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 Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:27 am Post subject: |
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I wish my gf lived in the US or could come and see me or vice-versa so that I could see if she would like to use Linux. 
Anyway, I installed it for my mom and she likes how she can play with things without having to worry about jacking everything up. |
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luctor
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:57 am Post subject: Re: So Glad I Don't Use Windows |
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| PseudoKrazy wrote: | | OdinsDream wrote: |
Then, I get a call from my girlfriend, who had recently given up on Fedora 1 when she couldn't find PPP setup. |
Hahaha, whats with linux users always trying to get thier girlfriends to use linux? Every linux user in real life I know (who has a girlfriend) is trying to get their girlfriends using Linux... Mine is compeletly against the idea, but I'll get Linux on her computer eventually  . |
yup ... i'm guilty of that too..
it just a little puzzling she insist on using XP for (here it comes):
internet,hotmail,messenger,playing mp3, burning CD's
oh yeah, and of course you need a full blown XP install for typing a list of addresses ....
in wordpad
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asph
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:25 am Post subject: |
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this seems the typical "windows sux" post, lol
i agree linux is so great, and i am a proud user of gentoo.
but i also use windows sometimes as i have to use it at work, and also sometimes when i am at somebody's else home and it's not that bad.
i think that linux has it's good points, and windows has it's good points too.. there's no need to start a flamewar
in fact, i used windows at home years ago and also at work, and i've never been infected by a virus.. you know, if you open an email named "Re: your free program" and run the executable.. don't blame windows for it (also note that linux has rootkits and other malicious apps/exploits)
if you configure windows correctly it's not that bad, specially the new editions! but you know, it will never be linux 
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PowerFactor
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| nastassja wrote: | | and i've never been infected by a virus.. |
Heh, and here I thought I was the only one. Actually I did get a trojan on my system once. But it never installed itself even though I ran the program it was embedded in. So it was easy to get rid of. BTW what kind of stupid virus scanner doen't find anything when you manually scan the zipfile, then manuallly scan the files again after they've been unzipped or when you run the infected program with "realtime protection" enabled. But then finds a trojan in the zipfile and the extracted files during the weekly scan two days later. And no the database wasn't updated in between. 
Aside from my win2k box, which doesn't see much use any more, I also take care of a win2k box I set up for my mother about a year and a half ago. Haven't had any virus or adware(other then my brother installing the divx pro codec) problems with that one either, which is good since I can't be there to fix it right away if anything does go wrong with it. And up until about six months ago she and my youger brother who lives there were still primarliy using IE for browsing. Though I did switch her from outlook to netscape7 for her email quite a while before that. |
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dalek
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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windoze = suck
Linux = ROCKS!!!!
I have never bought or used windoze on my system. I was working on computers when 3.1 came out. When win 95 came out, I was working on something else, new job.
If Linux where to go away, I'd buy a Mac or do without. Buying windoze is like buying a car with no engine or wheels. It don't go anywhere or serve any purpose, except to give the script kiddies something to do. 
Windoze just doesn't have anything for me.
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OdinsDream
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| nastassja wrote: | this seems the typical "windows sux" post, lol
i agree linux is so great, and i am a proud user of gentoo.
but i also use windows sometimes as i have to use it at work, and also sometimes when i am at somebody's else home and it's not that bad.
i think that linux has it's good points, and windows has it's good points too.. there's no need to start a flamewar
in fact, i used windows at home years ago and also at work, and i've never been infected by a virus.. you know, if you open an email named "Re: your free program" and run the executable.. don't blame windows for it (also note that linux has rootkits and other malicious apps/exploits)
if you configure windows correctly it's not that bad, specially the new editions! but you know, it will never be linux |
Please, everyone, don't let this degrade into a flamewar, it was definitely not my intention. Perhaps my initial post was a bit angry-sounding, but that's the result of spending four hours trying to get any program at all, besides iexplore.exe, able to access the internet, or even to get windowsupdate.com working. I understand windows has its good points, but you have to admit, when you fresh-install XP and you're infected with Win32.Something.Gen literally four hours later, as was the case with my girlfriend's PC, without opening strange emails (she uses thunderbird) or visiting strange websites (she uses firefox), you have to question the OS. It's even harder to answer her question about why the most up-to-date Norton AntiVirus finds the virus, but cannot remove it, even in safemode with system restore turned off, exactly per the Norton website instructions. Seriously, what do I say to her? It's at the point where windows is beyond my debugging capability. I have no idea what to do with it when it gets messed up like that.
