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 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:32 am Post subject: Interesting Question |
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Hey yall'
Can anyone answer this question?
Given the same hardware, and the same application, can you explain why vi would work correctly on a Knoppix CD and then run like complete shit on a typical Gentoo install?
Some tidbits:
* Vi has actually worked correctly on this machine before with Gentoo
* Vi currently works perfectly on this machine via a Knoppix session
* Vi is currently completely unusable on this machine with a typical Gentoo installation (Since a reinstall about 2 months ago)
* I have already read about ten thousand solutions to the problem, it seems quite complex for a damn backspace and delete key(s), and I don't see why it would have worked before, but not now. Very strange. Incidentally, none of the solutions I have tried work.
Thanks to anyone who can crack this riddle. |
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pjp
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Joined: 16 Apr 2002
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:35 am Post subject: |
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It might help to make the riddle a bit less cryptic by including the actual problem.
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | It might help to make the riddle a bit less cryptic by including the actual problem. |
I understand your response, but, given the literal over-documentation of this backspace/delete/vi problem I thought that including backspace/delete/vi and problem (or a synonym of problem) would be suffice to explain that I am having the famous backspace/delete/vi problem.
Well, let me just say that my backspace and delete key do not function in vi under Gentoo, but work perfectly under a Knoppix CD on the same machine, and for what it's worth, worked perfectly on a previous incarnation of Gentoo on this machine. I did not deviate in my installation routine as it is practically scripted. I hope someone has a magic bullet, because everything I have read does not work, and I really like Vi. |
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Given M. Sur
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Joined: 03 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| 00420 wrote: | | Are they different versions of vi? |
Yes three times to that.
My guess is the Vi on the newest Knoppix CD is the oldest.
My previous incarnation of Gentoo probably had a newer version (2 months ago ~x86)
The current Gentoo has app-editors/vi-3.7-r5 |
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cabbagewalker
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Joined: 09 Feb 2004
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Location: Nottingham, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:39 am Post subject: |
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I think what 00420 ment was the type of vi involved.
Fir instance there is elvis, nvi, vim etc all of which are versions of vi. I think the default for Gentoo is elvis, but I'm not sure.
Also the type of terminal you are using can affect the problem you are having, like in Knoppix you are using "konsole" -- probably, in Gentoo there are others like xterm, rxvt, the gnome terminal, aterm etc |
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Given M. Sur
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Joined: 03 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| cabbagewalker wrote: | I think what 00420 ment was the type of vi involved.
Fir instance there is elvis, nvi, vim etc all of which are versions of vi. I think the default for Gentoo is elvis, but I'm not sure.
Also the type of terminal you are using can affect the problem you are having, like in Knoppix you are using "konsole" -- probably, in Gentoo there are others like xterm, rxvt, the gnome terminal, aterm etc |
Actually, I was referring to version numbers. I've never used vi, so I had no idea it was so diverse 
But, if I had known that at the time of asking my question, that would've been what I meant 
Anyways, bushwacka, try a different version, or a different version number, or a different terminal. One of those things should do the trick.
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Souperman
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Joined: 14 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| cabbagewalker wrote: | | Fir instance there is elvis, nvi, vim etc all of which are versions of vi. I think the default for Gentoo is elvis, but I'm not sure. |
elvis and vim are vi clones, not versions of vi. Not sure about nvi as I've never heard of it. Yes, yes, I'm being anal.  Gentoo's default editor is nano.
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| cabbagewalker wrote: | I think what 00420 ment was the type of vi involved.
Fir instance there is elvis, nvi, vim etc all of which are versions of vi. I think the default for Gentoo is elvis, but I'm not sure.
Also the type of terminal you are using can affect the problem you are having, like in Knoppix you are using "konsole" -- probably, in Gentoo there are others like xterm, rxvt, the gnome terminal, aterm etc |
After using the letters Vi more than a dozen times in my post(s) I think it woud be clear that we are talking about Vi. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| 00420 wrote: | | cabbagewalker wrote: | I think what 00420 ment was the type of vi involved.
Fir instance there is elvis, nvi, vim etc all of which are versions of vi. I think the default for Gentoo is elvis, but I'm not sure.
Also the type of terminal you are using can affect the problem you are having, like in Knoppix you are using "konsole" -- probably, in Gentoo there are others like xterm, rxvt, the gnome terminal, aterm etc |
Actually, I was referring to version numbers. I've never used vi, so I had no idea it was so diverse
But, if I had known that at the time of asking my question, that would've been what I meant
Anyways, bushwacka, try a different version, or a different version number, or a different terminal. One of those things should do the trick. |
I am currently in aterm, but same problem in xterm, and wxterm. I don't run KDE or Gnome and I am not going to install a thousand packages to run those Konsole or Gnome-terminal. This Vi should work in aterm though right? |
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:20 am Post subject: Re: Interesting Question |
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| bushwacka wrote: | Hey yall'
Can anyone answer this question?
