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xorader
n00b
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 9
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 Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| taskara wrote: | I would like to option to build a system with 2.6 headers and I'd also like a 2.6 kernel on the livecd, so that my linux software raid intel sata drives array and external usb hdd are detected correctly (as scsi disks and without slow, segfaulting and corrupting data)
so far only experimental kernel 28th Feb livecd works correctly.
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i'm fully agree with it ! i like gentoo-2004.0-x86-20040128.iso,
not gentoo-2004.0-x86-20040204.iso
(my intel ich5 Seagate SATA freeze on 2.4.24-xfs-r0  ) |
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Snappi
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| wouldn't work on my laptop. I get the option screen. but than it turns black. |
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taskara
Advocate
Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 3763
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Snappi wrote: | | wouldn't work on my laptop. I get the option screen. but than it turns black. |
try options like "acpi=off", or "noapic"
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darkcoder
Apprentice
Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 253
Location: Lynchburg, VA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| HuangBo wrote: |
That's from a developer's or computer fan's view.
For me:
1. bsd style init scripts: I don't know how it works different.
2. portage tree: well, I appreciate it, but I just enjoy it as a "Program Installer", no more than that. Thanks for the convenience.
3. lsb support: I don't know what it is... But I guess it must be something fine.
4. fully customisable: I agree. And I just need what I need. I don't want server stuff. I don't want some insane compile options. I don't want some **% better performance. I just want something stable and better than windoz.
5. packages & libraries: I don't care. They work fine. That's the developer's job not to put gabbages into my system. I just leave the annoyance to them. Thanks again.
6. Bleeding edge applications: I'll try some. I'll explain more later. What I really want is get my Notebook work. All the hardware. Mine is Sony SRX-55C, some SRX-** series. And now I have found out all the kernel options. So I decided to switch to Gentoo and throw my Windoz into trash bin.
02/11/2004 |
Sounds like a user from the MS World. Well if you prefer the easier Windows XP installation, but pain in the ass activation mechanism they use ( just ask any technician or ISP employee about how it sucks) then it's a free world and you can go that way. 
While there are a lot of things that can be improved on Linux (as also on Windows and Macs) this is a work that must be done joning effors. Things that need to improve on Linux overal:
1. Centralized DE Widgets styles and selection. Example, basic widget styles like Plastik, Keramik, Nuvola, Ximian, available for all DE's and a change in one of them would apply a consistent look on others. Advantage: No more Keramik KDE with basic Gnome GUI Gimp or X-Chat.
2. Different projects that share same goals should join forces. That would make a more standard, streamline (not bloated) installation that will take less HD space. Advantage: Not having both xine and mplayer because your video player use xine as backend, and your browser play movies better with mplayer-plugin.
3. An standard intallation mecanism (preferable with GUI) for software that do not come as part of a distribution. All distribution comes with their package managent and that part should not be touched because each one was desgined according to their needs, but all will agree that manually unpacking a source, compiling it (specially for distros that do not install compilers as default) and installing is a task too difficult for John Doe. But do not loose sleep thinking on that since average John (MS User) Doe do not know even which Windows are using, or are physically able to follow a simple Next button. But they are not dumb, or stupid, just do not pay attention to details.
4. Hardware support, but this depends on mighty companies to port them early.
What directly affect gentoo and its developers can do something about it is:
1. Alternate installation (glis???? where are you?)
2. bootstrap resuming. Better to compile your last bootstrap package alone after fixing the problem instead of recompiling all the stuff again.
3. Autodetection of nptl flag and installation of development headers prior to the compilation of glibc on the bootstrap. Developers said 2.6.x is not supported right now, but they should support it sooner or later, so whiy not begin right now 
4. ufed as part of the stages to facilitate our optimizing needs
5. bring back the old LiveCD1.4 logo... better than the current one, and more professional IMHO.
