"Are we losing users to Gentoo?"

mslay · n00b Joined: 19 May 2003 Posts: 40 Location: France

The USE flags and all gentoo ideas are really great, but the real problems of gentoo when it comes to enterprises is a lot of software big players won't support gentoo as os...
Think about having an Oracle database or DB2 or a SAP R3 system on gentoo, even on stable gentoo...

I say Oracle and SAP and DB2, I ran currently these on my laptop(not concurently) and everything works well, as single user for and oracle db, or sap, or db2, I have no problems, but I think is not a good idea for an 24x7 database to run on a system which is cutting edge...

Don't take me wrong, but mission-critical applications must run on a well-tested and confirmed OSes and kernels.

As far as 2.4.18 or 2.4.19 is certified by Oracle and SAP, one can have a mission-critical business running on top of this kernel...but this is not the case for the latest versions gentoo is comming out...

You can imagine a file server with 2500 users transfering files, crashed by a bug in the latest or nearly latest version of samba or nfs...brrr...

The hardened gentoo and stable gentoo are good points, you can nearly have a base to go for something one day...

But Suse, Redhat and UnitedLinux having to sort patches and certify theirs distros with big software names is great...this way, one can use certified and supported software for his mission-critical servers and having gentoo on this admin workstation...

Senso · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:55 pm Post subject:

kitano · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 4:22 pm Post subject:

i agree with mslay, if i got his point right.

even with a productive cms-server (apache) I cannot decide pro gentoo without headache.
first, who would support it, if i get ill. (since gentoo is for freaks only, here in germany)
second, what if it had to be scaled in future days, having something like an oracle db, or similar...

i think gentoo is for development, even great for that kind of stuff. but if it comes to productive business, it's way too young.

at the moment, i'd prefer redhat, or even suse.
i don't think that debian should get much of a headache, only the geeks love gentoo!

that's the main reason, why I run gentoo. I love to play and install and change code, love to be up2date, give the box something to do the whole day long, like compiling, running seti etc.

I would _not_ do that on one of my life-servers

BTW: while i was writing this, ithought about correctspelling the plural of the word servers to servres (since it's english, no one would mind... *g*)
then it would be the same back and forth
-> very geeky
... anyone supporting my idea?
_________________
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only in case you were going to ask what it is...

mslay · n00b Joined: 19 May 2003 Posts: 40 Location: France

yes, right, this is the main idea, gentoo is great for any kind of administrator's workstation (system admins, DB admins, etc) but when you comes to mission-critical business...no business user will understand you need to change some flags to recompile one ebuild because ...

But I love Gentoo because I've learned more about linux than with other distros...

meta · n00b Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 45 Location: Cambridge MA

My story's a little different.

The main reason I decided to try Gentoo was that I was building a system with a VIA EPIA C3 processor. The C3 is more than a Pentium, but not 100% compatible with Pentium 4 or Athlon, and since it's relatively low power, optimization is an issue. Obviously none of the binary distributions ship C3 versions; it's 386 or Pentium/Athlon.

I figured because Gentoo would let me pick the exact compiler flags I needed, I'd be able to end up with a Linux system optimized for VIA C3, rather than having to run something for generic 386.

The secondary reason for Gentoo was that I wanted to have the machine be an MP3 server and jukebox, with no unnecessary junk on the hard drive. I felt it would be easier to start with almost nothing and just install what I needed, than start with (say) RedHat and try to put it on a diet.

I expected Gentoo to be hell to install, because I'd heard it was very "bleeding edge", and I'd found Debian to be hell to install even without doing a full compiler bootstrap. I mean, Debian even manage to make it hell to download the CD image... So, imagine my surprise when I found that Gentoo was way, way easier to install than Debian. (I never did get Debian unstable working.)

And portage is just wonderful. It's not just the functionality, it's the fact that someone with design sense obviously thought carefully about what the user interface should be before implementing anything. It's so simple it makes apt-get look hard.

If Gentoo didn't exist, I'd be running Debian, installed using Knoppix, so I suppose I'm one of the Debian users they lost.

Having said that, I'm afraid I spend several days trying to get Gentoo with EVMS working stably on a quad SMP system--and failed. So I don't think Gentoo is quite there for servers yet.

Summary: Gentoo is my favorite Linux for desktop and home server use. RedHat is the only real option for mission critical servers, unfortunately. For dummies, Mandrake 9.1 is good.

I've also tried Xandros, which would be great for dummies except that everything is installed in weird places, so it's impossible to (for example) download a Mozilla update and install it without breaking all the bundled browser plugins. Good luck finding where they've hidden WINE, too.

