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jokr2thief
n00b
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 40
Location: New York
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 Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:10 am Post subject: Looking... |
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I've been looking for quite some time for a X-Based software similar to the Windows archiving utilities like WinZip and WinAce... The only one I've managed to come across thus far is file-roller, which I know to be a Gnome utility.
Now I refuse to install the libs for either Gnome or KDE on my system, (I'm a devout Fluxbox user, I would rather have a simple window manager than a bloated and broken 'desktop envronment'.) Now I couldn't find one of these in portage.... I don't mind having to install it by hand if someone could suggest one to me. |
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Quantumstate
Apprentice
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 270
Location: Dallas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| Dude, you mustn't have tried K lately. |
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MacMasta
Guru
Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 545
Location: Anchorage, AK
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:52 am Post subject: |
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The gtk / kde libraries aren't all that bad, y'know; you don't really need to use KDE to use KDE applications, or GNOME to use GTK.
~Mac~ |
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jokr2thief
n00b
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 40
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quantumstate wrote: | | Dude, you mustn't have tried K lately. |
Define lately. The last time I tried KDE was 6 months ago. And after 8 hours of compiling, It lasted less time than it took to install it. It wasn't long before I decided that it was too annoying to continue on my system.
KDE is too bloated. It installs scores of stuff that I would never use. I looked at the applications that came with it, hoping at least one of them would have some sort of reedeiming quality... They didn't.
KDE works on the same principles Windows does, from what I've seen because:
A) it uses the most resources possible to accomplish any given task.
B) It prevents the user from actually understanding how the computer works by giving him silly, cutesy little graphical representations of everything, thus robbing you of the need to actually think and read when you can just look at the pictures.
C) Comes with bloatware already installed... applications that try to replace the ones that don't use the KDE libs... They just took up space on my box because I couldn't stand them. I tried them, I poked and prodded at them, but in the end I found that they weren't special, and didn't do anything above and beyond what the tried and true applications I normally use did. They were just built with libbloat.  An install of Fluxbox with Mplayer, XMMS, Thunderbird, Firefox, X-Chat, Gaim, Aterm and Gvim (which, not counting games does pretty much everything KDE's base install does) is about half the size of a base install of KDE, and took about 1/4 the time to finish.
and D) It's not configureable. You're not supposed to see the files where KDE stores all of it's configurations, and you are most certianly not encouraged to edit them... So you're pretty much stuck with Microsoft's 'our way or the highway' policy on desktop configuration. In KDE, Just like in Windows, if you can't put the mouse cursor on it, you're not supposed to change it. I don't know about you, but I much prefer not having to click through 10 menus to find the configuration I'm looking for.. I want to open up a file in gvim and say 'Ah! There it is!', know exactly what it is that I'm changing and how it will look when I'm done... (Because it's documeneted right there in the config file). Not have to waste my time clicking at vaguely labeled checkboxes and having to hit 'Apply' and wait for everything to catch up, then decide that that option didn't do what I wanted it to do and repeat, ad nausem, until I find the right one.
Gnome is pretty much the same way.
So to sum up... It's big, it's bloated, it's ugly, It's too much like Windows, and it took 8 hours to compile. Fluxbox is sleeker, sexier, smaller, more configurable, and the compile time.. Well, See for yourself...
| Code: | jokr2thief@chamber ~ $ genlop -t fluxbox
* x11-wm/fluxbox
Wed Aug 11 23:35:21 2004 >>> x11-wm/fluxbox-0.9.9
merge time: 4 minutes and 15 seconds.
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Last edited by jokr2thief on Sat Aug 21, 2004 4:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ateo
Advocate
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Republic of California
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| jokr2thief wrote: | | KDE is too bloated. It installs scores of stuff that I would never use. I looked at the applications that came with it, hoping at least one of them would have some sort of reedeiming quality... They didn't. |
All it takes is a little search... Try "KDELite" if KDE is too bloated..
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=168925
This shows you how to install only what you want from the source packages... I agree, the default KDE install is WAY bloated.
Also, how can you compare a window manager to a full desktop environment? It's just not possible for they are 2 very different things. One provides JUST window management while the other provides a bloated environment that installs every program known to man. |
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jokr2thief
n00b
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 40
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| MacMasta wrote: | The gtk / kde libraries aren't all that bad, y'know; you don't really need to use KDE to use KDE applications, or GNOME to use GTK.
