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Lokheed
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 Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:39 am Post subject: KDE 4.3 Beta 2 |
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| I dont see a kdebase in portage. I am almost afraid to ask, but is there not going to be a kdebase anynmore? |
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moocha
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Joined: 21 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:49 am Post subject: |
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I assume you mean 3.4.
The 3.4_beta ebuilds are (finally) broken into individual packages. Look in /usr/portage/profiles/package.mask.
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Lokheed
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| moocha wrote: | I assume you mean 3.4.
The 3.4_beta ebuilds are (finally) broken into individual packages. Look in /usr/portage/profiles/package.mask. |
Yes sorry, 3.4 is what I meant. So there wont be a full kdebase? I know the packages arent official, thats a Gentoo thing that they broke them up.
I am completely devistated over this. There are what 40+ seperate packages that I would need to install and I have no idea what most of them would be. This would also mean I would have to sit there and unmask them all and waste hours out of my time to update it.
I use the DO_NOT_COMPILE option and it works beautifully. I dont mind if its split up, but wouldnt it be prudent to also release the package as it should be released? |
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codergeek42
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:25 am Post subject: |
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You can still the meta-ebuilds: | Code: | # emerge kdebase-meta
# emerge kdemultimedia-meta |
etc.
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Lokheed
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| codergeek42 wrote: | You can still the meta-ebuilds: | Code: | # emerge kdebase-meta
# emerge kdemultimedia-meta |
etc. |
Yeah but that completely destroys my method of using the DO_NOT_COMPILE options...
I feel like I just went back to Windows. KDE people work their asses off on their stuff. To sit idly by and on a whim rip everything apart and not even include the orignal way it should be installed is a little much.
I hope I am jumping the gun but this is really just a very poor decision. I dont care if someone wants to sit and waste their time ripping it apart, but atleast show the respect to the people that worked on it and release it as it should be.
Wouldnt have been simpler to just throw a bunch of use flags at kdebase? The people that complain about KDE and bloat only install libs to get K3b. This also wouldnt remove anything more than using the DO_NOT_COMPILE options as somethings are needed or KDE breaks or functions with errors.
Do the ebuild creators know what to rip out? I mean now there are 10 or so konqueror ebuilds alone. This makes things much more confusing and much more work...
A terribly poor decision if they wont release a real kdebase ebuild. |
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psyqil
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Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 2767
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| Lokheed wrote: | | I hope I am jumping the gun |
You are. Start reading here. |
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Q-collective
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| I for one find it a beautifull solution, because you still had to compile a lot even if you used DO_NOT_COMPILE, now everything is splitten up, I just compile what I need (that would be just konqueror) and everyone who wants a full blown kde desktop just emerges kde, I really don't see the problem |
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Lokheed
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| psyqil wrote: | | Lokheed wrote: | | I hope I am jumping the gun |
You are. Start reading here. |
Damn and its a sticky too, dont know how I missed that. As long as they keep the monolith releases, I have no problems. Thanks for the link psyqil |
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Lokheed
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Q-collective wrote: | | I for one find it a beautifull solution, because you still had to compile a lot even if you used DO_NOT_COMPILE, now everything is splitten up, I just compile what I need (that would be just konqueror) and everyone who wants a full blown kde desktop just emerges kde, I really don't see the problem |
Yeah no problems at all:
"It's been said before that split ebuilds would take much more time to emerge than the monolithic ones, due to the overhead of unpacking and running configure for every package. A complete emerge kde-meta could take 20-30% longer than a classic emerge kde, unacceptable in an already long compile.
Moreover, at present the split ebuilds always run make -f admin/Makefile.cvs (this means running autoconf, automake, etc. and several related kde-specific scripts). This adds an additional slowdown of approximately the same order as a configure run." |
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Archangel1
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:20 am Post subject: |
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I say good on them. I think you're overreacting a bit frankly Lokheed; I don't know if DO_NOT_COMPILE works or not still. If it does, fine. If not, it was a horrible dirty hack method anyway; every single other piece of software in Portage installs it's various parts via seperate packages or USE flags, not some funny variable telling it not to compile various things.
