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furbitso
n00b
Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 26
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 Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 8:16 pm Post subject: Bought a computer from the scrap yard for £5... |
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Hi all,
I bought an old pentium machine from the scrap yard for a fiver - plugged it into power and monitor when I got home, and was not surprised to find that it doesn't work.
However, if there's life in the old girl yet, and I suspect there is, then I intend to find it, and turn it into a trusty gentoo server.
When I turn this old thing on, it gives me 3 short beeps - I don't know what this means, though I've found vague guidelines on various websites; none much good. The next clue is that it doesn't output anything to the monitor - making it difficult for me to identify the problem. I'm guessing it's something to do with the video card, but what? I've tried reseating it but to no avail.
The video card in question is made by STB Systems Inc and according to a label, it is a "Nitro 3D/GX EDO 1.0". I don't know quite how to identify the motherboard, but I can confirm that it is made by Intel and it has a number on it, reading "E139761".
Can anyone come up with any suggestions as to how I could find the problem, and hopefully fix it?
Thanks!
Paul |
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adaptr
Watchman
Joined: 06 Oct 2002
Posts: 6730
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Three BIOS beeps means no video adapter found.
Either the card is dead, or the slot is.
Try the card in another machine and see if it works; if it does, it's either the slot (try a different one) or the memory that's bad.
Either means another fiver (or three) to get up to a working system  |
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furbitso
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Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the advice - I plugged the vid card into my debian box (it has an agp card) and it showed up when I ran lspci. However, there was still no monitor output from the card - I'm not sure if this is normal, so 2 questions arise:
1) a linux box that's configured to use only 1 monitor - would it output to another graphics card, if one was put in (with no installation)?
2) would a computer with a ram problem output anything to the monitor?
The card is "working" in that linux detected it. But there is no output - so maybe the connection to the monitor plug is broken?
Do you think it's safe to test the ram by replacing it with the ram from my box (which I know is good)? bear in mind that I don't know the history of this machine, whether it's been left in the rain for example...
Thanks |
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adaptr
Watchman
Joined: 06 Oct 2002
Posts: 6730
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| furbitso wrote: | Thanks for the advice - I plugged the vid card into my debian box (it has an agp card) and it showed up when I ran lspci. However, there was still no monitor output from the card - I'm not sure if this is normal, so 2 questions arise:
1) a linux box that's configured to use only 1 monitor - would it output to another graphics card, if one was put in (with no installation)? |
That all depends on the BIOS of the system - if it has the capability to boot off a PCI card before booting the AGP card, then it will boot the PCI card, and you can see if it outputs the normal boot sequence stuff.
If the BIOS doesn't support this (but may well support using it, just not booting from it) then you can't check this without running Xinerama or a similar multi-display thingy.
| furbitso wrote: | | 2) would a computer with a ram problem output anything to the monitor? |
That depends on the computer - recent (<5 yrs old) BIOSes need RAM to even run the simplest boot diagnostics (the POST), so no RAM means no way to boot up at all.
This is usually indicated by another sequence of beeps - AWARD/Phoenix BIOSes use two separated low tones, there may be others.
You can pull the memory out of a working box and boot it - that'll give you an idea 
| furbitso wrote: | | The card is "working" in that linux detected it. But there is no output - so maybe the connection to the monitor plug is broken? |
The PC doesn't know about this at all, so it would never fail this card for the reason of not being able to output a video signal.
The only criterium the computer has of judging whether the card works is whether the logic of the card works, i.e. it reacts to the computer's commands in the right way.
It will boot if there's no monitor attached, even when the capacity for attaching a monitor has been burned right out of the circuits - none of that affects the card's capability to communicate with the computer (although it would admittedly be just as useless in this case...)
| furbitso wrote: | | Do you think it's safe to test the ram by replacing it with the ram from my box (which I know is good)? |
If the system is old, you won't have the opportunity, as it will most likely use 72-pin SIMMs, and any newer system (say less than 5 years old) will have DIMMs exclusively.