~Mac~ |
I Use GTK.... I love gaim. It's the best thing since the instant messenger... I try not to, but I even use QT on occasion. Those are graphics libs...
My system has neither Gnome or KDE installed... So I chose a random package and did an emerge -p. Take a look at this... (I chose 2 relatively similar programs from /usr/portage/games-mud)
| Code: | jokr2thief@chamber ~ $ emerge -p gnome-mud
These are the packages that I would merge, in order:
Calculating dependencies ...done!
[ebuild N ] dev-util/indent-2.2.9
[ebuild N ] gnome-base/ORBit2-2.10.3
[ebuild N ] gnome-base/libbonobo-2.6.2
[ebuild N ] gnome-base/libgnomecanvas-2.6.1.1
[ebuild N ] media-sound/esound-0.2.35
[ebuild N ] gnome-base/gconf-2.6.2
[ebuild N ] gnome-base/gnome-mime-data-2.4.1
[ebuild N ] net-nds/portmap-5b-r8
[ebuild N ] app-admin/fam-2.7.0-r1
[ebuild N ] gnome-base/gnome-vfs-2.6.1.1
[ebuild N ] gnome-base/libgnome-2.6.1.2
[ebuild N ] gnome-base/libbonoboui-2.6.1
[ebuild N ] gnome-base/gnome-keyring-0.2.1
[ebuild N ] gnome-base/libgnomeui-2.6.1.1
[ebuild N ] x11-themes/hicolor-icon-theme-0.5
[ebuild N ] x11-themes/gnome-icon-theme-1.2.3
[ebuild N ] x11-themes/gtk-engines-2.2.0
[ebuild N ] x11-themes/gnome-themes-2.6.2
[ebuild N ] app-text/sgml-common-0.6.3-r4
[ebuild N ] app-text/opensp-1.5.1
[ebuild N ] app-text/openjade-1.3.2-r1
[ebuild N ] app-text/docbook-sgml-dtd-3.0-r1
[ebuild N ] app-text/docbook-sgml-dtd-3.1-r1
[ebuild N ] app-text/docbook-sgml-dtd-4.1-r1
[ebuild N ] dev-perl/SGMLSpm-1.03-r5
[ebuild N ] app-text/docbook-dsssl-stylesheets-1.77-r2
[ebuild N ] app-text/docbook-xml-simple-dtd-1.0
[ebuild N ] net-www/lynx-2.8.5
[ebuild N ] app-text/docbook-xml-simple-dtd-4.1.2.4
[ebuild N ] app-text/build-docbook-catalog-1.2
[ebuild N ] app-text/docbook-xsl-stylesheets-1.65.1
[ebuild N ] app-text/docbook-xml-dtd-4.3
[ebuild N ] app-text/docbook-sgml-dtd-4.0-r1
[ebuild N ] app-text/docbook-sgml-utils-0.6.12-r2
[ebuild N ] app-text/docbook-xml-dtd-4.1.2-r5
[ebuild N ] dev-libs/libxslt-1.1.8-r1
[ebuild N ] app-text/scrollkeeper-0.3.14
[ebuild N ] x11-libs/vte-0.11.11-r1
[ebuild N ] games-mud/gnome-mud-0.10.5
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That's 40 Packages. By the time you're done with that, if you haven't gone ahead and installed the rest of Gnome at that point, you probably should... There's only about 20 more packages left.
KDE isn't much better.
| Code: | jokr2thief@chamber ~ $ emerge -p kmuddy
These are the packages that I would merge, in order:
Calculating dependencies ...done!
[ebuild N ] net-dns/libidn-0.5.4
[ebuild N ] net-nds/portmap-5b-r8
[ebuild N ] app-admin/fam-2.7.0-r1
[ebuild N ] dev-libs/libxslt-1.1.8-r1
[ebuild N ] kde-base/kde-env-3-r2
[ebuild N ] kde-base/kdebase-3.3.0
[ebuild N ] app-text/sgml-common-0.6.3-r4
[ebuild N ] kde-base/kdelibs-3.3.0
[ebuild N ] games-mud/kmuddy-0.6.1 |
That may not seem like a lot, but you only actually need probably 2 or 3 more packages to actually run KDE. Kdelibs is the bulk of that install... It's probably 6-7 of the 8 hours I was complaining about in my previous post.