My main beef with windows is the inexplicable stuff - the problems that absolutely cannot be diagnosed. What's EventLog for if it doesn't tell you anything useful? I'm no slob when it comes to setting up a fresh install, I step through Group Policy, modifying plenty of items, I prune the Services list down appropriately, and I install software safeguards, and hardware firewalls. All of this, in my opinion, is well beyond what any normal user should be expected to do, and yet it's all useless.
But, seriously, I did not mean for this to be a flamewar thread, I hope it doesn't come to that. Keep it cheery!
My little sister recently had me set up linux on her laptop. Her favorite thing about it? Fortunes! She also likes how her friends say she "talks to the computer and it talks back" (that's their interpretation of what the commandline is for).
She loves the fact that she can type gphoto2 --get-all-files and suddenly her camera's contents are downloaded. She's impressed with the simplicity of it all, having no GUI to muck around with (that canon software for windows is really something else), and I don't think she's turned her laptop off in about a month.
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Trevoke
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Having been a long-time Windows user (I switched to Gentoo two weeks ago, and .. it's been running finally installed on my main box at home four days ago lol), I can tell that all of the problems you've been talking about in this thread *are* fixable.
The only issue? They are ... ODD fixes. One might call them workaround, only they really fix the problem.
What do you do if you have a problem in Linux? You fix it.
What do you do if you have a problem in Windows? You jump through hoops.
What's truly annoying (or is it the beauty of Windows?) is that you never get the same problem twice. Although they have gotten better since Windows 95 : now they have more error messages.
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OdinsDream
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevoke wrote: | | Having been a long-time Windows user (I switched to Gentoo two weeks ago, and .. it's been running finally installed on my main box at home four days ago lol), I can tell that all of the problems you've been talking about in this thread *are* fixable. |
I would -love- to fix the problem where only iexplore.exe is allowed to access the internet. I'm absolutely serious, I want this fixed. If you have some tips, I'd glady try them out. Everything works in safemode w/ networking, but nothing but IE works in regular mode. Nothing is starting up with windows (that I can control) but obviously there are some things that I can't stop, since the problem isn't fixed.
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Trevoke
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Haha, should have watched my big mouth 
Alright, well, to keep this thread on-topic, PM me the computer's system (Win2000, ok, then what? Service Packs, ... ? What hardware?).
And then re-state the problem, please (just so I can look at everything in one spot).
I'm not rich enough to actually re-create it here but I'll try to run my neurons through it.
Silly question: there's no firewall software, right?
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amiatrome
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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I feel that it all depends on the user.
Windows would perform very well if the user knows what he/she is doing. But because it's so easy to use, it caters to a lot of say... worms, trojans, firewalls, spyware unaware people. All those horror stories we seen and heard are probably belong to such users.
Linux will get bOrked by a ignorant user as well. But its not that easy to use, and thus repels such users and usually attracts people who more or less know what they are doing. As a result, less horror stories.
Agreed?
In all fairness, Gentoo is generally better than WinXP. But it really boils down to the user.
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OdinsDream
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| amiatrome wrote: | I feel that it all depends on the user.
Windows would perform very well if the user knows what he/she is doing. But because it's so easy to use, it caters to a lot of say... worms, trojans, firewalls, spyware unaware people. All those horror stories we seen and heard are probably belong to such users.
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But, take the case that started this whole rant of mine... these two users are competent, don't use questionable websites, don't use outloook/ie in my gf's case, or even install software on a regular basis. I took great care in setting up my grandfather's system, he has the latest virus scanner, windows updates are supposedly automatic, and yet it still gets messed up. He literally tried to start AIM one day and it just failed. I tried to investigate and discovered the other problems.
Should users really need to be adminstrators, too? Apple certainly has a different modus operandi in this regard. I used to think it was all users' fault too, believe me. I figured, there must have been something the user did to make the computer break, even if it was just downloading software that they didn't know would hurt it. I figured, well, they did something or they answered a question wrong. Yet, this is increasingly not the case in the Windows world with the prevalance of self-propogating worms that require no user intervention.
My girlfriend just called, she has four new viruses today, the result of merely Signing On To MSN. Literally. She signed on, and the viruses arrived. It's almost ridiculous enough to be funny.
I'm mailing her an FC2 DVD this afternoon.
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Trevoke
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I have a Windows XP which works very well. It's fast, it's stable, it runs for weeks on end. It's everything Microsoft said it would be.
I have very few games installed on it.
