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frilled
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Joined: 15 Mar 2004
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 Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:19 am Post subject: |
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I guess the best way would be to to an lsmod BEFORE and AFTER booting with the new hotplug, note the differences and put them into autoload. Unfortunately most people will realize it too late. The best fix in this situation would be to emerge coldplug, but then again who would want to use "manual autoloading" once they got coldplug? And non-geeks may have trouble getting the package once their network is down 
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altstadt
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Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| GenKreton wrote: | | All the modules in that list that are specifically for a hardware device on your computer and their dependencies. For example the crypt modules would not have been loaded unless some piece of hardware needed it, like a wifi driver needing one for wpa. |
Incorrect. All the modules in that list are modules that were compiled at the time the kernel was compiled. They have no relationship with the hardware installed in the system. For example, the drivers/net directory contains 94 *.o files. I am pretty certain that I don't have 94 different ethernet cards plugged into the box. |
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Cintra
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Joined: 03 Apr 2004
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:35 am Post subject: |
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Hei
Shouldn't coldplug be made a requirement for running the hotplug upgrade, so that at least one would have it in portage..?
I was fortunate in having a 2nd copy of Gentoo sharing a portage partition with the screwed-up copy, so could dl coldplug, and get copy 1 back on line..
mvh
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GenKreton
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Joined: 20 Sep 2003
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Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| altstadt wrote: | | GenKreton wrote: | | All the modules in that list that are specifically for a hardware device on your computer and their dependencies. For example the crypt modules would not have been loaded unless some piece of hardware needed it, like a wifi driver needing one for wpa. |
Incorrect. All the modules in that list are modules that were compiled at the time the kernel was compiled. They have no relationship with the hardware installed in the system. For example, the drivers/net directory contains 94 *.o files. I am pretty certain that I don't have 94 different ethernet cards plugged into the box. |
When booting it figures out what devices you have plugged in...That's why you can do dmesg and use your kernel logs to see things like usb drives without have the modules loaded. Hence the "specifically for a hardware device" on your computer statement.
If it has anything to do with the modules compiled at kernel time why was I able to compile ipw2200 when the ebuild came and hotplug knew to load it?
So where is this list on my machine? |
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GenKreton
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Joined: 20 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| Cintra wrote: | Hei
Shouldn't coldplug be made a requirement for running the hotplug upgrade, so that at least one would have it in portage..?
I was fortunate in having a 2nd copy of Gentoo sharing a portage partition with the screwed-up copy, so could dl coldplug, and get copy 1 back on line..
mvh |
Why should we be forced to use coldplug? If something doesn't work it isn't hard to modprobe it. And if people read the warnings and the information in the new config file when they ran etc-update or dispatch-conf then there wouldn't be any confusion either.
I dread to think of what other problems people run into who don't pay some semblance of attention to their config file changes. |
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Cintra
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Joined: 03 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:55 am Post subject: |
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I am thinking only of avoiding the situation where one cannot even download it...
mvh
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anz
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Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 279
Location: Vienna
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:09 am Post subject: |
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Hello Cintra,
| Cintra wrote: |
Sorry if its a dumb question, but I am extremely confused by this..
what modules did you put in /etc/modules.autoload.d/kernel-2.x ?
Luckily I have a reserve copy of Gentoo on another disk or I would be totally up shit creek now..
regards |
Cause I am a really stupid anf lazy guy, I put only the network card module (3c59x) into the /etc/modules.autoload.d/kernel-2.x.
After an /etc/init.d/net.eth0 start network was reachable.
Then I emerged coldplug,
deleted hotplug from the rc-update (rc-update del hotplug default)
and added coldplug to the rc-update (rc-update add coldplug default).
Now the lsmod-list shows the same modules before emerging the new hotplug-version.
.... yes, yes, I know, this is a clumsy way - but it's working (without knowing which modules I need before plugging something onto my compi).
Greetings - anz
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Cintra
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Thanks anz
I just did 'rc-update add coldplug default' and left
'rc-update del hotplug boot' where it was for now.
