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diskreet
n00b
Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 62
Location: Nashua, NH
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 Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| feld wrote: | if Linux isnt a gaming platform, then who wrote the guidlines on what a gaming platform IS?
Linux:
1. Speed
2. Stability
3. Great resource handling
4. Bleeding Edge as far as power over hardware
5. Suitable for both server and client!
Windows:
1. Slow
2. Instable alone, worse thanks to crappy security that allows viruses and spyware to run free.
3. Handles resouces about as well as ... well... does Windows even handle resources? 
4. Could this OS make it any harder to get power out of your PC?
5. Not really suitable for both. Only reason client is there is because the OS is a monopoly. With the influence and amount of computer gamers, if all makers went OpenGL and Linux / Mac only, Windows would be done for outside of business in 6 months of great releases.
What more do videogame makers want?
-Feld |
Gamers by majority arnt nerds, arnt computer geeks and dont want to spend days installing an operating system. Gamers want to put the shiny circle in the cup holder and press "install"
Also, windows nt/2k/xp is very stable by itself, and unstable use to viruses and spyware. If Linux had the marketshare windows does, then hackers/marketing morons would focus on it and there would be just as much crap for this OS.
Again, xp/2k handle resources very well.
I will agree with point number 4, but it's designed for ease of use, which for most people, including myself, is important (Tahts why I run KDE..)
My 2 cents,
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vonhelmet
l33t
Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 770
Location: Somewhere in a school
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ShadowMetis
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 181
Location: Newburgh, NY
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| I have to agree with feld on this one. Also, though gamers by nature aren't geeks, hardcore gamers are. You have to be a geek to build a strong gaming system. And as long as you know your hardware, you can pretty much configure a kernel. If you're good enough to configure a kernel you can probably read. Reading is really the only skill that you need for installing linux other than knowing your system. I was able to get gentoo up by the install guide and a few extra pieces of info. Anyway, even if linux does get people trying to make viruses they'll have their work cut out for them. Linux has high security on its own, and people still beef it up. Viruses will probably just make linux stronger. |
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stobbsm
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Joined: 23 May 2004
Posts: 452
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Linux is a viable option
it is easy enough to use, if you use something like Redhat or Mandrake, which is still Linux.
Gentoo is the "Shizzat", where Mandrake/Redhat(Fedora) are more of the WinXP style. Less to think about, and no need to change anything if you don't want to.
It can be made easy to use. It can be made to be "put in the disc, click install", it just hasn't been yet
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deadstar
Guru
Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 319
Location: England
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| stobbsm wrote: |
It can be made easy to use. It can be made to be "put in the disc, click install", it just hasn't been yet |
Where's the fun in that?
I've learnt so much from screwing up installations!
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stobbsm
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Joined: 23 May 2004
Posts: 452
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:52 am Post subject: |
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lol, that's true, but if a company made it put in disc, click install, more people would not be so afraid to use linux.
I know that Blizzard games are all supported in one way or another, but still, there's more then blizzard. ID is really good with it, and bioware trys. Unfortunatly, that's not enough high profile companies.
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Prisoner62113
n00b
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 8
Location: Bristol
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Surley if transgaming released their directx layer as proper development libraries there would be no reason for companies NOT to develop for linux. Or am i being overly simplistic? |
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ShadowMetis
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 181
Location: Newburgh, NY
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| It's not that you're being overly simplistic as much as that's easier said than done. If it were to be done, I definately think transgaming wouldn't be the ones to do it. |
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irondog
l33t
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 715
Location: Voor mijn TV. Achter mijn pc.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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Linux
Linux? Fast? We are using rev-engineerd drivers many times and we do have a lot of software bloat in our Linux desktops using different libraries handling the same kind of things.
Want to crash your Linux? It's not that hard. Just buy new hardware and wait for the vendors to provide suitable workarounds for their hardware bugs. Want to break your system? 6 million ways to make the fatal mistake!
| Quote: | | 3. Great resource handling |
Five different scedulers forking Linux don't give me the feeling, that things are always optimal.
| Quote: | | 4. Bleeding Edge as far as power over hardware |
Yeah, we can edit our device-drivers knowing only parts of what our hardware is capable of. Wow! That will make my computer faster.
| Quote: | | 5. Suitable for both server and client! |
Comment-out some useless shit in your kernel while rebuilding it for a smarter game sceduler. It will save you another 0.00001% after you wasted 15 minutes building it.
