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labrador
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Joined: 04 Oct 2003
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 Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject: Huh? |
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| djdunn wrote: | Gentoo is young its not yet perfect. The QA is fine even running ~x86 I find that most problems are caused by improperly setup applications.
What gets me is that people want to upgrade everything constantly, run a continuous system without reformats and never want to touch a configuration file. If you dont know what a configuration file does. Or what each line in the file does, guess what you dont know the most basic level about how to control the application you are running. You might as well complain about how you cant get a program to work when you dont know how to use the parameters
some of you people want it to be super stable. Thats a really complex problem with the continuous development system that gentoo has. |
I doubt you have ever run what is known as a server. Unlike desktops,
and operating systems like Windows, they are not reformatted and reinstalled
on a regular basis.
Servers require very good to excellent uptime, because, strange as it may seem,
people are literally using the applications and services on it around the clock.
That doesn't mean the user takes pep pills and sits at the console all night. A server
may be a mail server that handles 60,000 messages per day for 4000 users,
or a web server that has 100,000 hits per day (approx numbers from my workplace,
where Solaris and BSD currently provide these). A machine with 3 or 4 users
that runs a service doesn't have the same type of uptime and maintenance
challenges.
If you want to see some real life problems people are having, even in Gentoo
stable, just take a look in the Portage forum. If you never update your
packages, you will never see the issues that are at the core of this
discussion. Perhaps you never updated Windows either? Do you have
any idea why updating is valuable? If not, you would be just as happy
running Slackware. |
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Shadow Skill
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Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1023
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:03 am Post subject: |
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Actually it is the same because I could just as easily say you interact with [insert coding language here.] to achieve various results and be just as correct as you are period. Administrative tools should not simply break things because the creators of the tools stupidly assume that who ever is running the tool knows what every single last file does on the machine. It has to be more difficult than it currently is to screw up things with Gentoo if you want this thing to function in the real world. The following is from the Gentoo handbook so please don't ever attempt to tell me that --depclean is not for fixing dependencies: | Quote: | | Portage has the functionality to remove orphaned dependencies as well, but since the availability of software is dynamically dependent you first need to update your entire system fully, including the new changes you applied when changing USE flags. After this you can run emerge --depclean to remove the orphaned dependencies. When this is done, you need to rebuild the applications that were dynamically linked to the now-removed software titles but don't require them anymore. |
I would think that fixing orphaned dependencies is an action that counts as fixing dependencies. Just because a tool is intended to edit configuration tools doesn't mean it has an exscuse to render your system unbootable by reverting a file to a setup totally opposite from what you need for your system. In short it either better be intelligent enough to figure out what to edit [as I may not understand the given file.] or there better be a backup file created that you can go back to if you find the new file breaks something. I shouldn't need to spend hours figuring out which file broke and how it broke because of an update I should be able to revert readily to my old configuration file. If some mount point gets eaten by an update and the next time I boot the mount fails it should pause at the failure and tell me that last boot this occured as opposed to the current boot and then ask me how to handle the issue.
For the record Fedora core always tells me if yum.conf has been updated and automatically makes a backup copy, so this has already been done in part.
_________________
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Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.
"First there was nothing, so the lord gave us light. There was still nothing, but at least you could see it." |
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Pythonhead
Developer
Joined: 16 Dec 2002
Posts: 1801
Location: Redondo Beach, Republic of Calif.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: Huh? |
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| labrador wrote: |
I doubt you have ever run what is known as a server. Unlike desktops,
and operating systems like Windows, they are not reformatted and reinstalled
on a regular basis.
...
Servers require very good to excellent uptime, because, strange as it may seem,
people are literally using the applications and services on it around the clock.
That doesn't mean the user takes pep pills and sits at the console all night. A server
may be a mail server that handles 60,000 messages per day for 4000 users,
or a web server that has 100,000 hits per day (approx numbers from my workplace,
where Solaris and BSD currently provide these). A machine with 3 or 4 users
that runs a service doesn't have the same type of uptime and maintenance
challenges.
|
And what does any of this have to do with your system breaking with "update world"?