DO_NOT_COMPILE was always backwards, just about everyone wanted to install one or two packages from, say, kdenetwork (I know I certainly did). This required finding out every single other item it installed and adding them to DO_NOT_COMPILE.
The new way is slower to do emerge kde-meta vs the old emerge kde, sure. On the other hand who really wants the whole lot anyway, including edutainment and everything; this new way will be much,much faster for anyone who chooses to customise a bit.
And I saw an announcement on the kde-meta-ebuilds site a while back saying that one or two of the USE flags helped speed and could actually make it pretty competitive with the old way.
I'm not quite sure why you feel this way is wrong, and the other way is "the way it's meant to be installed". Sure, they release them as monolithic packages, but if we want to split them up more that's really up to us. I remember hearing Debian does this already, although I'm not sure of the accuracy of that.
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moocha
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| Lokheed wrote: | | Yeah no problems at all: |
Nobody's forcing you to use the split ebuilds, so you can stop being annoyed now, mmkay?
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zerojay
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Lokheed wrote: | | Q-collective wrote: | | I for one find it a beautifull solution, because you still had to compile a lot even if you used DO_NOT_COMPILE, now everything is splitten up, I just compile what I need (that would be just konqueror) and everyone who wants a full blown kde desktop just emerges kde, I really don't see the problem |
Yeah no problems at all:
"It's been said before that split ebuilds would take much more time to emerge than the monolithic ones, due to the overhead of unpacking and running configure for every package. A complete emerge kde-meta could take 20-30% longer than a classic emerge kde, unacceptable in an already long compile.
Moreover, at present the split ebuilds always run make -f admin/Makefile.cvs (this means running autoconf, automake, etc. and several related kde-specific scripts). This adds an additional slowdown of approximately the same order as a configure run." |
One thing you are missing or ignoring are bugfixes or version bumps. Example, if a part of konqueror has a security advisory and a new version of it is released to fix the bug, with the old method, you would have to reemerge kdebase and possibly kdelibs which takes hours. With the new method, you would just be rebuilding the parts that need rebuilding, not the whole thing, and it would save you a hell of a lot of time, so the 20-30% figure up there, I wouldn't worry about. It's worth it in time saved in the long run.. and I say this as a current user of 3.4 b1 on a PII 400mhz. |
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Syntaxis
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Archangel1 wrote: | | I remember hearing Debian does this already |
It's not really a good comparison, because Debian's users won't even notice the additional overhead. It will be incurred only during the KDE maintainers' initial build for their architecture of choice, and subsequently on the autobuilder network when the source package is compiled for all the other architectures.
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Q-collective
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| DarkStalker wrote: | | One thing you are missing or ignoring are bugfixes or version bumps. Example, if a part of konqueror has a security advisory and a new version of it is released to fix the bug, with the old method, you would have to reemerge kdebase and possibly kdelibs which takes hours. With the new method, you would just be rebuilding the parts that need rebuilding, not the whole thing, and it would save you a hell of a lot of time, so the 20-30% figure up there, I wouldn't worry about. It's worth it in time saved in the long run.. and I say this as a current user of 3.4 b1 on a PII 400mhz. |
That is only a valid argument when the packages were developed and released per application, that is not the case, if a security bug or whatever treatens konq, then a new version of kdebase will be released, not a new version of konq. |
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zerojay
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Q-collective wrote: | | DarkStalker wrote: | | One thing you are missing or ignoring are bugfixes or version bumps. Example, if a part of konqueror has a security advisory and a new version of it is released to fix the bug, with the old method, you would have to reemerge kdebase and possibly kdelibs which takes hours. With the new method, you would just be rebuilding the parts that need rebuilding, not the whole thing, and it would save you a hell of a lot of time, so the 20-30% figure up there, I wouldn't worry about. It's worth it in time saved in the long run.. and I say this as a current user of 3.4 b1 on a PII 400mhz. |
That is only a valid argument when the packages were developed and released per application, that is not the case, if a security bug or whatever treatens konq, then a new version of kdebase will be released, not a new version of konq. |
That's right, but the only changes in this new version of kdebase will be the affected portions, which in this case is konqueror, and you'll be able to just update with the konqueror ebuild alone. |
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Lokheed
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| moocha wrote: | | Lokheed wrote: | | Yeah no problems at all: |
Nobody's forcing you to use the split ebuilds, so you can stop being annoyed now, mmkay? |
They will be. Gentoo plans to phase out the monolith releases if you read their KDE FAQs page.