6. SCSI support on 2004.0 isos. 
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Trejkaz
Guru
Joined: 14 Nov 2002
Posts: 479
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| darkcoder wrote: |
1. Centralized DE Widgets styles and selection. Example, basic widget styles like Plastik, Keramik, Nuvola, Ximian, available for all DE's and a change in one of them would apply a consistent look on others. Advantage: No more Keramik KDE with basic Gnome GUI Gimp or X-Chat.
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Man, that would rule. Attemps which use the Qt style API to draw Gtk are one step in the right direction, at least.
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2. Different projects that share same goals should join forces. That would make a more standard, streamline (not bloated) installation that will take less HD space. Advantage: Not having both xine and mplayer because your video player use xine as backend, and your browser play movies better with mplayer-plugin.
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It would be okay if just the codecs were shared. The actual space any given media player takes up would be pretty minimal without the codecs... you would pretty much end up with a GUI. What you would need to do this is mplayer and xine to agree on an API for their codecs, so they can share them. The best advantage would be beyond disk space, it would be that if you have a codec installed, you know it's the best one and not the crackly sound one which seems to be in mplayer.
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3. An standard intallation mecanism (preferable with GUI) for software that do not come as part of a distribution. All distribution comes with their package managent and that part should not be touched because each one was desgined according to their needs, but all will agree that manually unpacking a source, compiling it (specially for distros that do not install compilers as default) and installing is a task too difficult for John Doe. But do not loose sleep thinking on that since average John (MS User) Doe do not know even which Windows are using, or are physically able to follow a simple Next button. But they are not dumb, or stupid, just do not pay attention to details.
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Now in theory, it would be trivial to convert a standardish ./configure && make && make install package into an ebuild, right?
Maybe portage one day will know how to deal with this, and will install this sort of package where it belongs (/usr/local) and record its existence in /var/db/pkg and so forth. That would be great.
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4. Hardware support, but this depends on mighty companies to port them early.
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Or for them to write for Linux first. You must admit that's the best option, even if the most unlikely.
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1. Alternate installation (glis???? where are you?)
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GLIS may well have solved my last major install problem, which as far as I can tell was doing a step in the wrong order. As for where it is, either the last GWN or the one before it mentioned a developer who joined the "installer" project.
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2. bootstrap resuming. Better to compile your last bootstrap package alone after fixing the problem instead of recompiling all the stuff again.
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Well... bootstrap time is nothing compared to 'emerge system' time. 
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4. ufed as part of the stages to facilitate our optimizing needs
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I would kill for that to be available after bootstrap. Otherwise it's "emerge -pv system" and scour every package to check that the flags are right... yuck. Then again there aren't many which matter during emerge system, I guess. At least, not for me. |
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NicholasDWolfwood
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Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:50 am Post subject: |
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Hrm.
Install went fine, albeit I had to use stage3 because my CFlags at the time didn't work with each other, and in turn bootstrap crapped out, but I didn't know it was cflags. Something strange is happening though...I merged XFree (as root) and as root, I tried st<tab>. startx didn't show up. Neither did fglrxconfig or xf86config. I'ma try remerging them tomorrow night and see what happens.
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darkcoder
Apprentice
Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 253
Location: Lynchburg, VA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:43 am Post subject: |
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Other thing, trivial and easy fixed. My cd at first was not mounted (I use supermount, but have commented autofs entries just in case), when I look in detailed the /mnt/cdrom folder was missing. I just create it and presto.
Other thing, do not know if it is for the flags I use, but I also note that some packages that are supposed to add an entry do not do that, only packages AFAIK that give me that problem were alsa-utils, and fam. Fam gives me compiler error, and I use a propposed ebuild available on bugs.gentoo.org and I commented there the problem with /etc/init.d/famd file that was not created.
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darkcoder
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Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 253
Location: Lynchburg, VA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:46 am Post subject: |
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Sorry for lack of info. The problem was with some packages that add an init script to /etc/init.d.