Need to spend more time finding out what hotplug does in my situation before removing it 
Happy to say 'emerge auDtv world' is again up-to-date
regards
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groovec
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Joined: 29 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| dsd wrote: | as to some way of getting this message over better, well, does anyone have any suggestions?
we describe the new behaviour in the ebuild, in the changelog, in the hotplug init script (which you must have seen with etc-update) and by spamming messages at the end of the emerge. i'm going to submit an article for the GWN but thats not going to get out to everybody.
yes, a good portage message log enabled by default would be perfect, but we dont have that just yet  |
the problem is (at last for me) that when doing a big emerge (emerge -uD world) mostly there are beeing a bunch of packages emerging and the important messages, like hotplug has changed, appear somewhere in the middle of everything.
as i think that i am not the only one that dont look through the hole portage logs after the emerge, i would suggest to display important messages at the end of the hole emerge process, so that you would see them directly. |
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kevmille
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Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 311
Location: Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon), Vietnam
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| anz wrote: | Hello Cintra,
Cause I am a really stupid anf lazy guy, I put only the network card module (3c59x) into the /etc/modules.autoload.d/kernel-2.x.
After an /etc/init.d/net.eth0 start network was reachable.
Then I emerged coldplug,
deleted hotplug from the rc-update (rc-update del hotplug default)
and added coldplug to the rc-update (rc-update add coldplug default).
Now the lsmod-list shows the same modules before emerging the new hotplug-version.
.... yes, yes, I know, this is a clumsy way - but it's working (without knowing which modules I need before plugging something onto my compi).
Greetings - anz |
I had commented out 3c59x in /etc/modules.autoload.d/kernel-2.6 so I had to /etc/init.d/pcmcia start to get my notebook to detect my nic.
emerge coldplay and rc-update add coldplay boot got my system working again.
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sl70
Guru
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 455
Location: Saitama, JP
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know if this is relevant to this thread or not, but upgrading to hotplug 20040923 completely borked the usb on my computer. All the usb modules (usbcore, usbserial, usb-storage, usbhid, visor) load without errors from /etc/modules.autoload.d/kernel-2.6, but there is NOTHING in /proc/bus/usb. It was very disoncerting. emerging 20040401 brought everything back to normal.
(I have an EPoX KHA+ motherboard with the VIA KT266A chipset, and an Athlon XP 2100+) |
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GenKreton
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Joined: 20 Sep 2003
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Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| groovec wrote: | | dsd wrote: | as to some way of getting this message over better, well, does anyone have any suggestions?
we describe the new behaviour in the ebuild, in the changelog, in the hotplug init script (which you must have seen with etc-update) and by spamming messages at the end of the emerge. i'm going to submit an article for the GWN but thats not going to get out to everybody.
yes, a good portage message log enabled by default would be perfect, but we dont have that just yet |
the problem is (at last for me) that when doing a big emerge (emerge -uD world) mostly there are beeing a bunch of packages emerging and the important messages, like hotplug has changed, appear somewhere in the middle of everything.
as i think that i am not the only one that dont look through the hole portage logs after the emerge, i would suggest to display important messages at the end of the hole emerge process, so that you would see them directly. |
Regardless, if you could not see that you should have been paying attention during etc-update or dispatch-conf. They changed the /etc/init.d/hotplug file so it was more than clear of the changes.
Moving ewarns to the end of the whole emerge process wouldn't be a negative thing on the other hand. |
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Dana Merrick
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 84
Location: Trinity College
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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I want to emerge coldplug, but I don't have any network connection...
How do I know what drivers I need to activate?
...When I boot with Knoppix, I don't get internet either. That's bad.
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frilled
Retired Dev
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
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Location: Atlantis, inner city ring
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| GenKreton wrote: | | Regardless, if you could not see that you should have been paying attention during etc-update or dispatch-conf. They changed the /etc/init.d/hotplug file so it was more than clear of the changes. |
Well, you underestimate the pain of etc-updating with a lot of packages. You can easily have changes in 25+ files. Since this is very tedious I ususally pick out the files I *know* I changed, patch them interactively, and leave the rest I know I did *not* touch to "-5". That usually works nice and gives me good results fast. Unless something like this happens.