I don't want that crap... If I wanted to emerge KDE or Gnome, I wolud have done it when I was first setting up X... They're big, they're bloated, they're useless, and I don't want them on my system. Especially not to accomidate a single software package. |
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jokr2thief
n00b
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 40
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Ateo wrote: | | This shows you how to install only what you want from the source packages... I agree, the default KDE install is WAY bloated. |
Indeed. But why would I want to?... Hold that thought, We'll get back to it further down.
| Ateo wrote: | | Also, how can you compare a window manager to a full desktop environment? It's just not possible for they are 2 very different things. One provides JUST window management while the other provides a bloated environment that installs every program known to man. |
Okay. You've got me there. I agree it is like comparing apples to oranges. In theroy, KDE is supposed to be 'more robust' and have 'more features'... But good luck finding them.
Of course in practice, I have yet find anything about KDE or Gnome that gives them an edge over any other package. Forget the bells and the whistles and the plugins and the applets and the applications. Look at the core of the environment and explain to me what it is about KDE that gives it an edge over Flux, or IceWM or Enlightenment. What is it that KDE does that none of the rest of them do? When you can find something let me know.
I have yet yet to find a single thing, and believe me, it hasn't been for lack of trying. For the size of it, and all the random and miscelaneous bits of stuff it installs that nothing else uses, I would just as soon not have it on my box. |
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stkaplan
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 108
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| It's easier to use for most people. More Windows-like and all. Useful for the less technically-inclined, or just for people who don't feel like tweaking 20 config files manually. |
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jokr2thief
n00b
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 40
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| stkaplan wrote: | | It's easier to use for most people. More Windows-like and all. Useful for the less technically-inclined, or just for people who don't feel like tweaking 20 config files manually. |
I never tweak 20 config files. Setting up Flux from scratch reqires minor aterations to three at most.... And it also begs the question... If you're not technically inclined, then why wouldn't you be using Windows?
You know, It's occured to me that in all this time, and all of my empassioned nay-saying about the Desktop Environments No one has actually bothered to adress the question that I originally asked. |
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zerojay
Veteran
Joined: 09 Aug 2003
Posts: 1033
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 7:31 am Post subject: |
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Wow, this must be a first. Everyone that usually attacks KDE complains that it's too configurable and here we have someone that says it's not configurable at all. Oooh-kay. You must have been thinking about Gnome when writing your rant about configuration up. All the KDE configuration files are just text-only files stored at ~/.kde/, just like almost every other programs files are, including Fluxbox. I occasionally go in there and make changes to my config that way if I'm at the console already.
KDE isn't all that bloated at all if I can run the entire environment, multiple web browsers, IRC, IM programs, watching movies and compiling at the same time and it never slows down, never skips a beat. This is on a PII 400 and judging that you said KDE took only 8 hours to compile, I'll guess you're on a P4. Takes about 24 hours for KDE here and it's worth every second of it. As far as installing programs you'll never use, compile KDE with the DO_NOT_COMPILE variable set with all the programs/parts you don't want compiled.
I find it ironic that someone who says that KDE robs people of the need to read and think by using cute graphics is looking for a graphical program for decompressing/unzipping when a simple, BLOATFREE answer lies in the command line unzip. I guess you aren't too techincally inclined either, huh? What's wrong, don't want to read, think or learn how the computer works?
Anyways, getting back on-topic, it's kind of hard to find some graphical compression tools that don't rely on Gnome or KDE in some form. "Cool Zippi Tool" was one that I found, but it relies on the X-Forms toolkit , so that might place it out of your field of interest. That can be found at http://home.metroweb.co.za/~r0cknr0l/coolzippitool.html. I haven't looked at the screenshots yet (because at the moment I'm sshed remotely into my box) but it claims to use a StuffIt-like interface, which should be good enough.
If I find anything else that might work, I'll let you know. |
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Muso
Veteran
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 1052
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Why even use a gui for something like that ?
bunzip2, gunzip, tar, gzip, bzip2, etc ,..... are incredibly easy to use from cli. Even with a gui tool available ... it's easier to use cli (imo)..
So my advice is ... practice on test files... mkdir Test, echo blah > test, cp test Test, rm test, tar cvf Test.tar Test, bzip2 --best Test.tar, etc etc etc etc
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"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" ~ Dorothy Parker
2021 is the year of the Linux Desktop! |
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Desktop Environments