I use AVG (www.grisoft.com), a free (for home use) antivirus software to watch over my computer.
SP2 .. Is installed, doesn't bother me too much.
I use Firefox and Thunderbird.
I use Litestep, not the Explorer shell.
I have Office XP installed (and I discovered last week, there *IS* an officeupdate just like windowsupdate!!! Why don't we get a link to it, HUH?)
But the truth is.. As sad as it is... A computer with a fresh Windows install should not be allowed on the Internet until it has an up-to-date antivirus + firewall installed.
And the first place it should go is windowsupdate. That's how weak Windows is nowadays :/
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asph
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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i think that windows has/had it's role in the computers history.. it makes computing easy for home users, this is why the 90% or whatever of the computers run windows.
I know this is not what any average linux user i looking for, i just recognize that windows strategy has been long far better than mac's or unix (i mean looking to the market, to the MONEY!)
looking it from this point, windows is the best product a firm ever made for the customers..
and to those "i never used windows", i would tell them that i prefer to know about several OS, specially if 90% of the computers use it! Then you can make your own choices for YOUR computers, as we all done using gentoo linux.
about the security, i think that a missconfigured linux box is not THAT secure compared to a windows box with few services and a firewall, as exploits for services are being released every hour (and some distros (not gentoo) have a lot of services on by default.
Try going to a firm to ask for a job (computer related) and tell them you don't know how to use windows, that you are a l33t uberlinux0r.. they won't hire you. If the major part of the computers run a OS, you have to know it, as they will be your customers (i mean for the computing related firms).
Now, from my personal point of view i prefer linux on my computers, because of it's power and flexibility. I feel impotent in windows when somethings fails and you can do nothing to fix it, just wait for microsoft to release a patch.
We are all in the same ship, i just point the enemies strengths 
[please, if you are going to post things like "winbugs sux, i only use linux" or "windows is for lusers" or "linux rox0rs" please do it in dustbin forum, i am doing a constructive and logical argument here and expect the same kind of answer] 
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OdinsDream
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevoke wrote: |
...
But the truth is.. As sad as it is... A computer with a fresh Windows install should not be allowed on the Internet until it has an up-to-date antivirus + firewall installed.
And the first place it should go is windowsupdate. That's how weak Windows is nowadays :/ |
And here's the catch-22. My girlfriend is stuck with dialup right now, hence, there is no longer a hardware firewall. She doesn't have a very new XP installation cd (it's actually a recovery cd) so it doesn't have slipstreamed service packs.
So, to get to windowsupdate, she has to first install XP, then sign on, and go to the website. By this time, she's infected, even with an up-to-date Norton AntiVirus (hey, it takes a few seconds to download those updates, you know...) that is completely useless in removing the infection, even going exactly by their online instructions for this exact virus.
So, if the worm infects your computer in a matter of seconds, which is her situation, and you aren't able to build your own custom slipstream installation CD (is this even permissible under the EULA?), then you're practically, metaphorically, and literally screwed.
It's like this, if I give you:
* One blank laptop
* One XP Installation CD (no service packs)
* One dialup MSN Account
...and you can't install a functioning computer system because of this catch-22, there's a serious problem. What do you do? Download some free antivirus software? Okay, step one... get online. Whoops, got a worm. Download a firewall? Whoops... step one, get online.
Windows doesn't suck, it's just not practically useable.
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asph
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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maybe you can boot with a knoppix cd and download the service pack.. also there are guide's to make your own windows with service pack included bootable cd's, documented in msdn
or, you can simply disable the rpc service (the service affected by that worm) and go to windows update
so its not like it's not usable.. you have to know how to use it, as all OS
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Trevoke
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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I actually trust the antivirus at www.grisoft.com : the first thing it does is check ITSELF for viruses. Now *that* is efficient.
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amiatrome
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| OdinsDream wrote: | Download some free antivirus software? Okay, step one... get online. Whoops, got a worm. Download a firewall? Whoops... step one, get online.
Windows doesn't suck, it's just not practically useable. |
I have got a lot of friends who face this problem. Told 'em to save the firewall installer in a different partition. Then reinstall windows. Yes. I admit it's stupid.
Helpful Windows users practices - by amiatrome
1. Have at least 2 partitions. C: purely for Windows. D: purely for data.
2. Save at least firewall and antivirus installers in D: at all times. (although I take it a a little further and keep all my installers in D:/installers. Last time I checked, it's 20GB in size.)
3. Use Norton Ghost to create an image of a freshly installed windows. That way, you never have to really reinstall windows again. Restoring from an image takes less than 2 mins!