Don't be so confident so fast. We are still far away from a good gaming platform.
Windows
After installing 100 programs each preloading an instance of itself in the systray, Windows tends to become slow. Learn to manage it.
| Quote: | | 2. Instable alone, worse thanks to crappy security that allows viruses and spyware to run free. |
Don't use The internet explorer, Kazaa and other crap. Use a dedicated firewall (router) and you will never have to use virusscanners.
| Quote: | | 3. Handles resouces about as well as ... well... does Windows even handle resources? |
Out of imagination?
| Quote: | | 4. Could this OS make it any harder to get power out of your PC? |
Optimized software runs more efficiëtly than bloated software built with -fomit-everything
| Quote: | | 5. Not really suitable for both. Only reason client is there is because the OS is a monopoly. With the influence and amount of computer gamers, if all makers went OpenGL and Linux / Mac only, Windows would be done for outside of business in 6 months of great releases. |
It's not Windows that sucks. It's the policy of those who made it, sell it and protect it.
| Quote: | | What more do videogame makers want? |
Costomers, money.
There is little money to be made on a platform that lacks to support binary (closed-source) software and only specific hardware. Partly it's Linux' own fault: No binary support, no good allround harware support => No bleading edge games.
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ShadowMetis
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 181
Location: Newburgh, NY
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| irondog wrote: | Linux
Linux? Fast? We are using rev-engineerd drivers many times and we do have a lot of software bloat in our Linux desktops using different libraries handling the same kind of things.
Want to crash your Linux? It's not that hard. Just buy new hardware and wait for the vendors to provide suitable workarounds for their hardware bugs. Want to break your system? 6 million ways to make the fatal mistake!
| Quote: | | 3. Great resource handling |
Five different scedulers forking Linux don't give me the feeling, that things are always optimal.
| Quote: | | 4. Bleeding Edge as far as power over hardware |
Yeah, we can edit our device-drivers knowing only parts of what our hardware is capable of. Wow! That will make my computer faster.
| Quote: | | 5. Suitable for both server and client! |
Comment-out some useless shit in your kernel while rebuilding it for a smarter game sceduler. It will save you another 0.00001% after you wasted 15 minutes building it.
Don't be so confident so fast. We are still far away from a good gaming platform.
Windows
After installing 100 programs each preloading an instance of itself in the systray, Windows tends to become slow. Learn to manage it.
| Quote: | | 2. Instable alone, worse thanks to crappy security that allows viruses and spyware to run free. |
Don't use The internet explorer, Kazaa and other crap. Use a dedicated firewall (router) and you will never have to use virusscanners.
| Quote: | | 3. Handles resouces about as well as ... well... does Windows even handle resources? |
Out of imagination?
| Quote: | | 4. Could this OS make it any harder to get power out of your PC? |
Optimized software runs more efficiëtly than bloated software built with -fomit-everything
| Quote: | | 5. Not really suitable for both. Only reason client is there is because the OS is a monopoly. With the influence and amount of computer gamers, if all makers went OpenGL and Linux / Mac only, Windows would be done for outside of business in 6 months of great releases. |
It's not Windows that sucks. It's the policy of those who made it, sell it and protect it.
| Quote: | | What more do videogame makers want? |
Costomers, money.
There is little money to be made on a platform that lacks to support binary (closed-source) software and only specific hardware. Partly it's Linux' own fault: No binary support, no good allround harware support => No bleading edge games. |
You sir, disgust me. Your arguments are made on the basis that every Linux user is a fool, and every Windows users is a genius. As we all know, it is quite the contrary. Of course Linux has many flaws. That is due to its capabilities when built properly for a specific purpose. If you optimize your Linux system as a server, of course it will be shitty for gaming. There are a million ways to break a Linux system, and I haven't done a single one of them. Of course, I haven't used Linux all that long, but there are many that have used it much longer than either myself and probably you also, yet have never broken their system. If they put everything in front of us to do with as we please, it is our responsibility to hold back in the areas that we are not capable of handling. As for windows, they try to build it so that you can't possibly break it, yet it still breaks, and randomly at that. And of course when a Windows system does break, sometimes you can't even fix it with a reinstall. If you'd look at discussion this from a fair perspective instead of being biased in order to sir up argument, you'd see these points much better. |
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irondog
l33t
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 715
Location: Voor mijn TV. Achter mijn pc.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You sir, disgust me. |
People complaining about Windows without giving good arguments disgust me.