The two packages that gave me problem were fam and alsa-utils. All others like hdparm, vixie-cron, syslog-ng perform as spected.
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darkcoder
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Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 253
Location: Lynchburg, VA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Trejkaz wrote: | | It would be okay if just the codecs were shared. The actual space any given media player takes up would be pretty minimal without the codecs... you would pretty much end up with a GUI. What you would need to do this is mplayer and xine to agree on an API for their codecs, so they can share them. The best advantage would be beyond disk space, it would be that if you have a codec installed, you know it's the best one and not the crackly sound one which seems to be in mplayer. |
That' s even better. And getting a better plugin will enhance all programs at the same time.
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Now in theory, it would be trivial to convert a standardish ./configure && make && make install package into an ebuild, right?
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It would be trivial, but I can tell you about my previous Windows programming experience that many Install creation programs like IS-tool, Install Shield, Install Master work with some kind of script, and build a generic GUI Interface on Top of it. While is nice if some day (version 4??) of portage install software from sources and add it to the tree like one from ebuild would be excellent for us, but I mean of a standard way of software distribution on Linux that will install easily with most major distros (of course us included), like the installers usually used on Wimpy software.
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Well... bootstrap time is nothing compared to 'emerge system' time.
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nothing compared, but anyway its better to skip a gcc compile if it was done previously.
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Trejkaz
Guru
Joined: 14 Nov 2002
Posts: 479
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| darkcoder wrote: | | It would be trivial, but I can tell you about my previous Windows programming experience that many Install creation programs like IS-tool, Install Shield, Install Master work with some kind of script, and build a generic GUI Interface on Top of it. While is nice if some day (version 4??) of portage install software from sources and add it to the tree like one from ebuild would be excellent for us, but I mean of a standard way of software distribution on Linux that will install easily with most major distros (of course us included), like the installers usually used on Wimpy software. |
Well... if every distro did use a standard layout, then it would be possible to just use ./configure && make && make install on most packages, and you could add a configure script to fill the void for packages where it doesn't work.
But the layout is the issue. Looking at something like Java which should be relatively easy to agree on, I've seen people put JAR files in /opt, /usr/share, /usr/lib/java, or any variant of it. Gentoo uses /usr/share/<packagename>/lib/<jarfile>.jar, which makes a lot of sense since JAR files aren't platform dependent and thus don't belong in lib. But turning other distros to this mode of thinking would be impossible.
You could theoretically just set things up so every distro knew how to compile and correctly install autoconf-style packages for their own layout, and that would in fact be fine. You would most need the version of the installer script on each distro to manage what prefixes to set when the configure occurs.
And then of course all you need is a GUI which figures out which distro is running and calls the appropriate script, assuming of course the script is different on every distro.
A common way to figure out which distro you are on would be brilliant for this. One way to do this is to force every single distro to create something like an /etc/distro-metadata file with all the info in it. Another way would be something like 'uname' which returns the distro name or layout information instead of the kernel information. Then you would need to convince every distro to include this program as a matter of life or death. The only way I see this happening is if it become a compulsory requirement for something like GCC to work.
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nothing compared, but anyway its better to skip a gcc compile if it was done previously. |
Yeah, and besides, the gcc ebuild actually strips out the majority of the CFLAGS which are set, so there doesn't seem to be much optimisation gain available there. Of course... glibc is a lot bigger than gcc, and maybe they would help in that. Who knows... |
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mlaccetti
n00b
Joined: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 45
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Another success story!
Used the 2004-02-04 live CD and stage 1.
Everything is compiled and running. Using Mozilla Firefox on my Dell Inspiron 600m, while listening to some music via XMMS. Just need to figure out how to get the ACPI stuff for the lid to work, and the mute/volume buttons to work, and it'll be golden.
Very happy with how it turned out. And was nice that /dev came with the stage this time (didn't with the 01-28, which I used to install on my DP server).