Not interchangeable no-way.
| furbitso wrote: | | bear in mind that I don't know the history of this machine, whether it's been left in the rain for example... |
Which makes it indeed a poor choice to run-test your precious RAM on it...
You can easily see whether the RAM is the problem by removing all of it, then plugging in 2 at a time (Pentium SIMMs always need pairs) in every available combination (they have to be in pairs, though).
If none of it works, then it's probably the memory. |
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ctford0
l33t
Joined: 25 Oct 2002
Posts: 774
Location: Lexington, KY,USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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The beeps could mean various things like bad memory. Unfortunately there is not standard for beep codes. If the computer happens to be a Dell you might be in luck. I have very good luck finding their beep codes on their website. If it is not a Dell you could possible find the information from the motherboard manufacturer.
Chris |
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furbitso
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Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Okay, thank for you all the advice. I've examined the motherboard some more and there are 3 ram slots - but there is a light brown one which is slightly shorter than the other two, dark brown ones. I recognisethe dark brown ones because they're the same as on my motherboard.
I don't have much experience with old systems - am i looking at a SIMM slot and 2 DIMM slots? The ram that is installed is in the short, light brown slot.
What you said about ram being installed in pairs on pentiums has confused me - there seems to be only one ram chip in there.
Incidentally, the whole lot was built in 1997.
Hope you can shed some more light on the problem!
Paul |
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furbitso
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Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 10:46 am Post subject: The plot thickens... |
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Weird. I've just noticed that the motherboard's speaker connector doesn't have a speaker connected, but a jumper!
Therefore I am slightly confused as to where the beeping is actually coming from! Any suggestions? |
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adaptr
Watchman
Joined: 06 Oct 2002
Posts: 6730
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| furbitso wrote: | | Okay, thank for you all the advice. I've examined the motherboard some more and there are 3 ram slots - but there is a light brown one which is slightly shorter than the other two, dark brown ones. I recognisethe dark brown ones because they're the same as on my motherboard. |
Which are...?
You at least would know what type of RAM module is in your own system.
| furbitso wrote: | | I don't have much experience with old systems - am i looking at a SIMM slot and 2 DIMM slots? The ram that is installed is in the short, light brown slot. |
Are these next to each other or separated, or even perpendicular ?
If separated, the small one is not RAM at all - it is cache memory for the CPU.
They will only be all system RAM when they are directly parallel.
| furbitso wrote: | | What you said about ram being installed in pairs on pentiums has confused me - there seems to be only one ram chip in there. |
Which leads me to believe that it isn't, and there is no RAM in the box - just the cache module.
| furbitso wrote: | | Incidentally, the whole lot was built in 1997. |
Yes, most Pentium-1 systems came with optional cache modules around then (I'v seen literally hundreds).
If as you say it is absolutely the same type of RAM as in your own box then by all means try them out!
If they are DIMMs you only need one, but I doubt that.
They may also not accept the same densities of memory as your box does, i.e. 64MB might only show up as 16 on the old board.
As for the "speaker" connector - how do you know it is one when there's no speaker attached ?
What is much more probable is that it is a switch of some kind - when you close the jumper you tell the board to use the on-board speaker, not an external one.
Which would be exactly what's happening in this case.
EDIT:
For your delectation, I've measured a few:
- 72-pin SIMMs are 4.2 inches long (108 mm)
- 168-pin DIMMs are MUCH longer, over 5 inches (132 mm)
The usually 256K or 512K cache modules tend to be slightly smaller than SIMMs, say just under 4 inches (100mm)
There are a few other varieties, but these are the most common, normal ones (non-parity).
And I should have thought of this before (*^*%*, but hey :
- SIMMs have ONE notch, roughly in the middle of the module, and one end is not straight but inset.
- DIMMs have TWO notches, the exact position depends on the type of DIMM (making it impossible to insert the wrong type into the wrong slot).