| Quote: | | Your arguments are made on the basis that every Linux user is a fool, and every Windows users is a genius. As we all know, it is quite the contrary. Of course Linux has many flaws. That is due to its capabilities when built properly for a specific purpose. If you optimize your Linux system as a server, of course it will be shitty for gaming. |
No difference with Windows at this point. But when buying ramdom (gaming-) hardware from random vendors you will very likely be having a broken gaming PC after installing Linux. I'm talking about soundcards, NIC's, Video cards, Joysticks, Mice, steering Wheels and webcams. If it's only months old, it won't work. Ever seen an open-source driver on Windows? Vendors might like it, but don't seem to be able to release their source. When they release binary, it only works on Suse x.00001-build-1a-2004-gaming-kernel-2.6.x. Ever seen this problem in Windows? Ever needed a compiler in Windows? There is just too less hardware abstraction in the kernel making Linux support too complicated for hardware producers. No hardware, no games.
And besides that. Nvidia isn't a good example of binary support for Linux. It's a big fat workaround for them not to release their wisdom in source code.
| Quote: | | There are a million ways to break a Linux system, and I haven't done a single one of them. Of course, I haven't used Linux all that long, but there are many that have used it much longer than either myself and probably you also, yet have never broken their system. |
For me an OS should never be idiot-proof. I've never broken my system unless doing it on purpose to watch the interesting results  Beatiful things can be learnt that way. I love Linux about this.
| Quote: | | If they put everything in front of us to do with as we please, it is our responsibility to hold back in the areas that we are not capable of handling. |
Please don't say I blame Linux to provide the danger of power to controll my computer. I just hate Linux newbe's complainig about Windows. They don't deserve to use Linux. Things aren't optimal, complain like I do! We deserve more than unpacking newly bought hardware and throwing away driver software with the packing material because it's Windows/MAC OS only. Something must happen so drivers won't become outdated and useless every kernel update.
| Quote: | | As for windows, they try to build it so that you can't possibly break it, yet it still breaks, and randomly at that. And of course when a Windows system does break, sometimes you can't even fix it with a reinstall. |
Flashing the BIOS can't be undone by reinstalling Windows.
| Quote: | | If you'd look at discussion this from a fair perspective instead of being biased in order to sir up argument, you'd see these points much better. |
Discussing means: people want to make their point clear. If I would summorize all positive things about GNU/Linux my point wouldn't become very clear. Everyone (using old and very well supported hardware) reading this topic would believe the only problem is, that games have to be emulated in GNU/Linux. Wrong: playing many different games on very many kinds of hardware setups is possible in Microsoft Windows, in Linux it unfortunately isn't yet.
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ShadowMetis
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 181
Location: Newburgh, NY
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:48 am Post subject: |
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You're making your statements entirely too strict. You state everything as if there are impossible walls in front of Linux in every direction. The things you say are half truths. Yes, there are many things to hold back Linux, but they're not unscalable walls. They are merely hurdles. This has been proved many times on many issues. If Linux wasn't able to overcome the problems thrown at it, how could it be considered such a powerful OS.
Also, no one is "complaining" about Windows. How could we? We don't use it. It's not our problem. We simply state facts about what a horrible OS it is. It's trash talking. That may not be a good thing, but we're just showing pride in Linux. If you're so pro-windows, why the hell are you even here? |
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bertaboy
l33t
Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 604
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Dais wrote: | You can have an advantage in playing linux games: you can play them without having a desktop shell launched in background  more ressources for your game 
But yeah, most of the time, games run better in the platform they were created for. |
I dunno, I read instructions to hack WindowsXP so that your interface is a gui. He had his system pretty slimmed down, only having XP up for games, everything else he had running under Linux. From what I read, the footprint he had for all of his XP services was pretty small, too.... |
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yeboy
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Wow.. such long posts. I have to agree at least partialy with irondog. At some point, the success of linux is going to depend on it becoming final, or at least having some base that can maintain stable transition between kernel updates. Producing cutting edge software for a development OS is a programer's nightmare.