SlCKB0Y · Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:19 am Post subject:

ba747heavy · Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:32 am Post subject:

Liathus · Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:36 am Post subject:

Well... if gentoo just used technologies from debian and freeBSD, they only took the good ones. And they used them to make a system that is better then both of them IMO.

madchaz · Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:16 pm Post subject:

well, personaly, I came here from Mandrake. I had mandrake 8.2 running as my main server. But as time went by and KDE3 came out, I wanted it. Problem was, it's next to imposible to install on mandrake 8.2 and it won't play along with realvnc in 9.0 or 9.1

I was also tired of not being sure what was running on my machine. Cooworker sujested I try gentoo. Loved the power it gave me. I have control of what's installed, I get software the exact way the developer intended it to act and it "just works"

portage is awesome. Talk about simple install.

The only turn off for me is compilation time. And that's not that much of an issue. I just do something else while it works.
_________________
Someone asked me once if I suffered from mental illness. I told him I enjoyed every second of it.
www.madchaz.com A small candle of a website. As my lab specs on it.

Savve · n00b Joined: 23 Aug 2003 Posts: 19

I buy cars with turbos, I take out the old turbo, insert a new bigger fatter one, I make sure my chip is up to date and I charge that turbo with higher pressure then recommended. I get the fattest rims and accessories I can affoard.

I want cutting edge and I hope gentoo keeps balancing stability with cutting edge. See I like the freedom that gentoo will provide me with. Instead of saying "my way or download it yourself", they say "my way or just simply unmask it or make your own ebuild etc".

Hyped? Yeah, just like some people still are calling the internet a hype. Good things are supposed to be hyped, the problem is when complete crap get's hyped, and I'm sure we can all say that gentoo is one of lifes good things.

To me gentoo represents freedom, I'm free to choose if I want a stable system or if I want to optimize things. The day there is something that gives me more freedom and that is better in every way then gentoo I will use that. But since the community seems scatterd with very bright people I doubt that it will happen anytime soon.

See, I can work on my car for weeks to get a little more torque, so by choise sacrificing (keeping GRP in mind) some time to compile my system just the way I want it, to me is a treat.

My image reflects who I am, and I feel that gentoo's best advantages is not a single system, such as portage, but the actual mentality behind all the development. In that aspect gentoos image reflect who it is, and how it is going to develop in the future.

The gentoo-mentality is what is behind the creation of such a great community, portage, use-flags and all the nifty new things that will come to us, the greatfull users.

The main reason to why I'm using gentoo is because I indentify with the gentoo mentality, I feel secure in that with a good culture behind the scenes, it will spread and be visible to anyone using the product (or process as someone prefered to call it).
_________________
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I fell in love with the cow :/

atom · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:28 am Post subject:

operating systems. you've got the mac users, windows users, linux users, and even smaller more obscure systems exist. i've tried many. the first computer i bought was a mac clone, good old power computing. then an athlon followed that, and i have been x86 since. my pc days used to be controlled by microsoft, but now the only microsoft my computer sees is through a vmware window.

even that i don't use very much.

i'm taking a guess that i discovered linux in about 1996. back then, the options were fewer, and linux itself was not very mature. i tried redhat and slackware. i didn't really like either, so i stuck with my windows 95. over the years i tried linux again a couple times, but usually redhat after that. i never liked redhat. not even enough to try and run it for an extended period of time. so i gave up on linux. upgraded from win 98 to 2k to xp. about two years ago, i decided it was time to give linux another shot. i knew i didn't like redhat, so i tried some others. i don't remember exactly what i tried, but i know i tried debian. wasn't too fond of it, but considered using it for a server. then about a year and a half ago, i discovered gentoo. finally, i found what i was looking for. easy upgrades, complete control.

i have tried many distributions. in fact, i still install distributions just to try them out. see if they can compete with gentoo. none have been able to. sure, some give you and easy install with a nice desktop. after that though, you are stuck in rpm hell or some other horrible package system. i could try and list all that i have tried, but there is no reason. i have tried all the BSDs, and while i like them better than many linux dists, they don't do what i need for a desktop environment. freebsd comes the closest. i just wasnt inspired enough to set up my whole system with freebsd after having a gentoo box exactly where i wanted it.

who needs a pretty desktop anyway? i'm simple. i run openbox3. have a couple icons using idesk, try to stick with gtk2 programs, and i'm done as far as UI goes.