You're not running a server. |
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codergeek42
Bodhisattva
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 5142
Location: Anaheim, CA (USA)
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Huh? |
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| Pythonhead wrote: | And what does any of this have to do with your system breaking with "update world"?
You're not running a server. |
And if you ware running a Gentoo server it shouldn't be using ~arch packages.
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Shadow Skill
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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I think his point Python head is that if he is having these sorts of issues crop up administering three machines imagine what can happen if someone is actually administering machines in a server environment. His point has everything to do with update world breaking stuff on his machines.
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Dolio
l33t
Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Posts: 650
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| Shadow Skill wrote: | | Actually it is the same because I could just as easily say you interact with [insert coding language here.] to achieve various results and be just as correct as you are period. |
Personally, I don't see how you can argue this with a straight face. Most configuration file formats aren't anywhere near as complex as actually hacking the source would be. Most are just the text equivalent of the check boxes and such in GUI configuration panels. The few examples I can think of where configuration files are almost like programming (FVWM being the best example I can come up with), the languages are all domain specific (directly related to the specifics of the program), and are therefore much simpler than general purpose programming languages. Your assertion that editing configuration files and hacking code are the same is rather silly.
| Shadow Skill wrote: | | Administrative tools should not simply break things because the creators of the tools stupidly assume that who ever is running the tool knows what every single last file does on the machine. It has to be more difficult than it currently is to screw up things with Gentoo if you want this thing to function in the real world. |
What does this mean? Who says you need to know what every last file on your machine does not to break it? I certainly don't know what every file on my system does, and I don't have anywhere near the level of problems you and others are describing. I rarely have problems at all. What are you all doing differently?
| Shadow Skill wrote: | | The following is from the Gentoo handbook so please don't ever attempt to tell me that --depclean is not for fixing dependencies. ... I would think that fixing orphaned dependencies is an action that counts as fixing dependencies. |
Read what you quoted:
| Quote: | | Portage has the functionality to remove orphaned dependencies as well |
| Quote: | | When this is done, you need to rebuild the applications that were dynamically linked to the now-removed software titles but don't require them anymore. |
--depclean isn't fixing anything. It's removing the packages that no other installed packages depend on. That's what "orphaned dependencies" are. There's nothing broken about them, other than the fact that they're using up disk space and they don't need to be there. If you have broken dependencies (presumably dynamic linking errors), and need to fix those, then revdep-rebuild is the correct tool.
| Shadow Skill wrote: | | Just because a tool is intended to edit configuration tools doesn't mean it has an exscuse to render your system unbootable by reverting a file to a setup totally opposite from what you need for your system. |
Do you want it to be able to modify your configuration files or not?
| Shadow Skill wrote: | | In short it either better be intelligent enough to figure out what to edit [as I may not understand the given file.] |
How is it possible that you previously modified the file to get it into a configuration that you, personally needed, and then totally forgot about anything having to do with it? There aren't that many files that require specific attention; I don't think it's too hard to keep 10 or so files that you've hand edited and need your attention. In any case, dispatch-conf solves this problem, and keeps track of which files you've edited. Go look it up, like people have told you.
| Shadow Skill wrote: | | or there better be a backup file created that you can go back to if you find the new file breaks something. |
dispatch-conf does this as well.
| Shadow Skill wrote: | | For the record Fedora core always tells me if yum.conf has been updated and automatically makes a backup copy, so this has already been done in part. |
etc-update always told me when my various configuration files changed as well. Then I'd go through them and update them appropriately. If I'd never heard of a configuration file before, I just let the update go through, and never had a problem. If I'd heard of the configuration file, I'd take a peep and see if I remembered editing it at all, and generally didn't have problems. Now dispatch-conf keeps track of which files I've edited and mainly shows those. And it makes backups for me too, though I've never had to use them.
You use Fedora? Good. I'm sure it works for you. Do you just hang out here to complain about etc-update whenever the topic comes up?