I disagree with windows view, however. While the argument stands that it runs all hardware, to say it is optomized is a streach. The fact is, Linux is faster in many cases even with the downfalls of it's continuing and relitively unorganized development. Windows does not handle it's resources well, and it has more security andinstability issues than just viruses and spyware. |
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stobbsm
Guru
Joined: 23 May 2004
Posts: 452
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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I've heard alot of people say how Linux has just as many security holes as Windows does.
I think this may be true, sometimes. The reason it is so secure is because it's open source, but that is also the reason it has some holes.
The solution, many people notice it at the same time, and fix it themselves, then submit a patch.
Try that with Windows, and Microsoft will laugh in your face, then sue you for messing with there "Intelcutal (sp?) Property"
Linux may have security holes and bugs, but they are never around long enough to worry about them. Unlike in Windows, where most of the holes get fixed in Service Packs, but the fixes open up new ones.
just my 2 cents
I'm a proud Linux Gamer, then again, that's how I built my system.
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Sysadmin of Ubuntu systems and servers....
Although my own server is gentoo.... |
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ShadowMetis
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 181
Location: Newburgh, NY
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| bertaboy wrote: | | Dais wrote: | You can have an advantage in playing linux games: you can play them without having a desktop shell launched in background more ressources for your game
But yeah, most of the time, games run better in the platform they were created for. |
I dunno, I read instructions to hack WindowsXP so that your interface is a gui. He had his system pretty slimmed down, only having XP up for games, everything else he had running under Linux. From what I read, the footprint he had for all of his XP services was pretty small, too.... |
Yeah... you have to hack Windows to break it down to bare minimum in order to make it as powerful as Linux, yet still have the Windows gaming support. I can buy that. In fact, it even sounds like a good idea. But as you say, the guy that did this dual boots, so he is still a Linux user for his main purposes, other than gaming. This is a good way to have your system if you dual boot for gaming. But if you're just using straight windows you'd be fucking yourself to do this |
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bertaboy
l33t
Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 604
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| ShadowMetis wrote: | | bertaboy wrote: | | Dais wrote: | You can have an advantage in playing linux games: you can play them without having a desktop shell launched in background more ressources for your game
But yeah, most of the time, games run better in the platform they were created for. |
I dunno, I read instructions to hack WindowsXP so that your interface is a gui. He had his system pretty slimmed down, only having XP up for games, everything else he had running under Linux. From what I read, the footprint he had for all of his XP services was pretty small, too.... |
Yeah... you have to hack Windows to break it down to bare minimum in order to make it as powerful as Linux, yet still have the Windows gaming support. I can buy that. In fact, it even sounds like a good idea. But as you say, the guy that did this dual boots, so he is still a Linux user for his main purposes, other than gaming. This is a good way to have your system if you dual boot for gaming. But if you're just using straight windows you'd be fucking yourself to do this |
Well, it took a LONG time to find, but I found the instructions I was referring to:
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=216876 |
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ShadowMetis
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Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 181
Location: Newburgh, NY
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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I actually wasn't asking how to do it. I don't dual boot. Thanks anyway though. I can actually still use that. Now, I'm going to disable explorer on my little brother's XP box while he's asleep. Hehehe  |
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longjohn119
n00b
Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Personally I'm pretty g**damn disappointed in Linux and games ...
Specifically losing ALL my game saves WITHOUT WARNING because Gentoo upgraded my Quake 2 and trashed them ... even downgrading couldn't get them back and quite frankly that's just amatuerish and ignorant in my opinion ...
I'm not very happy about bittorrent breaking after Firefox upgraded to 1.01, after screwing around with it for 3 freaking hours I gave up , booted in XP for the 1st time in two weeks and was downloading the bittorrent I wanted in 5 minutes ...
As long as dumb things like that happen, Linux will never overtake Windopws ... like it or not ...
I'm real close to reformatting this drive back to Windows
Did I mention the really terrible Menu system in Linux that's about as broke and crude as it was 5 years ago? I shouldn't have to jack around and manually add or remove entries in the menu on 80% of the programs I install and nearly 100% of program I uninstall |
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avieth
Veteran
Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 1945
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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I'm just about to make a linux gaming system, as soon as i get a few more bucks for a new 40 gb hard drive and an nvidia 6200. I'm trashing my crapy old ATI Radeon 9600, thing didn't even work right in windows.