i have one point to make in this rant. no operating system is for everyone. don't criticize somebody for using a mac when you run windows. don't for somebody running redhat when you run gentoo. it goes on and on. too often in my life i have heard people doing the 'my operating system is better than yours' game. it annoys me. there aren't many systems i dislike, but those that i do dislike (redhat) do not affect my opinion of somebody.

i was at a local LUG meeting a couple weeks ago, and they were ripping on gentoo. one of the leaders (a redhat guy) said 'i would like somebody who runs gentoo to come in here and show us the actual speed optimization that you get from running gentoo'. since i seemed to be the only gentoo person in the audience i had to speak up. i told him that i don't use gentoo for the speed optimization. i use it for the control it gives me. i use it because i know what is going on in the system. i configure the system from scratch, not just taking some corporations word for how things should be. there are great support channels, including this forum. i'm willing to spend some time compiling something, because i know it is going to work. i don't have to worry about if i have all the dependencies of a certain rpm i have installed.

hmm...thats a long post. oh well. go out and try a different operating system. if not only to see what all the hype is about.

-atom

what i run.

desktop/mainmachine: gentoo
firewall/gateway/dns: openbsd (sparc style

hometheater/freevo: gentoo
roomatesbox: suse with xd2

brucifer.org · n00b Joined: 22 Jun 2003 Posts: 1

I've been running various linux distro's and bsd's for a while, trying to find something that worked the way I wanted it to. I liked where linux was headed but didn't care for rpm management, apt was better. When I seen that bsd lovers would like portage I got curious. Gentoo is my main system w/a FreeBSD 5.0-RELEASE server. I have a laptop also, currently running FreeBSD but my gentoo cd is on the way.

I will also agree that the forums here are great, a positive, helpful environment - not an alpha-geek contest.

MaJor_PerMutation · n00b Joined: 23 Jul 2003 Posts: 61

I'm still new to linux at all and even newer to gentoo.

Starting with an Amiga (RIP)I loved to work at cli/shell.

When switiching to IBM-compatible one's I run Win9x until Win98SE, the most you can run on a P233Mhz with 128MB RAM (I thought). When I read the lifecycle of Win98 would die in a few months I searched for alternatives (again, I regularly searched, but never actually switched).

So I killed my Win and tried to install Debian...all of the netinst-bootdisks to be exactly, but neither of them recognized my 60GB on my raid controller and the help of debian users in irc was...erm....

"Try 'xyz' boot disk."
"I tried all."
[silence]

A friend (and linux freak since years) then made me try RH 8.x(?), because in his opinion it was "as easy as windows".
Yes, RH was easy, but as a total newbie, i totally overkilled my poor old P233 with installing the so called 'desktop-system" install. Several weeks later RH9 came out, I updated and my system worked, but slow as a lazy snail.

And RH-Users on IRC were not really newbie-friendly, too.

'Problem: updatedb is getting started twice by crown, once at 02:00 and once at 04:00"
"psaux it to find out"
"Looked it up in gnome-system monitor, isn't that almost the same?"
"gnome-system monitor? why not psaux?"
"What is psaux?"
followed by laughing, hitting, biting me ;-)

for not using "ps"
[conclusion: debian-users are just as arrogant as rh-user ;-)

]
After that RH9 broke my system 'cause I tried to do an 'minimal-install'.
...and I killed it.

Searching for a new distro I recognized that my linux-freak friend had mentioned gentoo but mentioned the compile times were not worth the benefits, in other words he said: Don't use it.

You know how children are, say: don't do this and they do it. ;-)

So the things, that make me staying with gentoo:
The install doc which is, even for a newbie starting at stage1, easy as it could be.
The following docs, especially the kernel and use-flag docs.
Short: the documentation

most important: This forum, it's search function and the imo really newbie friendly users. This is what I call a great communtiy. I love it. Just brilliant. Until now there was no problem which I didn't find an answere for or at least some 'alternative ways' or new ideas.

one word: USE :-)

(and again, with ufed easy easy easy)

another word: optimization (compiler and system, I'm just compiling for my system and I'm just compiling what I want)

So it is even on my machine possible to run mozilla (pure, with all mozno*-flags (another big plus)), evolution, openoffice, xchat, xmms (playing mp3-radio-stream), gimp and a 'emerge xfce' all together. I wonder if it had killed my RH9-System? :-)

Some more 'philosophical' reasons:
Gentoo made me learn more about linux in a few days than 2 RHs in few weeks/months.

