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isso
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Joined: 03 Oct 2004
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 Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 3:40 pm Post subject: whats the reason behind not creating an easy installer |
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Peace upon you all
the question that i need an answer to ,is what the reason of keeping getoo without an easy installer and widespread it to all linux enthusiast ??
I really admire this distribution but i am not ready to spend one or two days installing .
everything in this life is geared to make life easier ,so why the Gentoo people are walking in the opposite direction
regards |
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ewan.paton
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Joined: 29 Jul 2003
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Location: glasgow, scotland
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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ever hear the phrase nothing worthwhile is simple
on a serious note most gentoo users start off wanting an installer till they see the advantages not having one has such as more power to the user and a usefull filter for keeping gentoo users as a more technical base
theres nothing to stop anyone writing one even you but as the devs are volunteers and work on what interests them and they consider important, which to most gentoo users isnt an installer
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Deranger
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Joined: 26 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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In my opinion, Gentoo isn't hard to install at all, it's actually easy. Gentoo isn't meant to be n00b distro like Fedora or SuSE. I don't see any point for creating GUI installer for Gentoo. You might want to check out GLIS (Gentoo Linux Install Script)...
CLI installation provides much more choices than GUI installer, that's the main thing for not having GUI installer. And like I said, Gentoo isn't meant for n00bs.
GUI installer cannot replace CLI based installation 
Last edited by Deranger on Sun Oct 03, 2004 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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miya
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Joined: 15 Apr 2004
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Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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what would it be an 'easy installer' ?
it would really help if someone did some scripts to automate gentoo installation. Even better if it gets installed automatically on several machines with different hardware. |
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LostSon
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Joined: 21 Nov 2003
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Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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I personally like the way gentoo installs give the user all the power right from scratch with no annoying gui or automated processes getting in the way. Just print out the install docs ahead of time and follow them and you will b fine. The docs are great here and the ppl on the forums are also great. So you have 2 great resources at your disposal.  |
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Deranger
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, but it's impossible to automate it  You can use same install on many computers, if you use more generic optimizations (like in LiveCD)...
Last edited by Deranger on Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:10 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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isso,
It shouldn't take any more than 30 min at the keyboard to install Gentoo when you get the hang of it. The PC may take days to compile but it doesn't need you there.
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WhyteWolf
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Joined: 01 May 2002
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Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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I think the problem lies in the fact the easyer the install the less choice you get ...
creating auto install scripts would be nice ... but would in fact take control of the system away ... and sence it removes control should be something that the person should make for them selves
ok now that being said the gentoo install is very easy it just ushaly takes awhile but doens't need to with things like grp and stage 3 ... and if you need a graphical interface for portage they do exist
and hell who needs to print the install instructions ... the gentoo disks come with links and 90% of the time you have some sort of network access
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Thomas Phipps
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WhyteWolf
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Joined: 01 May 2002
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Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Oktane wrote: | | Yes, but it's impossible to automate it |
hehe impossible no ... difficult yes ... nothing is impossable
hardest part is the part where ya chroot ... but just dump a second script into the chroot env ... have it called by the chroot instead of bash ... {should work in theory}
anyway I digress
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klavrynd
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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if you don't want to think about what you are doing, you can just follow the installation guide ...
and as said before if all you want is easy peasy looks-like-windows sleazy, you can go use suse or some other nobrain distro |
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isso
n00b
Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | if all you want is easy peasy looks-like-windows sleazy, you can go use suse or some other nobrain distro |
I think this kind of mentality make me feel pity on you man .
what the difference betweeen following the installation guide step by step with hundreds of command lines and between a nice GUI easy to follow .
do you want me to beleive that when you install Gentoo , you are thinking of every command line ?!! |
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Deranger
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Joined: 26 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| isso wrote: | | Quote: | | if all you want is easy peasy looks-like-windows sleazy, you can go use suse or some other nobrain distro |
I think this kind of mentality make me feel pity on you man .
what the difference betweeen following the installation guide step by step with hundreds of command lines and between a nice GUI easy to follow .
do you want me to beleive that when you install Gentoo , you are thinking of every command line ?!! |
What's the difference? The difference is this: you'll get exactly what you want! Nothing more, nothing less. GUI might be nice and n00b-friendly, but CLI is the way to go
I don't understand your last sentence
Last edited by Deranger on Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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klavrynd
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| isso wrote: | | Quote: | | if all you want is easy peasy looks-like-windows sleazy, you can go use suse or some other nobrain distro |
I think this kind of mentality make me feel pity on you man .
what the difference betweeen following the installation guide step by step with hundreds of command lines and between a nice GUI easy to follow .
do you want me to beleive that when you install Gentoo , you are thinking of every command line ?!! |
a) you might actually learn something; instead of clicking your way through some nice graphical screens you gain a little insight in what goes where. I like to know or at least have an idea of what i'm doing.