Anyways, I just wanted to say that Linux can do absolutely anything!! I'm planning on emulating Windows XP, and the Mac OS X on my 64-bit box, and I'm gonna try getting Half-Life 2 working, its gonna be so much fun  at least when I get it to work. |
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Jengu
Guru
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| wolf31o2 wrote: | | Linux is not a gaming platform. While it has made strides in gaming support, it is still quite lacking. Cedega doesn't help the situation, as it gives game developers and out for not porting to Linux natively. |
This is a problem with Cedega specifically. It doesn't mean that wine will never get to the point that the speed difference will be minimal. Every new version of wine works better. Not Cedega, but the wine project is not just about running windows apps on linux -- winelib is a tool to help developers port their products to linux with minimal effort, which will only ease the transition for developers.
| moomin-papa wrote: | | Not to start an ATI vs NVidia argument, but I would like to point out that the recent ATI drviers have been very good, and have worked great for me. As far as I know any recent Radeon card (9200 and up) are supported by these drivers. |
Avoid ATI like the plague. The new drivers are getting better but are still worlds behind Nvidia's. I know because I have to deal with it daily on my Radeon 9700 Pro. They're finicky to setup, don't support all the hardware they're supposed to, and to top it all off the main game I want to play with them, UT2004, has suffered from stutters for the last two "improved" driver versions.
| wolf31o2 wrote: | | After all, why spend all of the time and resources to port a game to Linux when "gamers" will be happy running the game at 75% performance with graphical glitches and artifacts using a proprietary piece of pay software that they don't have to pony up to code? |
Because there's absolutely no market right now for linux native games even without Cedega. And Cedega is a more economical buy -- it doesn't rely on developers porting their games. You get to play native games and what isn't ported. Cedega is teh win!
| feld wrote: | | if Linux isnt a gaming platform, then who wrote the guidlines on what a gaming platform IS? |
1. A consistent platform has to actually exist. This is definitely not linux. Game makers have a hard enough time getting their games to run across the wide variety of hardware available, let alone across different distrobutions that differ from each other in the most inane ways possible (/usr/fonts vs. /usr/share/fonts).
| Watchoo wrote: |
 Are you sure about that ???
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It's possible given that he has enough RAM. The biggest difference between the detail settings in Doom3 is texture quality, and if you have enough RAM your computer will start to use that once it runs out of memory on your video card. This is why people with 1GB can play Ultra Quality smoothly despite not having a 512MB-1GB vid card. |
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opentaka
l33t
Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Posts: 840
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:39 am Post subject: |
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for me i can say linux is the gaming OS,
because there is not much 3d action games created for linux, we need to use cedega to run them, and it makes game work bit slow.
but if u run a game that is made for linux, or have linux version it works damn damn good then windows.
actually i tested AA on windows XP and gentoo, and in gentoo, i have no problem with 1280X1024 , Very High.
in windows, a lagg happen everytime i move. yes this tested in single and multiplayer.
and i can say linux is gaming os for me. |
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avieth
Veteran
Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 1945
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| antiwmac wrote: |
actually i tested AA on windows XP and gentoo, and in gentoo, i have no problem with 1280X1024 , Very High.
in windows, a lagg happen everytime i move. yes this tested in single and multiplayer.
and i can say linux is gaming os for me. |
Single player in AA? You mean training?
Ive heard great and horrible things about linux gaming, I think the clear solution is to be patient, dual boot with windows XP so you can play direct3d only games, but when it comes to openGL, linux is the way to go. The day will come when linux dominates windows, the un-computerly-adpet society needs to learn how to use linux, and know the advantages it has (especially being free  ) then they will stop buying microsoft products and just use linux, then the game programmers will realize that they need to program for linux. I dream of that day  .
I get entertained in linux without even playing games. |
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rkv
n00b
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| well its the developers that contol gaming and right now thier choosin windows over linux. atleast big games like doom3 ,UT2004 ,and HL2(ya soon) are there in linux. i guess for highly experienced windows developer to switch to linux is hard. and the biggest problem drivers how much ever nvidia and ati spend on linux drivers its not enough we need better drivers!! |
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avieth
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Posts: 1945
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Someday |
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