Anyway my major concern here is this is NOT how KDE is supposed to be released. How do the Gentoo devs know what required and whats not? How can they rip out components and not know the consequences on stability?
I dont want my DE to behave awkwardly or be full of bugs because someone decided to go ahead and do this. I also dont want to learn a whole new method of installing KDE either. I dont have time to monkey with things that to me, werent broken.
I could care less about this, but after reading that they will eventuall phase out the monolith releases, I grew worrisome. |
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moocha
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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You're assuming they will be full of bugs before you even tried them. That's a bit too much paranoia for my taste. If you bother to read the split ebuilds HOWTO you'll notice that the monolithic ebuilds will be supported for the entire lifetime of 3.4 so they'll stabilize just fine.
If they're buggy - get involved. Test them. Improve them. The maintainers will bless the ground upon which you walk if you give positive feedback and can help.
As to 4. 0 - how bout worrying when it's actually here?
Also: If you want a stable system, don't run the ~unstable branch. It's that easy.
IMNSHO, this entire thread is nothing more than an alarmist half-informed non-issue. And nope, I'm not sorry about adopting a harsh tone. I intensely dislike FUD.
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Syntaxis
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Lokheed wrote: | | How do the Gentoo devs know what required and whats not? How can they rip out components and not know the consequences on stability? |
It's hardly a leap into the great unknown. As already mentioned, Debian's been splitting up KDE for years already.
| Quote: | | I also dont want to learn a whole new method of installing KDE either. |
It's not exactly rocket science to adapt to the change:
| http://dev.gentoo.org/~danarmak/kde-split-ebuilds.html wrote: | | Finally, for the exact equivalent of one of the monolithic packages - for instance, to get all the applications included in kdebase using split ebuilds - you can emerge kdebase-meta (or kdepim-meta, etc.) To get absolutely all KDE split ebuilds, emerge kde-meta. |
If you really have so little faith in the competence of the devs, why are you still using Gentoo?
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fuji
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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I don't like it myself... but in the end... I'll adapt. Good that Gentoo's not afraid to change....
Besides, the major change (dropping monolithic ebuilds) will happen at KDE 4. And from all the talk I've heard, KDE 4 will be changing a lot of things itself....
So personally, I'll keep using the monolithic or original ebuilds (and DO_NOT_COMPILE) until 3.4 runs its life at which point, I'll be too excited to get KDE4 up and running that split ebuilds wont be stopping me. |
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Lokheed
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| moocha wrote: | You're assuming they will be full of bugs before you even tried them. That's a bit too much paranoia for my taste. If you bother to read the split ebuilds HOWTO you'll notice that the monolithic ebuilds will be supported for the entire lifetime of 3.4 so they'll stabilize just fine.
If they're buggy - get involved. Test them. Improve them. The maintainers will bless the ground upon which you walk if you give positive feedback and can help.
As to 4. 0 - how bout worrying when it's actually here?
Also: If you want a stable system, don't run the ~unstable branch. It's that easy.