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Shadow Skill
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:40 am Post subject: |
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You are not using your head what I am telling you is that saying because you do not understand a config file you do not understand the basic usage of a program so therefore its all your fault and not nessecarily the guy who made the tool or tools, is like saying because you do not know the code of which you are interacting with it is your fault and not nessecarily the guy wqho made the tool or tools. Fixing orphaned dependencies is a part of fixing dependencies so stop trying to tell me it is not. It even instructs you to run --depclean before revdep rebuild BOTH tools are a part of managing dependencies not just one or the other please stop trying even the manual refutes you. I mentioned Fedora as an example of something that already has achieved what I outlined so what is this *adopts whiny voice "Fedora works for you great stop talking about Gentoo you poppyhead!" argument should you not bring up examples of things that actually work when you are escribing how something should be improved? What is funny to me is that your last sentence reflects the same mentality that Debian users supposedly have that being an attitude that Debian is entirely perfect and does not need any form of improvement.
You can't run a system which requires you to micromanage it in a production environment especially a server environment, so you have to make the system LESS high maintenence the nuking of config files so easily is just ONE aspect of the problems that Gentoo needs to solve before it can become a product that can really be used in production environments. Look face it there are a great many things that do work about Gentoo, but there are also a great many fiarly important things that do not in fact work for Gentoo. I'm tired of people overtly or covertly declaring that someone has said something blasphemous against distro x because they don't decide to lobotomize themselves and swear a distro or a tool is perfect. Then they go tell all their friends that this is the greatest thing ever and eventually one of them finds out the reality of the situation, that this distro or tool is not perfect and could use some improvement, but the religiosity that some people posses seems to prevent them from seeing that.
I have a friend who recently installed FC3 do you think I told him "rpm is the greatest thing, and if you can't find an rpm feel free to mix source code." Of course not, I told him that when you do that your system will eventually break because the rpm package system is simply broken and this applies to all rpm based distrobutions. I don't have a problem recommending something to people with caveats or not recommending them at all even though I may use them and generally like the way they function if I find that they may be shot in some key areas. I don't have tp defend anything I use just because I use it, if there is merit to a complaint there is merit to a complaint I wish people would stop defending products soley because they own or use them and defend them based on the products real merits.
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Ware wa mutekinari.
Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.
"First there was nothing, so the lord gave us light. There was still nothing, but at least you could see it." |
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labrador
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Posts: 316
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Huh? |
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| Pythonhead wrote: | | labrador wrote: |
I doubt you have ever run what is known as a server. Unlike desktops,
and operating systems like Windows, they are not reformatted and reinstalled
on a regular basis.
...
Servers require very good to excellent uptime, because, strange as it may seem,
people are literally using the applications and services on it around the clock.
That doesn't mean the user takes pep pills and sits at the console all night. A server
may be a mail server that handles 60,000 messages per day for 4000 users,
or a web server that has 100,000 hits per day (approx numbers from my workplace,
where Solaris and BSD currently provide these). A machine with 3 or 4 users
that runs a service doesn't have the same type of uptime and maintenance
challenges.
|
And what does any of this have to do with your system breaking with "update world"?
You're not running a server. |
That is correct, and I've written to explain why.
At the University where I work, several people in the Computing Services group have
used Gentoo on their home or desktop systems. We liked the idea of portage and many other
things. However after using Gentoo on our own machines, I don't know anyone
that would recommend it for server room duties at work. We also offer Linux
as an option for the laptops that all students have, and again Gentoo isn't
a good fit there because it is too easy for a newbie to shoot themselves in the foot.
I think Gentoo is closer to providing a fit where BSD is traditionally used,
but for reasons I've outlined, it consumes too much time to maintain. It isn't
impossible, just time consuming compared to other options. |
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jsosic
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Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 510
Location: Split (Croatia)
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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I've read whole thread and now I'd like to conclude...
GLEP 19 is a nice thing, and it has my thumb upped. I see they are looking for volunteers for that project and that is great. I think that GLEP 19 is trying to do exactly what labrador wants. It's now up to him to join that community.