So, it's like back to the roots for me, whener I can I swtich to console again, just like in 'good old amiga times'. ;-)

Gentoo took away my "fear" of linux, I fiddle around all the time (I hate systems where I can do nothing, which just run ;-)

), play around with portage, test new packages etc. etc. etc.
(I never tried to touch RH undergrounds, frightened of braking my system.)
Short: for me it's perfect combination of full control, easyness for newbies, and fun trying out new things and tweaking your system to your personal likes

Last one:
Someone asked me to help with xchat, he is running debian stable, which meant, he is running XChat 1.8.9! (me running 2.0.3 and it's stable as a rock)...sorry, but had to laugh first before helpig him. ;-)

Short: actual packages, even without ~arch set

one negative: genkernel
sorry, but building a kernel "automatically" is pervert imho ;-)

So, for me there are enough reasons to prefer gentoo over RH & Co. and Debian & Co. and I think more and more will switch to Gentoo, not only from Debian, but that's just my opinion.

I hope I will someday know enough about linux & gentoo to give some of the help back I got.

Marcel J.P.M.

----
"What do you want to emerge today?"

cbreaker · Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:05 am Post subject:

These forums are very very good. I don't think enough people realize the benefit of a full web based forum system!

None of the other distributions I've used have a decent way to communicate with other users. Sure, there's the mailing lists, but they can be a pain in the butt. Searching mailing list archives is usually painful and difficult to locate the information you want.

Why do I run Gentoo? Because it's *EASY* to use. Yes, that's right!

Really. I have a friend who's not very linux savy. I helped him install Gentoo on one of his machines. Without learning much else, he's able to maintain and upgrade his system (primarily a firewall with some x applications running) all by himself. Gentoo is for advanced users? Says who?

The gentoo init-script system is grand, and portage is fantastic. For me, it's not application performance or even custom building apps from source. It's just *easy*. If there were to be a binary-based gentoo with the same portage-type system I would probably use that on everything including the machines at work. It could be done.

As machines get faster and faster the compilation times will get smaller and less of an issue.

I am a Gentoo fan. I recommend it to everyone. When there's a problem, I can find the solution quickly and easily here on the forums.

Gentoo is hype? I hope so! Anything this good should be hyped up. Sure, the idea of portage and a lot of the other features in Gentoo are not new ideas. Who cares. This is the first time it's all been put together to make something great.

Us Gentoo users don't dislike people who run other distributions; we choose to use Gentoo instead.

linuxknight · Last edited by linuxknight on Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:04 am; edited 1 time in total

You may think that Gentoo is all for hype, but look at Redhat or Mandrake. People who know nothing can run it, and only like it because its easy control center and binary system. Personally, Debian is quite old, and will remain very outdated. Woody seems very uncurrent with the 2.2.18 stock kernel, and the old Glib. The packages that you get with apt-get are: 1.) outdated. 2.) mostly broken 3.) require deps not avaliable 4.) smells faintly of Slackware with more problems.

I started with Icepack Linux 1.0 in 2001, switched to Mandrake 8.0 after, then switched to Redhat 7.2, then switched to Slackware, and finally to Gentoo.

Gentoo is much more optimized in my opinion, it has more support, benefits any hardware circumstances, and runs at atleast 20% faster than Redhat. Not saying that all users of "User Friendly" distros are arrogant, but they need to read, stop asking questions, and also need to stop thinking that Redhat is l33t. I know a lot of people that only know of Redhat, they think it's l33t, and theyalso think its the most current and most stable. Time and time again, I have proved them wrong. Gentoo statistically showed a better use of resources on older technology, as well as looking more l33t than any other distro. Gentoo is custom, and to most Gentoo users, it is the best of them all so far.

If you think that Redhat is current because its packages, you are wrong because: Gentoo establishes dependibility of applications used in other distros by taking chances on them, fixing them, making them better, faster, and work on the majority of systems. Gentoo also works on older systems in which Redhat doesn't support anymore, or ever did. In the long run with all the time required for compiling, Gentoo rules over any other so called "dependible" distro.

In light of big enterprise databases, suchas Oracle, I think that they would have no problem, although Gentoo is cutting edge. I think that there are less bugs in most newer releases. The only reason Samba and a lot of applications have bugs it because they add feautures periodically. You can't blame them for making it support more and run on more systems without a problem. I bet that Redhat has problems too.

I know that most of you would rather run Windows than Redhat. This is my opinion again, but personally Redhat runs like crap even on newer systems. Stock package management and static binaries may save time, but in the long run they lower your peak perormance and also make the system unstable, and as useless as a used condom. Even recompiling the kernel on Redhat causes problmes. Their modern init scripts interfere with some newer kernel operations. It takes as much time to get Redhat working right as Gentoo. It is time to take out the trash, and we need to stop supporting pay basis distros such as communist Redhat. They are charging us for the stuff thats spose to be free. Don't be confused by "support" based payment. Their support is as useless as Microsofts, or your broadbad ISP's. Support is a concealed way of taking your hard earned money for simple problems in which most of us could fix.