Given the same hardware, and the same application, can you explain why vi would work correctly on a Knoppix CD and then run like complete shit on a typical Gentoo install?
Some tidbits:
* Vi has actually worked correctly on this machine before with Gentoo
* Vi currently works perfectly on this machine via a Knoppix session
* Vi is currently completely unusable on this machine with a typical Gentoo installation (Since a reinstall about 2 months ago)
* I have already read about ten thousand solutions to the problem, it seems quite complex for a damn backspace and delete key(s), and I don't see why it would have worked before, but not now. Very strange. Incidentally, none of the solutions I have tried work.
Thanks to anyone who can crack this riddle. |
Yes! Go Me, I found another page full of solutions, now up to 10,001 and counting! Really, why can't something as simple as two keys on a keyboard be fixed! Crazy shit.
http://aterm.sourceforge.net/keyboard.html |
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Ricky
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Joined: 30 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:10 am Post subject: |
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So, I don't use vi (emacs, w00t! ) so I don't know what exactly your problem is or what solutions you've tried, but when I've run into keys acting funny or console apps acting funny it's usually because of the term type, not neccessarily which version of terminal. if you do a is it different in KNOPPIX and Gentoo? You say it worked before in Gentoo, can you pinpoint a general time when it stopped working right and what's changed since when it has? Is the backspace/delete problem isolated to vi? Again, just some generic trouble-shooting things, cuz I often forget to try the simple stuff, and cuz I don't know your problem detailed. (Yeah, I could search around and probably get all the hairy details about it, but hey I've got problems of my own, I'm just passing through and figured I'd throw in my change )
btw, I realize you're frustrated with this, but the attitude probably isn't helping your cause  |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| Ricky wrote: | So, I don't use vi (emacs, w00t! ) so I don't know what exactly your problem is or what solutions you've tried, but when I've run into keys acting funny or console apps acting funny it's usually because of the term type, not neccessarily which version of terminal. if you do a is it different in KNOPPIX and Gentoo? You say it worked before in Gentoo, can you pinpoint a general time when it stopped working right and what's changed since when it has? Is the backspace/delete problem isolated to vi? Again, just some generic trouble-shooting things, cuz I often forget to try the simple stuff, and cuz I don't know your problem detailed. (Yeah, I could search around and probably get all the hairy details about it, but hey I've got problems of my own, I'm just passing through and figured I'd throw in my change )
btw, I realize you're frustrated with this, but the attitude probably isn't helping your cause |
The problem is isolated to Vi. I've read these forums, not much useful info. I've googled, same situation. No other programs are affected. It works in Knoppix on this hardware. It worked in Gentoo, on this hardware, before a reinstall, circa 2 months ago. Rather then itemize all the things I've tried, trust me when I say I've covered everything you've suggested, and most anything that made sense out there in google land. As for the attitude, I can't help but get frustrated when I google around and all I read about is this macrohistorical backspace/delete problem that just can't go away after 30 years that it will one day transcend and overtake the very palestinian jewish crisis that we hear so much about on the so-called news. Anyway, it's two freaking keys, there should not be so many pages documenting the problem, this should be fixed at the root. Again, it's just plain nutz. I've been using Linux for about 6 years, and not an expert in the least, but please, this problem is quite an embarassing thing for an o.s. to have. If Vi is a staple app for Linux then I tell you, it should damn well work! Oh, and I mean all this with the most endearing respect for linux, but damn. |
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georwell
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Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 430
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:22 am Post subject: |
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strange... I have been using vi for years and have never even tried to use the backspace and delete keys. Whats wrong with dl, dj, or dw?  |
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cabbagewalker
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Joined: 09 Feb 2004
Posts: 61
Location: Nottingham, UK
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 11:36 am Post subject: |
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bushwacka
What I would do is to check whether your delete and backspaces keys work in aterm by typing any old rubbish in there any trying to delete it.
If that's O/K then the problem in with the type of Vi you are using.
I've just checked and it looks as if the default Vi installed at the moment by gentoo is the "good old-fashioned and original" Vi.
This surprised me because I thought that the code was proprietary, but it appears that the company who held the rights to the software -- Caldera, who are now called SCO released the code into the public domain and it looks as if that is what you are using.
I'm not an expert on Vi, but I thought you used "x" key to delete , in the non-editing mode and not the delete key. This is because Vi dates from teletype days and was around before the PC keyboard was thought of.
If you don't want to do this then use one of the "Vi clones", there's plenty of them in portage apps-editors (nvi, elvis, vile etc) about anything with a "vi" in the name is a "Vi" clone.