What happens when you're used to nice installation dialogs and your X decides to stop or some ncurses call causes a segfault and you're lost in the void that then is your console
b) The same goes for "why don't you just use binaries instead of compiling everything from source" , if you don't want to put in the least bit of work i don't think gentoo is a distro for you
c) ok let's suppose there is an easy clickety-click interface, after that not every program you're going to run has a nice wizard that guides you through, nor will every program you want have an easy installation. |
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isso
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Joined: 03 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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ok
let 's give examples ...
have you heard of Mepis ?
check on Distrowatch and see its popularity >>>a couple of points and it will catch Gentoo ,you know why ? because of avery simple installation gui , so anyone who would like debian but doesn't want to waste many hours installing Debian will go with Mepis .
I think the mentality of not making things easier is "we are superior " , " command line is for GEEK and we are GEEK " and " we don't want to look like microsoft "
I am not flaiming on anybody her but i am concerned ,,that's all. |
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piffle
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | hehe impossible no ... difficult yes ... nothing is impossable
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Speaking as a physicist for a moment, some things are, in fact, impossible. . .
Now. I too wouldn't mind adding some automation to the gentoo in stall process. Why? Because I do it so damn rarely. I ran Gentoo on my desktop for a year before I got my laptop. When I put it on my laptop I had forgotten most everything about the install, and the printed docs were not handy after a 1200 mile move. I had to spend quite a bit of time remembering and digging up things to install Gentoo on my laptop. I am sure I will the next time, too. And you know what? I'm a busy guy, I'd rather not have to spend that time. I don't install regularly, so it's just not a skill that's wothwhile for me to maintain at my fingertips.
So, I wouldn't mind a nice guided install process. And now I am speaking as someone with over a decade of personal and professional experience using Linux and Unix. |
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WhyteWolf
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Joined: 01 May 2002
Posts: 168
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| isso wrote: | ok
let 's give examples ...
have you heard of Mepis ?
check on Distrowatch and see its popularity >>>a couple of points and it will catch Gentoo ,you know why ? because of avery simple installation gui , so anyone who would like debian but doesn't want to waste many hours installing Debian will go with Mepis .
I think the mentality of not making things easier is "we are superior " , " command line is for GEEK and we are GEEK " and " we don't want to look like microsoft "
I am not flaiming on anybody her but i am concerned ,,that's all. |
ok ... thats all nice and good for them ... but this isn't a popularity contest
just because you want a easy gui install doens't mean EVERYONE wants one ... and honestly ... tell me how to double click on something like
| Code: | | emerge xine 2> fifo > /dev/null ; grep libmpg fifo | xargs -l1 emerge |
and still have it as changable as it is
{btw this is not a real working example there are defiantly a couple of steps takin out, this isn't the best example either}
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Thomas Phipps
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ewan.paton
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Joined: 29 Jul 2003
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Location: glasgow, scotland
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| isso wrote: | ok
let 's give examples ...
have you heard of Mepis ?
check on Distrowatch and see its popularity >>>a couple of points and it will catch Gentoo ,you know why ? because of avery simple installation gui , so anyone who would like debian but doesn't want to waste many hours installing Debian will go with Mepis .
I think the mentality of not making things easier is "we are superior " , " command line is for GEEK and we are GEEK " and " we don't want to look like microsoft "
I am not flaiming on anybody her but i am concerned ,,that's all. |
nobodys arguing the gentoo install is a load cd and click buttons distro but i seriously doubt i can load a knoppix cd and install them via a chroot letting me have a fully functional desktop during instalation and one tweeked to my personal preferences after install is complete
gentoo users tend to be some of the most friendly and humble ive seen, try criticising *bsd or debian and see the reaction.
nobodys forcing you to use a distro that only costs you the price of a blank cd and internet conection yet if you have a real issue you will recive a lot of suport form a wide range of users knowlage about a vast amount of stuff
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WhyteWolf
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| piffle wrote: | | Quote: | hehe impossible no ... difficult yes ... nothing is impossable
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Speaking as a physicist for a moment, some things are, in fact, impossible. . .
Now. I too wouldn't mind adding some automation to the gentoo in stall process. Why? Because I do it so damn rarely. I ran Gentoo on my desktop for a year before I got my laptop. When I put it on my laptop I had forgotten most everything about the install, and the printed docs were not handy after a 1200 mile move. I had to spend quite a bit of time remembering and digging up things to install Gentoo on my laptop. I am sure I will the next time, too. And you know what? I'm a busy guy, I'd rather not have to spend that time. I don't install regularly, so it's just not a skill that's wothwhile for me to maintain at my fingertips.