Back to the "are we losing users" topic. I think that if we are losing users, it does not matter. If they want to switch, it's their choice. I also think that eventually they'll try Gentoo once again, and finally stick with it.

I do not mean to start a flame, so don't n00b and try to win. I am simply posting this to explain my sucess with Gentoo over any other distro that I have used. If you want to start a flame, please make a flame topic. Thanks

_________________
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AMD Athlon XP 2000+ (1.67GHz)
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James Cornell
penguin@unixdevil.org
http://www.unixdevil.org

cbreaker · Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:00 am Post subject:

linuxknight · Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:06 am Post subject: I Agree.

Thanks for the quick post cbreaker. I do not mean to flame, but most of it is true. Redhat just doesnt float most of our boats. I have the proof, and if its a flame, so be it. I just want the Redhat users to think about what their distro really is.
_________________
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Shuttle AN35[N]-Ultra/AN35[N]-400
AMD Athlon XP 2000+ (1.67GHz)
256MB Infineon PC2700 DDR
40GB Seagate 7200RPM IDE Hard Drive

James Cornell
penguin@unixdevil.org
http://www.unixdevil.org

cbreaker · Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:35 am Post subject:

I think that a true RedHat "ace" will be able to run their machines with very little trouble. I've met some guys that are frigging RedHat experts. They know every inch of the distribution. They have spent years working with RedHat distributions. For the rest of us, it's a pain in the ass to do anything except what you get from the CD.

Same goes with the Debian distribution. You have these guys that will say "ohh, just add xyz to apt configuration files and then type this and then type that and then go here and run this and that. Easy" - but it's not easy and it's not intuitive.

I love how Gentoo is so easy to maintain. It's easy to install software that's not in the portage system too, because the gentoo guys pretty much let software install into where the developers meant it to be installed by default. If something better (for me) comes along, I might move to that. For now it's Gentoo. This is the beauty of Linux. We can run whatever system we want, whatever system best suits our needs and likes, and still run the same software.

In the end, it doesn't matter what distribution you run, as long as you're happy with it.

linuxknight · Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:34 pm Post subject: Thats IT!!

Thats what I was trying to say. I don't care what they use, as long as it makes them happy. I like Gentoo, it makes me happy, and is the best to me. If someone else hates it though, they're dead!! lol :twisted:

_________________
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Shuttle AN35[N]-Ultra/AN35[N]-400
AMD Athlon XP 2000+ (1.67GHz)
256MB Infineon PC2700 DDR
40GB Seagate 7200RPM IDE Hard Drive

James Cornell
penguin@unixdevil.org
http://www.unixdevil.org

kevinv · n00b Joined: 24 Aug 2002 Posts: 34

welshofdave · n00b Joined: 02 Sep 2003 Posts: 17 Location: London

asph · Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:56 pm Post subject:

lol @ henke !

kick their asses

_________________
gentoo sex is updatedb; locate; talk; date; cd; strip; look; touch; finger; unzip; uptime; gawk; head; emerge --oneshot condom; mount; fsck; gasp; more; yes; yes; yes; more; umount; emerge -C condom; make clean; sleep

RAPUL · Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:57 pm Post subject: My story

I ran SuSE in the past because one of my friends was one the spanish translater of that distribution so i had very near support.

But, one day other friend said me to try another distribution and i checked the fastest were MDK 9 and Gentoo. MDK seemed easy so i moved to the harder one.

Now i feel very happy of trying Gentoo because i have fallen in love of this distro.

Forum people is very nice.

Gentoo optimizations, customizations, init system, cvs packages, ... and the many other features all of you have talked about are wonderful.

First i installed gentoo in my 1.3Ghz tbird amd athlon at home but nowday
i have installed in:
- 1GHz AMD tbird, university server for a student group.
- Athlon 2000XP, university server for another student group.
- Dual Pentium Xeon 2.4Ghz, university server for security testings.
- 750Mhz Athlon tbid, for a biomedical student server.

These serves run in a awesome way.

So i will maybe soon turn my other servers to gentoo:
133 Mhz pentium debian of a security group server.
166 Mhz pentium mmx suse, magazine server.

Well they are not enterprise servers but gentoo works well for em, why not try with big servers?
_________________
Entropy rulz world.
Redundancy sux.
World is full of redundancy.
World sux.

dmoulton · Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:15 pm Post subject: Yep