One thing that I've come to realize: emerging gnome is a very long process. Eek.
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michael@s2g-limited.com
s2g Limited
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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deadMofo
n00b
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:36 pm Post subject: dhcpcd in stage1 tarball? |
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Installing from the 02/04 LiveCD and stage1:
When I extracted the stage1 tarball, and chrooted into the new environment, i found that dhcpcd was missing from /sbin. I don't recall having this problem when I used the previous LiveCD/stage1 (release 01/28 if i remember correctly...) Anyway, I copied dhcpcd from the LiveCD and I'm currently doing my first emerge sync on this installation... wish me luck. |
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Kasati
n00b
Joined: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 1
Location: Hamburg, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:56 pm Post subject: Testing on Asus notebook |
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Hi,
I'm going to set up the latest exp. version on my ASUS L3500D now, probably thats useful. Will be used as a production system.
Kasati |
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Remillard
Apprentice
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 200
Location: Irvine, CA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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A few questions about this if someone has the time:
1) In the "Installation Problems" forum, it seems the conventional wisdom is that the 2.6 kernel is the thing to put on. However I was reading through this forum, and it seems like there is a great deal of concern that a huge amount of apps do not know about 2.6, do not use 2.6, and will bork on 2.6. Is the IP's conventional wisdom basically "excitable installer's" syndrome, and the wiser course is to stick with 2.4.x for now? Or is 2.6 modifications happening quite quickly for the ebuilds and apps?
2) Is it possible to use the Gentoo 1.4 LiveCd just for booting, and then download, then just pull the 20040204 stage 1 tarball and cruise along? (or alternatively a Knoppix LiveCD, for groovy amusements while emerging ).
I think that's about it. I'm willing to give the 2004 stage 1 a shot tomorrow night assuming my new memory stick is happy.
Regards,
Remillard
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taskara
Advocate
Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 3763
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Remillard wrote: | A few questions about this if someone has the time:
1) In the "Installation Problems" forum, it seems the conventional wisdom is that the 2.6 kernel is the thing to put on. However I was reading through this forum, and it seems like there is a great deal of concern that a huge amount of apps do not know about 2.6, do not use 2.6, and will bork on 2.6. Is the IP's conventional wisdom basically "excitable installer's" syndrome, and the wiser course is to stick with 2.4.x for now? Or is 2.6 modifications happening quite quickly for the ebuilds and apps?
2) Is it possible to use the Gentoo 1.4 LiveCd just for booting, and then download, then just pull the 20040204 stage 1 tarball and cruise along? (or alternatively a Knoppix LiveCD, for groovy amusements while emerging ).
I think that's about it. I'm willing to give the 2004 stage 1 a shot tomorrow night assuming my new memory stick is happy.
Regards,
Remillard |
yes, 2.6 will break a number of packages, but only if you mean using 2.6 headers - having a 2.6 kernel will not break any packages (just perhaps some hardware )
and yes you can boot to whatever media you like and start installing gentoo - so long as it has the required linux commands
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Remillard
Apprentice
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 200
Location: Irvine, CA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| taskara wrote: | | Remillard wrote: | A few questions about this if someone has the time:
1) In the "Installation Problems" forum, it seems the conventional wisdom is that the 2.6 kernel is the thing to put on. However I was reading through this forum, and it seems like there is a great deal of concern that a huge amount of apps do not know about 2.6, do not use 2.6, and will bork on 2.6. Is the IP's conventional wisdom basically "excitable installer's" syndrome, and the wiser course is to stick with 2.4.x for now? Or is 2.6 modifications happening quite quickly for the ebuilds and apps?
2) Is it possible to use the Gentoo 1.4 LiveCd just for booting, and then download, then just pull the 20040204 stage 1 tarball and cruise along? (or alternatively a Knoppix LiveCD, for groovy amusements while emerging ).
I think that's about it. I'm willing to give the 2004 stage 1 a shot tomorrow night assuming my new memory stick is happy.