4. Use very good but not so popular firewalls like Outpost, antiviruses like Kaspersky and Trojan Defense Suite.
Just my experience.
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OdinsDream
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| nastassja wrote: | maybe you can boot with a knoppix cd and download the service pack.. also there are guide's to make your own windows with service pack included bootable cd's, documented in msdn
or, you can simply disable the rpc service (the service affected by that worm) and go to windows update
so its not like it's not usable.. you have to know how to use it, as all OS |
Please... surely you can see the failure of this line of thinking. I can be confident that when I install Gentoo, I'm not automatically open to the latest attacks because I've yet to install any services. It's extremely unlikely that a default Gentoo install is immediately vulnerable seconds after plugging it into the network.
Not so with Windows. It should be shipped with no services enabled, and a big red button that says "Go Visit windowsupdate.com, install everything, then HIT THIS BUTTON." Then it would start the services, which, I don't know, are they even needed? That, or the CD should come in shrink-wrap with a giant red label declaring: | Quote: | Warning: By installing this software in its default configuration, your computer and all data on it is instantly vulnerable to external attack from the internet. Do not use this software in its default configuration to access the internet.
For more information, visit www.windowsupdate.com (oh the irony) |
It's not a matter of "knowing how to use" the OS in this case, it's knowing, through extremely vigilant technical research, what the latest worms are, which services they affect, and how to disable the services, that is, if they can even be disabled at all. What about LSASS? Can't kill that without crashing the entire system.
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Trevoke
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PowerFactor
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Pretty good articles there. I can't believe they said DNS and DHPC clients are unnecessary for the vast majority of home PCs though. |
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Trevoke
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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Well, are they necessary for the average Windows user?
One computer.. Plugged into a cable modem... Or a modem.. What's the use then?
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PowerFactor
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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If the computer is connected to the internet at all, even over PPP link, you need a DNS client unless you do all your browsing by ip address. And I'd still need a DHCP client even if I connected my comp directly to my cable modem. Unless I used the usb link perhaps, I'm not sure how it works in that case.
EDIT: Never thought about it before, but was wondering why windows would need a separate service for DNS resolution. Win9x didn't and neither does linux. So I looked into it and the "DNS client" they are talking about is the DNS caching service, like nscd on linux. Would have helped if they had made that clear. It's not strictly necessary. But it makes browsing a lot nicer if your on dialup or your isp has sluggish nameservers, like roadrunner did when I was using them. |
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Archangel1
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| OdinsDream wrote: |
Not so with Windows. It should be shipped with no services enabled, and a big red button that says "Go Visit windowsupdate.com, install everything, then HIT THIS BUTTON." Then it would start the services, which, I don't know, are they even needed? That, or the CD should come in shrink-wrap with a giant red label ... |
Good idea... but most of the services are pretty well built in now aren't they? You can't just disable them, and even if you did Windows Update now requires three services running (one of which is Automatic Updates... yes Bill, I *need* that running), and I bet at least one of those has a dependency on RPC.
Personally I've had enough of being told that I have to update my machine constantly. Especially if that involves turning on a "service" (pretty loose use of that word) to allow Microsoft to install things behind my back. I don't see why I should have to have a firewall and virus scanner running (and updatng themselves constantly) just to browse the internet.
Anyone remember the days when if you got a virus you knew it was because you'd opened an annakournikova.jpg.vbs? Hence anyone with half a functional brain didn't get viruses just by not running them.
I miss those days... |
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OdinsDream
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| Archangel1 wrote: |
...
Personally I've had enough of being told that I have to update my machine constantly.
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You know, I'm beginning to think a lot of Windows sys "admins" just like the idea of going through the hoops, somehow it makes them feel like they've conquered some problem. At work, an entire afternoon every week is devoted to it! Come on!
I asked the guy if he was updating because of the newly-released jpeg exploit, he had no idea what I was talking about. I said "you know, when you update, and it says it's downloading a GDI checker... that's to..." and he cut me off, "oh, oh yeah, geedie, i got that one"
Completely oblivious.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| Actually people, Windows' popularity owes a big thanks to DOS, Apple, and the computer companies. DOS provided them what they needed to make MSDOS, and Apple provided them a nice little starting GUI to base Windows off. Then companies such as Compaq and Dell deliver the final blow by installing Windows on every system they sell. Trust me, Linux isn't hard to use unless you make it hard. I say this because my mom uses it with GNOME and has no problems. |
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