IMNSHO, this entire thread is nothing more than an alarmist half-informed non-issue. And nope, I'm not sorry about adopting a harsh tone. I intensely dislike FUD. |
OT: You are living in the town I was born in. I just noticed that...I have been dying to go back there as I havent seen it since I left and I was 4 at the time...small world.
Anyway, sorry you find my concerns and views so offensive. You "guys" take things to far and get your backs up to the wall with the slightest dissagreement with anything the devs do or the direction Gentoo goes.
Because I dont like the splitting of the monolith packages I completely distrust and have little faith in the devs and Gentoo itself, so therefore I should go and run off and use another distro. Isnt this the same mentality (even worse) than Windows? What happened to choice and freedom? I guess that gets thrown out the door, I get branded as a traitor to the human race, and run out of town on a rail? Enough of a slippery slope for you?
Whatever. From what I see are a bunch of angry people who release on these forums on anyone that might trigger something on that particular day. Sorry all your lives are shit and you need to dump on people without even taking into consideration their insight into the subject or their point of view.
Keep perpetuating your hate, it wont make you any happier in the end. Have a nice life buddy. Next time I will restrict myself to posts that crawl so far up the devs asses, I can taste the kind of bubblegum they chew.
The E-Factor kills another thread. |
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ralph
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Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Posts: 2001
Location: Hamburg
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Lokheed wrote: |
Because I dont like the splitting of the monolith packages I completely distrust and have little faith in the devs and Gentoo itself, so therefore I should go and run off and use another distro. |
Nope.
| Lokheed wrote: |
Anyway my major concern here is this is NOT how KDE is supposed to be released. How do the Gentoo devs know what required and whats not? How can they rip out components and not know the consequences on stability?
I dont want my DE to behave awkwardly or be full of bugs because someone decided to go ahead and do this. |
Guess where the connection is.
And stop playing the drama queen, you are emberassing yourself.
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Syntaxis
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Lokheed wrote: | | Because I dont like the splitting of the monolith packages I completely distrust and have little faith in the devs and Gentoo itself, so therefore I should go and run off and use another distro. |
Erm... while you didn't actually quote me, I assume that part in bold is in response to
| Syntaxis wrote: | | If you really have so little faith in the competence of the devs, why are you still using Gentoo? |
In which case, you've got entirely the wrong idea. I didn't tell you to get lost. I merely suggested that you might want to re-evaluate your choice, on the grounds that I personally wouldn't want to use something which I had so little faith in as to assume it'd be broken before I'd even tried it.
You really need to calm down. We're not all out to get you.  Besides, the content of your own post is far more offensive than that of the one you've quoted.
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Lokheed
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:41 am Post subject: |
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I like to question things rather than blindly following. From my testing KControl is an essential part of KDE, but there is a separate package for it...raises some concerns. But whatever, this whole thread isnt about defending myself...
Posted my concerns and hope the devs rethink the idea of stopping monolith builds when the time comes. It seems pointless to waste resources that could be better devoted to solidifying Gentoo, than on such trivial matters as how a DE gets installed. |
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zerojay
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| Lokheed wrote: | I like to question things rather than blindly following. From my testing KControl is an essential part of KDE, but there is a separate package for it...raises some concerns. But whatever, this whole thread isnt about defending myself...
Posted my concerns and hope the devs rethink the idea of stopping monolith builds when the time comes. It seems pointless to waste resources that could be better devoted to solidifying Gentoo, than on such trivial matters as how a DE gets installed. |
Kcontrol is an essential part of KDE, you're absolutely right, but for those people out there that just want to be able to install what is needed for a KDE program, like k3b, to run in Gnome, they certainly don't need Kcontrol, do they?
What you need to do is try out the KDE 3.4b1 ebuilds because it will show you how much better the process is more than anyone talking about it ever will. |
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truekaiser
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Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 801
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:32 am Post subject: |
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just great, more time to be wasted for micro-management that shouldn't be.
i thought portage was to make all this esayer not harder. |
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