The cache modules also have one notch slightly off-center.
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furbitso
n00b
Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I've done some measuring up, and you're dead right - the "ram" i was referring to fits your description of a cache module perfectly. It's 106mm and has a notch off centre - the pin configuration is 38-notch-42 on both sides of the chip.
I compared the ram slots in the box to the ones in my box - they're the same length like I thought, but as you said, the notches are in different positions, so my ram wouldn't fit. The ram in my box is DDR DIMM - am I therefore right in assuming that this scrap yard box requires SDR DIMM? If so I'd say I'm in luck - £5 is a bargain, even without the ram! I only want it as as server box after all, so i can't see it needing much more than 64MB!
I had no idea that these cache modules even existed, but I'm glad I've found out - every time I think I know something about computing, I discover a whole new branch of knowledge! What fun.
Incidentally, what you said about DIMMs having two notches is interesting, because while the DIMM slots on the scrap yard box do have 2 notches, the ram in my box only has 1 (slightly off centre) Perhaps that's because it's DDR?
Anyway, thanks for the help! I'll report back once I've swiped some sdram and given it a shot!
Thanks,
Paul |
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adaptr
Watchman
Joined: 06 Oct 2002
Posts: 6730
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| furbitso wrote: | Ok, I've done some measuring up, and you're dead right - the "ram" i was referring to fits your description of a cache module perfectly. It's 106mm and has a notch off centre - the pin configuration is 38-notch-42 on both sides of the chip.
I compared the ram slots in the box to the ones in my box - they're the same length like I thought, but as you said, the notches are in different positions, so my ram wouldn't fit. The ram in my box is DDR DIMM - am I therefore right in assuming that this scrap yard box requires SDR DIMM? |
Quite probably - as I've said SIMMs are much smaller.
I'd say with 99.9% probability
And it's not that strange - I recently (well, about a year ago) found one with a P-200, and it also had 2 DIMM slots in addition to 4 SIMM slots.
I run it as a firewall (with ipcop) and the RAM speed definitely gave me a boost!
They began to switch over to the faster SDRAM at the end of the Pentium lifecycle - there are no P-2 mainboards with SIMMs AFAIK.
| furbitso wrote: | | If so I'd say I'm in luck - £5 is a bargain, even without the ram! I only want it as as server box after all, so i can't see it needing much more than 64MB! |
Quite so - a server needs HD and overall system performance before CPU speed anyway, and using DIMMs on a Pentium means the RAM runs at the speed of the FSB - 66MHz for a not-slow Pentium (133 and up).
SIMMs only run at 16 MHz at most.
| furbitso wrote: | | I had no idea that these cache modules even existed, but I'm glad I've found out - every time I think I know something about computing, I discover a whole new branch of knowledge! What fun. |
There is a site you need to know about in that case - the PC Guide.
Don't know what this guy gets from spending all his spare time on it - he has over 6000 (!) pages of PC hardware knowledge on this one site.
Seriously - if it's not on there it's not worth knowing.
| furbitso wrote: | | Incidentally, what you said about DIMMs having two notches is interesting, because while the DIMM slots on the scrap yard box do have 2 notches, the ram in my box only has 1 (slightly off centre) Perhaps that's because it's DDR? |
Yup.
The DDR-DRAM varieties don't come in different voltages - one of the notches on SDRAM indicates the bus voltage - either 3.3 or 5V.
All mainboards are 3.3v nowadays.
The other one indicates whether it is unbuffered or buffered (ECC, registered) memory.
It's all on the PC Guide site
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furbitso
n00b
Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Thank for all the help adaptr! I managed to get hold of an 8MB ram chip to test it, and it worked perfectly! Now I'm waiting for a 64MB chip I bought on ebay 
The website you mentioned, pcguide.com, is fantastic! What an excellent resource, I've already used it several times.
Can't wait to get this box setup as a firewall (thanks for the mention of ipcop too - will bear that in mind). Should be cool.
Thanks
Paul |
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