BTW: The coldplug script is very funny, because it just calls the 'hotplug' scripts. Ho, ho, ho - now I have a machinegun 
| Quote: | | Moving ewarns to the end of the whole emerge process wouldn't be a negative thing on the other hand. |
YES, YES, YES!
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frilled
Retired Dev
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
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Location: Atlantis, inner city ring
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| aragostaragazzo wrote: | I want to emerge coldplug, but I don't have any network connection...
How do I know what drivers I need to activate? |
Start with "lspci" which should tell you what network card you have.
Then have a look under /lib/modules/<kernelversion> to see what modules you built when everything was still working <g> and 'modprobe <modulename without file extension' it. Then try to get /etc/init.d/net.ethX start to work.
| Quote: | | ...When I boot with Knoppix, I don't get internet either. That's bad. |
Did you have it working before?
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andr0z
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Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 20
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: READ THIS FOR CLARIFICATION! |
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| dsd wrote: |
| Code: | emerge coldplug
rc-update add coldplug boot |
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That worked fine 4 me! THX DSD!
Now I've a much clear idea of modules hotplugging |
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DLF
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Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| dsd wrote: | as to some way of getting this message over better, well, does anyone have any suggestions?
we describe the new behaviour in the ebuild, in the changelog, in the hotplug init script (which you must have seen with etc-update) and by spamming messages at the end of the emerge. i'm going to submit an article for the GWN but thats not going to get out to everybody.
yes, a good portage message log enabled by default would be perfect, but we dont have that just yet |
I suppose the problem is for most people they only have hotplug because the udev guide told them to install it. I missed the warnings because of the nature of emerge -uDpv world (left to run overnight). I missed the warning in the init script because I only worry about scripts I have changed myself. I didn't check the emerge log because I didn't know there was one. I may even have missed the significance of the warning because I associate hotplugging with my printer and USB stick and forgot about udev. I was also lulled into a false sense of security because x86 is supposed to be stable. Maybe the answer would be for udev to have a dependency on coldplug because when I first set up udev, auto-detecting modules at startup is precisely what it was advertised to do!
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GenKreton
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Joined: 20 Sep 2003
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Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| DLF wrote: |
I suppose the problem is for most people they only have hotplug because the udev guide told them to install it. I missed the warnings because of the nature of emerge -uDpv world (left to run overnight). I missed the warning in the init script because I only worry about scripts I have changed myself. I didn't check the emerge log because I didn't know there was one. I may even have missed the significance of the warning because I associate hotplugging with my printer and USB stick and forgot about udev. I was also lulled into a false sense of security because x86 is supposed to be stable. Maybe the answer would be for udev to have a dependency on coldplug because when I first set up udev, auto-detecting modules at startup is precisely what it was advertised to do! |
I see no reason for udev to require cold plug when the file to autoload modules is there, we don't need the bloat!
And no hot plug is not supposed to load modules at boot, look at their main page
| Quote: | | Hotplug lets you plug in new devices and use them immediately. |
Those little cards in your boxes weren't just plugged in while the system was running so hotplug was never meant to deal with it. |
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dsd
Developer
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
Posts: 2162
Location: nr London
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| DLF wrote: | | Maybe the answer would be for udev to have a dependency on coldplug because when I first set up udev, auto-detecting modules at startup is precisely what it was advertised to do! |
i really dont know where you read this. udev is advertised _not_ to support loading kernel drivers. (taking the typical unix philosophy style approach, udev is designed to manage device nodes and nothing else..)
also, adding a dependancy on coldplug won't help the situation. coldplug is pretty useless unless the user adds it into a runlevel. we cant modify runlevels from inside ebuilds.
also, i'll be getting an announcement about this on the front page pretty soon. we also have some kernel changes to announce and i'll slip in a note about hotplug too.
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DLF
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| dsd wrote: | | DLF wrote: | | Maybe the answer would be for udev to have a dependency on coldplug because when I first set up udev, auto-detecting modules at startup is precisely what it was advertised to do! |
i really dont know where you read this. udev is advertised _not_ to support loading kernel drivers. (taking the typical unix philosophy style approach, udev is designed to manage device nodes and nothing else..)