Regards,
Remillard |
yes, 2.6 will break a number of packages, but only if you mean using 2.6 headers - having a 2.6 kernel will not break any packages (just perhaps some hardware )
and yes you can boot to whatever media you like and start installing gentoo - so long as it has the required linux commands |
Now this is a distinction I had not heard before. What is the difference between the 2.6 kernel and the 2.6 headers (I'd assumed they were sort of the same package, you need the headers for the kernel compilation)? That is to say, how can I assure myself that I get the kernel but not the headers? Do I need to have a copy of 2.4 headers so that compiles have something stable to compile against?
Perhaps too many questions in a row there, but you get the idea.
Remi
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taskara
Advocate
Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 3763
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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gentoo is built with 2.4.x kernel headers.
all systems are built against the headers for your system.
the bootstrap process which builds your initial system uses 2.4 headers. consequently the rest of the packages on your system are also built against the 2.4 headers.
the kernel under gentoo is a different thing - you can have whatever kernel you want.
this is the ebuild for headers:
| Code: | bash-2.05b$ sudo emerge -s linux-headers
Searching...
[ Results for search key : linux-headers ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/linux-headers
Latest version available: 2.4.21
Latest version installed: 2.4.19-r1
Size of downloaded files: 27,864 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Linux 2.4.21 headers from kernel.org |
people need to make sure their applications compile against 2.6 headers.. and as 2.6 is quite new, atm not all packages do.
so it is recommended (and it is teh default) that you emerge 2.4 headers for your system.
you can still have a 2.6 kernel, or whatever version you like.
you can emerge a system with 2.6 headers if you run bootstrap-2.6.sh and add nptl to your use flags, with 2.6 kernel.
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Hackeron
Guru
Joined: 01 Nov 2002
Posts: 307
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:30 am Post subject: |
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the 2.4 kernel won't load PCMCIA, and the 2.6 loads PCMCIA when you modprobe manually but my prism2 wireless card cannot be configured although I loaded all modules and ran /etc/init.d/pcmcia start..
Please fix pcmcia support!
Also, I want to add a folder to the initial ramdisk file that is extracted to root on startup, any ideas how to do that?
EDIT: using: gentoo-2004.0-x86-20040206.iso, going to try an earlier release. |
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mudrii
l33t
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 789
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:18 am Post subject: |
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With Kernel 2.6.2 my laptop works OK with PCMCIA CARDS maybe your chipset is not suportied or I do not know ?
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Hackeron
Guru
Joined: 01 Nov 2002
Posts: 307
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| mudrii wrote: | | With Kernel 2.6.2 my laptop works OK with PCMCIA CARDS maybe your chipset is not suportied or I do not know ? |
yes, I got it working with the 2.4 XFS kernel after many headaches, had to run for i in $(find /lib/modules/2.4* | grep -i pcmcia); do insmod $i; done
that didn't work, I ran it in a loop for about 5 minutes, the lights came up, then I did the same with grep -i net.. after looping that for 5 minutes, /etc/init.d/pcmcia restart FINALLY detected my NIC
furthermore, my PCMCIA and my wireless work FLAWLESS each time with the stable boot CD, so please review what was broken in the new scripts, and wireless is supported with 2.6 kernel as well, but couldn't get it to run with this unstable boot CD. |
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overdozed
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 77
Location: Munich/Germany
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| when I wanted to emerge rox, I was told that I needet an perl XML::parser after installing it I could proceed without dificulties |
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ubik
n00b
Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| taskara wrote: | gentoo is built with 2.4.x kernel headers.
all systems are built against the headers for your system.
the bootstrap process which builds your initial system uses 2.4 headers. consequently the rest of the packages on your system are also built against the 2.4 headers.
the kernel under gentoo is a different thing - you can have whatever kernel you want.
this is the ebuild for headers:
| Code: | bash-2.05b$ sudo emerge -s linux-headers
Searching...
