic USB Keyboard    id=8    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ HID 0557:2419                             id=10   [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Logitech USB Receiver System Control      id=16   [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Logitech USB Receiver                     id=17   [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Logitech USB Receiver Consumer Control    id=20   [slave  keyboard (3)]
⎡ usb_mouse pointer                             id=12   [master pointer  (13)]
⎜   ↳ usb_mouse XTEST pointer                   id=14   [slave  pointer  (12)]
⎣ usb_mouse keyboard                            id=13   [master keyboard (12)]
    ↳ usb_mouse XTEST keyboard                  id=15   [slave  keyboard (13)]


Now it looks as if the second USB mouse is attached to the master keyboard. And indeed I have strange things happening if I click with the first mouse to activate another window. Sometimes I loose the keyboard and have to click a bit with each mouse to get it active again.

The next step in the link is:
Code:
Now you just need to reattach one of your mice to the new master xinput reattach "mouse id" "new master id".


Do I get it right that I now need to attach "id=16" to "id=12"? I'm not sure and the rest of the explanation doesn't inspire confidence. The first time I did "xinput remove-master 12" X just crashed.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanik wrote:
Gatsby wrote:
Spanik, here you go:

Code:
emerge --oneshot x11-apps/xinput


https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4012352/linux-dual-mice-multiple-mice-with-multiple-mouse-pointers


Look at answer 27 (the part with xinput).


Regards,

Gatsby


Tried it and got strange results. Just a recap of what I did.


It seems to me that has never have been a real solution but a hack that relied on bugs, side effects or something not quite functioning as intended.

Best Regards,
Georgi
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanik wrote:


The next step in the link is:
Code:
Now you just need to reattach one of your mice to the new master xinput reattach "mouse id" "new master id".

Do I get it right that I now need to attach "id=16" to "id=12"? I'm not sure and the rest of the explanation doesn't inspire confidence. The first time I did "xinput remove-master 12" X just crashed.

Yes, it would be
Code:
xinput reattach <id of one of your mouse devices> 12


Unfortunately xinput seems to not to work so well with recent xorg-server versions, as removing the new master resulted in terminating X here as well.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

logrusx wrote:
It seems to me that has never have been a real solution but a hack that relied on bugs, side effects or something not quite functioning as intended.

It is basically the same as your proposal: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Multi-pointer_X
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatsby wrote:
logrusx wrote:
It seems to me that has never have been a real solution but a hack that relied on bugs, side effects or something not quite functioning as intended.

It is basically the same as your proposal: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Multi-pointer_X


My memory was something existed explicitly for that purpose. This is not my proposal but what I found trying to dig for that memory. After all it was nearly 20 years ago, I can't rely neither on my memory, not on the Internet. Back then I wasn't interested in such stuff and just noted the idea and the fact that implementation existed. I don't remember any details aside from the video where they demonstrated two players playing tic-tac-toe with two different pointers. And as I said in my original post, it was a module for Xorg, shortly after it got split from XFree86 and refactored to be modular. That's why I remember the time frame. The Internet on the other hand does not guarantee 20 y.o. stuff would still exist, neither it being easily found if it existed.

Best Regards,
Georgi
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do both pointers have to be on the same screen, or are you looking for full multi-seat? I haven't heard of anyone actually using a multi-seat setup in at least 10 years, so I'm not actually sure if wayland compositors support it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bunder wrote:
Do both pointers have to be on the same screen, or are you looking for full multi-seat? I haven't heard of anyone actually using a multi-seat setup in at least 10 years, so I'm not actually sure if wayland compositors support it.


No, the idea is to use them each at his own screen. But they should not or do not have to be bound to a screen each. My goal was to have 2 screens, an full screen application on each and then a mouse on each so I don't have to move the mouse over from one screen to the other.

But no big deal if it isn't supported or takes more work to get it working than moving the mouse...
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanik wrote:
My goal was to have 2 screens, an full screen application on each and then a mouse on each so I don't have to move the mouse over from one screen to the other.


But then you have to move your hand from one device to the other. I had shoulder problems from having to move my hand from kbd to mouse and back, the numeric keyboard being in-between. I had to use the mouse with the left hand for quite a while. Not only because it relieved my right hand but also because there's no numeric keyboard on the left. I'm very careful about that since then. It's worth considering that part.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally love the idea of multipointer gestures.
Feels like something that could really take of in VR, but considering I literally have 4 pointer interfaces connected to a single X-server (track point, stylus and 2 touch pads), and I know a bunch of people who use mice with their laptops that already have touchpads built in, working with both hands might not be that far-fetched anymore, even using only the hardware that is already popular.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2025 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

logrusx wrote:
Spanik wrote:
My goal was to have 2 screens, an full screen application on each and then a mouse on each so I don't have to move the mouse over from one screen to the other.


But then you have to move your hand from one device to the other. I had shoulder problems from having to move my hand from kbd to mouse and back, the numeric keyboard being in-between. I had to use the mouse with the left hand for quite a while. Not only because it relieved my right hand but also because there's no numeric keyboard on the left. I'm very careful about that since then. It's worth considering that part.

Best Regards,
Georgi


I use my right hand for the mouse, but at the office it is set for "right hand use" and at home for "left hand use" in order to use different fingers. Found that it really helped to reduce pain in my index. I regulary have 2 mice on my mousepad. One for the office administrative laptop and another one for the technical laptop. So switching mice isn't new to me (*). Only now I'd like it to happen on the same pc.

(*) neither is switching keyboards after playing the pipe organ for a couple of decades ;)

szatox wrote:
I personally love the idea of multipointer gestures.
Feels like something that could really take of in VR, but considering I literally have 4 pointer interfaces connected to a single X-server (track point, stylus and 2 touch pads), and I know a bunch of people who use mice with their laptops that already have touchpads built in, working with both hands might not be that far-fetched anymore, even using only the hardware that is already popular.


I really don't like touchpads. When typing they always make the cursor go places where I do not want it to go and I then keep typing and writing gibberish. I always disable the touchpad when I plug in a mouse. These days you can even set that automatically in windows, I wish linux would let you do it as well.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2025 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'm not exactly a fan of touchpads either; I mostly use a stylus those days. The point was that basically every laptop comes equipped with one AND many people prefer to use a mouse instead, so it's no longer strange to have multiple controllers connected to a single machine at the same time... And having multiple pointers working with those controllers would be quite in line with my sig :lol:
Having multiple keyboards opens new possibilities too, even though current trends are all about doing it over the internet. Unlike good, old times where every single game console would come with 2 sets of controllers.

> but at the office it is set for "right hand use" and at home for "left hand use" in order to use different fingers
Having 2 different mappings sounds confusing, but I do understand the power of small changes to the environment. I've been using the "office" mouse with my weak hand to stop bending my back sideways from leaning on my weak arm. Took stunning 0 effort, and did a pretty good job fixing my posture.
We're getting off topic though, and while I am not in a dire need of multiple pointers right now, I do want to see how it goes. So, if you manage to do any experiments, let us know.
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