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I have no idea where I got this idea from either. I am sure I read something about no longer needing initrd once udev was enabled. Some bl**dy forum no doubt . Anyway hotplug did it and it shouldn't have is what you are saying.
| Quote: |
also, adding a dependancy on coldplug won't help the situation. coldplug is pretty useless unless the user adds it into a runlevel. we cant modify runlevels from inside ebuilds.
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No but they would have been able to do that, they can't emerge coldplug because they can't download it! As you point out though it isn't what udev is for.
| Quote: |
also, i'll be getting an announcement about this on the front page pretty soon. we also have some kernel changes to announce and i'll slip in a note about hotplug too. |
I am sure those people busy re-installing Gentoo will be delighted to read it once they have finished . Seriously though, I hope you get my point that it is quite easy to miss the warning if you use emerge -uDv world. Perhaps the emerge should pause with the warning message and only continue if prompted by the user *1. Alternatively how about a line at the end of the emerge process "check file `emergemessages`, important info..." *2.
*1 - ISTR an upgrade to portage aborts the emerge world and prompts you to emerge portage first before proceeding.
*2 - Similar to the prompt you get when you need to use etc-update.
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DLF
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Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| GenKreton wrote: |
I see no reason for udev to require cold plug when the file to autoload modules is there, we don't need the bloat!
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Quite right, my mis-recollection of what udev is for. Time and beer does that to a man.
| GenKreton wrote: |
And no hot plug is not supposed to load modules at boot, look at their main page
| Quote: | | Hotplug lets you plug in new devices and use them immediately. |
Those little cards in your boxes weren't just plugged in while the system was running so hotplug was never meant to deal with it. |
Sorry mister user, I know your printer was working earlier but you have just rebooted and it is more than my jobsworth to acknowledge its existence. You could try unplugging then plugging it in again .
Perhaps you can help me. I have a solitary module in my autoload file (nvidia) yet straight after booting lsmod tells me I have dozens of modules loaded. This is with the 'new' hotplug and no coldplug BTW. What else causes modules to be loaded at startup?
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dsd
Developer
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| DLF wrote: | | Seriously though, I hope you get my point that it is quite easy to miss the warning if you use emerge -uDv world. Perhaps the emerge should pause with the warning message and only continue if prompted by the user *1. Alternatively how about a line at the end of the emerge process "check file `emergemessages`, important info..." *2. |
yes..thats mostly what this thread is about. hopefully you can see that we are doing our best to get this message out with the resources we have available, without doing anything that is just wrong.
pausing the ebuild is not an option - its against our policy and would have probably caused more havoc from people who start a big update and leave it..plus the portage functionality you are referring to is built into portage, only applies to portage upgrades, and can't be accessed by other ebuilds.
spewing out a message at the end of the emerge is again not an option, there is no functionality in ebuilds that allows us to do this. the message you are referring to about etc-update is again a portage internal and not controlled by any ebuilds.
yes, portage should allow us report these messages better. i believe its being worked on. i'm not a portage developer and the work i do is totally separate from portage internals most of the time.
still, thanks for the suggestions.
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altstadt
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Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| dsd wrote: | | pausing the ebuild is not an option - its against our policy and would have probably caused more havoc from people who start a big update and leave it..plus the portage functionality you are referring to is built into portage, only applies to portage upgrades, and can't be accessed by other ebuilds. |
You should try setting FEATURES=maketest and then emerge cups.
The Makefile does exactly that, pause the ebuild. Unfortunately the Makefile does not also flush stdin before portage starts the test phase, but that is another matter. No more running ebuilds from cron if you want to use maketest. |
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GenKreton
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Joined: 20 Sep 2003
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Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| DLF wrote: |
Perhaps you can help me. I have a solitary module in my autoload file (nvidia) yet straight after booting lsmod tells me I have dozens of modules loaded. This is with the 'new' hotplug and no coldplug BTW. What else causes modules to be loaded at startup? |
When running the autoload files it's supposed to calculate dependencies and load them in the necessary order. I am assuming that your nvidia module requires other things like agp modules and such. |
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veezi
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Got to this point reading the whole thread, and still have one *silly* question:
Do I still need hotplug in boot or default runlevel?
is 'rc-update del hotplug boot' the correct thing to do after this split of functionality?
Thanks, |
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