[ Results for search key : linux-headers ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/linux-headers
Latest version available: 2.4.21
Latest version installed: 2.4.19-r1
Size of downloaded files: 27,864 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Linux 2.4.21 headers from kernel.org |
people need to make sure their applications compile against 2.6 headers.. and as 2.6 is quite new, atm not all packages do.
so it is recommended (and it is teh default) that you emerge 2.4 headers for your system.
you can still have a 2.6 kernel, or whatever version you like.
you can emerge a system with 2.6 headers if you run bootstrap-2.6.sh and add nptl to your use flags, with 2.6 kernel. |
Ok, than what would the advantage be building the system with 2.6 kernel headers? And what does nptl flag do? I've seen that it is connected to a threading system, but i do not understand in what way having a system nptl compliant + linux-headers 2.6 would help.... |
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principito
n00b
Joined: 26 May 2002
Posts: 19
Location: Providence, RI
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:16 pm Post subject: post install differences? |
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Ok maybe this is a dumb question and I appologize I haven't read the full thread.
What are the differences AFTER the install. I understand the release note changes but they seem geared towards the actual install. Looking at my /etc/make.profile vs the /usr/portage/profiles/*2004* there doesn't seem much difference.
Is there anything of particular importance to point out?
Thanks |
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HuangBo
n00b
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 40
Location: Tsinghua, Beijing, China
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:48 am Post subject: |
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Well. Well. I can understand. But I really really hate the notion to divide the users as "Windos User" and "Linux user". I'm feeling strongly that I was MISUNDERSTOOD here when I complained a lot and gave suggestions.
Look, I have said that I HATE windows. And I have said that I've tried again and again and again to use linux. I appreciate the developers' job. And I'm very much upset because I can help NOTHING in develop because I don't know (actually I know some, compared with average people around me, I must be outstanding computer-er, because my second major is Computer Science, although I learned little advanced knowledge by this major) much about programming.
So I'm not complaining anything about linux. I'm SUGGESTING a divide in users' group. The developers, and users. Developers must focus on the inherent integrity of linux, make sure they work fine, and build a friendly interface. And users, just use them.
So in my opinion, linux NEVER have been released. Because no (or as little as equation of no) user has ever used it. Linux-alpha is the rc group, and linux-beta is the so-called release. It has never entered the users' world.
BTW, you may think that "emerge ***" is too simple to be complained. I'll say: it is a shit for at least half of the people around the world. Here in china, you know, 1,300,000,000+ people, how many of them know ENGLISH? for 99.99% of them, "EMERGE" is as nonsense as BULLSHIT. But "install.exe" and "next" in chinese with beautiful GUI is a good thing. I think there is pretty more people who don't speak english. I'm not complaining the non-GUI stuffs. I'm just saying, "customers are the gods!"(I hope I spelled right). Has anybody think of that?
So you, the developers, have to do something, if you want to win more people and get linux more common.
I appologize for anything inconvenience in content or grammar.
Happy Valentine's day.
Yours. Huang Bo
02/14/2004
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I'm a Chinese student!
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taskara
Advocate
Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 3763
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:51 am Post subject: |
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I'm not quite sure I follow all you are saying, many people use linux ?
and I love my linux the way it is.
I like emerge.
I don't want a gui.
And if 1.3 billion chinese can't learn "emerge" then there's something wrong there, and it's not Gentoo.
Linux does not have customers.. this is not a product we are trying to sell.
If you like the way we do things, great come onboard and use it for FREE. If you don't, then go write your own programs or find something else to use.
Or perhaps you can start paying the developers and then they might help make things a little "prettier" or whatever it is you're after exactly.
I'd much prefer developers continued improving the base of gentoo than make things prettier.
In my opinion, nothing's more beautiful than | Quote: | | chris@server chris $ |
and I don't think anyone has been attacking you for your suggestions at all, if that is what you are conveying.
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