What would ESR think of Gentoo?

wilburpan · l33t Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 977

I just read this article on UI design on Eric S. Raymond's website. He talks about trying to configure CUPS, and the problems he ran into trying to do so.

The docs for installing Gentoo are pretty good. The forums are a very useful source of information. However, the problem with relying on these resources is that it fosters a Keep Running Things Until They Break And Then Look For A Solution method of maintaining your Gentoo setup. I know that's what I do. But for a number of basic packages, the existing documentation, well, just plain sucks. My most recent attempt at adding to my system involved trying to get an external keyboard to function correctly when plugged into my laptop. I read the XF86Config documentation like a good Gentoo user should. Here's a quote from the section on Input Devices that is intended to help me out:

regeya

IvanHoe · l33t Joined: 05 Oct 2002 Posts: 658

Perhaps he should've said "the [open source] community should do better than this."

aethyr · Veteran Joined: 06 Apr 2003 Posts: 1085 Location: NYC

This isn't a problem localized solely to Gentoo, but rather to Xfree86. Note, his article was about CUPS, not about Red Hat's printing.

Each distribution may or may not have their own ways to set up certain services, but I think his point was that the people actually making this software should be more conscious of the end user.

Evangelion · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:45 am Post subject:

He might have some good points in his article/rant, but that doesn't change the fact that ESR is an arrogant windbag who is all talk, and very little action.
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shm · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:55 am Post subject:

Athas · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:48 am Post subject:

Indeed. He crafted fetchmail, but he's actually made very few serious contributions to the community (compared to his bravado, that is).

I do like his adventure-like kernel configuration util, though.

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Evangelion · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:20 am Post subject:

Saw this in the Slashdot-discussion. ESR, the champion of usability, has given us UI's like this, this and this. The way I see it, ESR is in no position to whine about UI-mistakes some other havev made, when he himself is order of magnitude worse!
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dgt84 · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 12:31 pm Post subject:

Evangelion · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 12:42 pm Post subject:

dgt84 · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:07 pm Post subject:

shm · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:07 pm Post subject:

Athas · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:15 pm Post subject:

ebrostig · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:35 pm Post subject:

I completly agree with ESR!

I have said this over and over again that most software is ugly and lacking in the useability/ergonomics department and will continue to do so for years.

I think it is long overdue to get a discussuion on these issues. Programmers are not the right ones to make userinterfaces, they don't know jack crap about it and just throws together GUI's after their own itch without regards for a Joe User. If Linux is going to become a more viable desktop solution this needs to change and dramatically.

Erik
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Pete_Keller · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:32 pm Post subject:

dweigert · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:17 pm Post subject:

ESR's primary contribution in the recent past was writing a little essay called "The Cathedral and the Bazzarr" . Just a little essay that, mind you , triggered Netscape into open-sourcing their proprietary code. Then others took up the idea... SGI with XFS, IBM with JFS, etc. His *Rants* triggered a software revolution that brings us here. Having met hime several times, yes he is abrasive, but his philosophies on Open Source are one of the things that bind us together as a community.

Dan
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duff · Guru Joined: 19 Jun 2002 Posts: 466 Location: Clemson, SC

Glorandar

I can agree that ESR can be 1) pompous, 2) arrogant, and 3) a windbag.

However, IMO that doesn't make his points about open source software's UI design any less true.

Haven't we all experienced, at one time or another, the frustration he wrote about?
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Athas · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:37 pm Post subject:

choco · n00b Joined: 10 Jun 2003 Posts: 49 Location: Jackson, MI

One of the reasons I switched from Mandrake 8.1 to Gentoo a couple years ago was because of frustration with doing things the insufficent-GUI way. I felt like I could get stuff done in Mandrake, but it seemed like I had to keep resorting to a command line. I figured that since I was resorting to a command line so much, why bother keeping the GUI around to slow down the system and take up space? So I moved to Gentoo.

I don't hate a GUI. In fact, I use xcdroast to burn CDs. But if a GUI to a program isn't a complete replacement for the command line interface (for instance, configuration options that don't even show up in the GUI), then I tend to use the command line/edit config files by hand. ESR experienced the same frustration, having to fall back on command line techniques.
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Chineseyes · n00b Joined: 22 Oct 2003 Posts: 49

To be honest I take absolutely NOTHING esr says seriously. esr reminds me of those old men who like to talk to talk talk until your ear falls off and you forget what they were originally talking about. I sat down to read several of these blogs when I had first come to hear about the man and I was extremely disappointed that he was considered a leader in in the open source movement. I was expecting someone who wrote with eloquence and poise, someone who commanded respect. Instead I found he rants to the point where his message is lost a good portion of the time. Also outside of his comments on the open source movement I found very disturbing remarks that to most would be considered racist. I understand everyone has a right to their own opinions but for a so-called "leader" I would expect a bit more self-control. Despite all his achievements if esr is the type of person that the open source community would look to for direction I'd rather go elsewhere.

ponds · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 6:35 pm Post subject:

ESR is a nut.

He might have been a visionary in the past, but he is doing more harm than good now.

CorporalCarrot · n00b Joined: 21 Dec 2003 Posts: 30

I wonder how many people here and on slashdot who are slagging ESR have actually gone and read his article from start to finish?? Anyone who has done so could not fault the article, despite what you might feel about his other beliefs. IMO it is an excellent, well structured article on the difficulties people have with GUI design and unlike many people who complain about things without offering any proof or suggestions for improvement he has actually gone to the trouble of documenting the difficulties in painstaking detail.

But to get back on topic and to the original question; what would he think of Gentoo?? I think he would have no problem with Gentoo for the following reason. Gentoo does not try to pretend it is anything other than an extremely difficult system to install and not for computer novices.

its GUI's that purport to make things easier but achieve the opposite that he is railing against.

C

airhead · Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:19 pm Post subject:

To all the people who are bagging ESR, I think that he has done quite a lot for the F/OSS communities (It looks like he might have more code to add to his list - Java). How does what *you* have done for the community compare with ESR?

Thanks

sapphirecat · Guru Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 376