Knoppix probably used one of these and Gentoo probably did in the past. |
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Ricky
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Joined: 30 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| bushwacka wrote: | | The problem is isolated to Vi. I've read these forums, not much useful info. I've googled, same situation. No other programs are affected. It works in Knoppix on this hardware. It worked in Gentoo, on this hardware, before a reinstall, circa 2 months ago. Rather then itemize all the things I've tried, trust me when I say I've covered everything you've suggested, and most anything that made sense out there in google land. As for the attitude, I can't help but get frustrated when I google around and all I read about is this macrohistorical backspace/delete problem that just can't go away after 30 years that it will one day transcend and overtake the very palestinian jewish crisis that we hear so much about on the so-called news. Anyway, it's two freaking keys, there should not be so many pages documenting the problem, this should be fixed at the root. Again, it's just plain nutz. I've been using Linux for about 6 years, and not an expert in the least, but please, this problem is quite an embarassing thing for an o.s. to have. If Vi is a staple app for Linux then I tell you, it should damn well work! Oh, and I mean all this with the most endearing respect for linux, but damn. |
Yeah, I feel your pain with the random unsolved problems. The issue isn't so much that there's 30 different solutions to the problem, but that there's 30 different causes of the problem, all slightly and subtly different. Or, worse yet, you stumbled accross the 31st cause. Sorry I can't help much, like I said, I've got no experience in the area, but good luck. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| georwell wrote: | | strange... I have been using vi for years and have never even tried to use the backspace and delete keys. Whats wrong with dl, dj, or dw? |
Well, you know georwell, you do have a point there, however, three reasons compel me to make those two keys work. One is that they should. Two, is that they should, and three, well, they should. Joking aside though, I find that habit from other programs does not always allow my mind to stay in vi mode, so, I do occasionally hit those two keys, and well, when they don't work: well, you know the story. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| cabbagewalker wrote: | bushwacka
What I would do is to check whether your delete and backspaces keys work in aterm by typing any old rubbish in there any trying to delete it.
If that's O/K then the problem in with the type of Vi you are using. |
Oh, yeah, they're working, in everything else, shells, other editors, an so on, plus I've checked mappings as well, all is right. Vi is the only culprit, and it is the culprit whether in console, or term, same problem.
| cabbagewalker wrote: | I've just checked and it looks as if the default Vi installed at the moment by gentoo is the "good old-fashioned and original" Vi.
This surprised me because I thought that the code was proprietary, but it appears that the company who held the rights to the software -- Caldera, who are now called SCO released the code into the public domain and it looks as if that is what you are using. |
Now that is some good information I have not come across. Perhaps the Vi on portage 3 months ago was different altogether? Is that what your saying? That would explain a whole lot here.
| cabbagewalker wrote: | | I'm not an expert on Vi, but I thought you used "x" key to delete , in the non-editing mode and not the delete key. This is because Vi dates from teletype days and was around before the PC keyboard was thought of. |
I have gone beyond the realm of practicality to principle here. I know these two keys can work in a modern vi so fixed, they must be.
| cabbagewalker wrote: | | If you don't want to do this then use one of the "Vi clones", there's plenty of them in portage apps-editors (nvi, elvis, vile etc) about anything with a "vi" in the name is a "Vi" clone. |
Are these the same Vi that are standard issue on nearly every distribution?
Good bunch of leads there though, thanks. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Ricky wrote: | | bushwacka wrote: | | The problem is isolated to Vi. I've read these forums, not much useful info. I've googled, same situation. No other programs are affected. It works in Knoppix on this hardware. It worked in Gentoo, on this hardware, before a reinstall, circa 2 months ago. Rather then itemize all the things I've tried, trust me when I say I've covered everything you've suggested, and most anything that made sense out there in google land. As for the attitude, I can't help but get frustrated when I google around and all I read about is this macrohistorical backspace/delete problem that just can't go away after 30 years that it will one day transcend and overtake the very palestinian jewish crisis that we hear so much about on the so-called news. Anyway, it's two freaking keys, there should not be so many pages documenting the problem, this should be fixed at the root. Again, it's just plain nutz. I've been using Linux for about 6 years, and not an expert in the least, but please, this problem is quite an embarassing thing for an o.s. to have. If Vi is a staple app for Linux then I tell you, it should damn well work! Oh, and I mean all this with the most endearing respect for linux, but damn. |
Yeah, I feel your pain with the random unsolved problems. The issue isn't so much that there's 30 different solutions to the problem, but that there's 30 different causes of the problem, all slightly and subtly different. Or, worse yet, you stumbled accross the 31st cause. Sorry I can't help much, like I said, I've got no experience in the area, but good luck. |
Hey, thanks. Yup, I know exactly what your saying there haha. I feel close to hitting the solution though, so luck will get me there in a few! |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| cabbagewalker wrote: | I've just checked and it looks as if the default Vi installed at the moment by gentoo is the "good old-fashioned and original" Vi.
This surprised me because I thought that the code was proprietary, but it appears that the company who held the rights to the software -- Caldera, who are now called SCO released the code into the public domain and it looks as if that is what you are using. |
Gentoo must have used a different vi via an emerge vi in the past, because this one just does not work. I guess I'll be moving to vim, which I don't recall using on the previous install, I think I would have remembered the uganda message that flashes when starting it up.
Hey, but thanks guys, I am laying this one to rest. |
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