So, I wouldn't mind a nice guided install process. And now I am speaking as someone with over a decade of personal and professional experience using Linux and Unix. |
ok ... I have a connfession ... I have never printed the docs ... the are included on the gentoo discs ... plus if you want to make sure they are up to date there is also links on the discs ...
if you need the docs on the same screen as what you are doing ... screen is also included ... once in screen and started another term with in screen you can split screen and have the docs on the top and what you are doing on the lower half ...
as for if anything is possable consider this ...
reality is nuthing more then perseption
perseption is nuthing more then what we make of the input ... input is nuthing more then what our body tells us is out there
so tell me this ... if your holding a rock ... how do you know you holding a rock beyond the input
you skin tells you it's hard ... your eyes tell you it's a rock ...
a nice qoute I saw once ..
reality is nuthing more then a colective hunch
ps sorry about the spelling errors
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killfire
l33t
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 618
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: whats the reason behind not creating an easy installer |
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| isso wrote: | Peace upon you all
the question that i need an answer to ,is what the reason of keeping getoo without an easy installer and widespread it to all linux enthusiast ??
I really admire this distribution but i am not ready to spend one or two days installing .
everything in this life is geared to make life easier ,so why the Gentoo people are walking in the opposite direction
regards |
linux is and (i hope) always will be a hackers os. this means you do things yourself. redhat. suse. mandrake... are starting to perver this: you are losing control over what happens, in the interest of user friendlyness. eventually, it will reach a point of windows. granted, it will have a better code base, but eventually it will be so filled with bloat and crap that people will start something new. the rpm system is an example of this bloat and crap.
gentoo (in my case) is that something new. its clean, its simple, its bleeding edge... its everything i want. and to start sugar coating it with gui installers, and sheep instructions would be to start turning it into another one of those crappy bloated oses.
mac os x is a great example. i have it installed ona separate partition, and though it has bsd as a base, it is so filled with useless gui crap that it is insanely slow, and hangs on things all the time. i am so sick of that stupid beach ball spinning thing.
if we let gentoo turn into that, a good base with a ton of crap on top, then it wond be the os it is.
you want gentoos functionality, take the whole package. you want a gui install, and a little guy to help you every step of the way, go find fmandrake, suse....
what ive done for installs, is string stuff together. aside from chrooting and partitioning, i think everything can be done in a string of command && command2 && ...commandN format... try it out.. its not too hard.
and if you want to make it nice and easy, set up networking, turn on ssh, and do the install from another computer. it doesnt even have to be a linux box, you could use putty on a windows machine, and macosx has ssh...
just my 2c
killfire
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: whats the reason behind not creating an easy installer |
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| isso wrote: | | what the reason of keeping getoo without an easy installer and widespread it to all linux enthusiast ?? |
Who said there was a reason not to?
Gentoo Installer
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malloc
l33t
Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 762
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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FFS...
Boys and Girls didn't you saw the "Don't feed the trolls" sign on the way in? 
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WhyteWolf
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Joined: 01 May 2002
Posts: 168
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| malloc wrote: | FFS...
Boys and Girls didn't you saw the "Don't feed the trolls" sign on the way in? |
guess someone tore it down ... ::hides hack saw::
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Thomas Phipps
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placeholder
Advocate
Joined: 07 Feb 2004
Posts: 2500
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| I do not know why there are any negative thoughts about a GUI installer for Gentoo. I do not want to use one myself, but if other people do then the choice should be there seeing that Gentoo is supposed to be about choice, after all. It is not like it is a useless project, and as long as I can install it from the command line, I see no problem with it. |
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Verted
Guru
Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 480
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: whats the reason behind not creating an easy installer |
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I used to feel the same way, before I actually installed it. Now I think Killfire has just about summed it up:
| killfire wrote: |
linux is and (i hope) always will be a hackers os. this means you do things yourself. redhat. suse. mandrake... are starting to perver this: you are losing control over what happens, in the interest of user friendlyness. eventually, it will reach a point of windows. granted, it will have a better code base, but eventually it will be so filled with bloat and crap that people will start something new. the rpm system is an example of this bloat and crap.
gentoo (in my case) is that something new. its clean, its simple, its bleeding edge... its everything i want. and to start sugar coating it with gui installers, and sheep instructions would be to start turning it into another one of those crappy bloated oses.
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placeholder
Advocate
Joined: 07 Feb 2004
Posts: 2500
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyone who thinks that Linux is not "user friendly" and Windows is user friendly should have went to the Ohio Linux fest and listened to Deryck Hodge. |
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