Regarding other Gentoo "flaws"... etc-update is nice tool but you must be very carefull when you use it. But, you have to be careful with rm * too. And in both cases you must know what are you doing and what do you want to be done. So problem is in users, not gentoo. I find etc-update pretty simpler than dispatch-conf, so I still use it. If I notice a config file I know I edited, I stop the proces by CTRL+C and merge changes manually. System borks and 95% of errors are on the user side, not developer/maintainers...
Reverse-dependencies. That is the thing that is IMHO the biggest wound of Gentoo. I don't know if it's working on implementing them into portage, but without them portage is much much weaker than it should be. They MUST be implemented...
I've defended Gentoo so far, and often said "Go to another distro if you don't like something about Gentoo", and I stay with that opinion. But that doesn't mean that I don't think gentoo can improve even more. It can, but I hate seeing people demanding something and still giving nothing in return to the comunity. That people are like bad advertising, and they are often turning people away from the product. And they don't deserve comforting words, but a sharp sword. |
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labrador
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Posts: 316
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| jsosic wrote: | System borks and 95% of errors are on the user side, not developer/maintainers...
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People keep saying that, but I have no idea why. Every time that
I have a week worth of stuff to update, I always run into an issue
that is not my fault.
Today's issue is linux-headers of the 2.6 variety being pushed by emerge -u world,
onto my 2.4 kernel box. I think that is a little strange and I check out the
reports of others on the forums. Apparently it does lead to various troubles
if you are staying with the 2.4 kernel. So how do I make emerge -u world stay
put with 2.4 linux-headers? Some more forums research and I read
this thread:
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-315758-highlight-linuxheaders.html
For other users that didn't do the research, there might have been
even more time consumed on this issue if they simply trusted
what portage was saying is ready for prime time.
Again, the concept that everyone can be a developer is a myth. We can't
all be chemists, doctors, investment analysts or anything else requiring a high
degree of knowledge and skill. I do contribute what I can in the time I
have available, and this isn't about to become more flexible because a GLEP
exists. I've probably spent about 5 hours just on this thread, clarifying my points
and addressing misunderstandings.
Having said that, it will be interesting to see if the stable tree concept
can get going. The last time I asked about it, developers responded
that it was dormant due to lack of resources. |
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Dolio
l33t
Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Posts: 650
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Shadow Skill wrote: | | You are not using your head |
Neither are you. I suppose it's debatable which of us is using less of his head.
| Shadow Skill wrote: | | saying because you do not understand a config file you do not understand the basic usage of a program so therefore its all your fault and not nessecarily the guy who made the tool or tools, is like saying because you do not know the code of which you are interacting with it is your fault and not nessecarily the guy wqho made the tool or tools. |
When using some programs, especially in a "production environment," it is important to know the config files. This is not true of all programs, but it is true of some. You can't expect your software to run perfectly for you without having to change some configurations from time to time. You can, however, reasonably expect to have software run well for you without having to hack the code directly, assuming the software is well written.
| Shadow Skill wrote: | | Fixing orphaned dependencies is a part of fixing dependencies so stop trying to tell me it is not. |
Whatever. Here's the bottom line: You don't like the big, scary warning message on --depclean. However:
1) There's a real possibility that it could break something.
2) You can probably survive without ever running it.
So I think it's prudent to err on the side of caution, as --depclean does.
| Shadow Skill wrote: | | I mentioned Fedora as an example of something that already has achieved what I outlined |
Gentoo has already achieved what you outlined. You just haven't been listening.
| Shadow Skill wrote: | | so what is this *adopts whiny voice "Fedora works for you great stop talking about Gentoo you poppyhead!" |
Well, I certainly didn't call you a "poppyhead." However, as far as I can tell, you're not listening to anyone's advice here. You just want to argue with people without actually learning anything. If you don't want to learn anything, perhaps Gentoo isn't the distribution for you.
Say what you will about Debian and so on, but your posts here could be read as trolling, so pardon me if I get a little frustrated.
| Shadow Skill wrote: | | You can't run a system which requires you to micromanage it in a production environment especially a server environment, so you have to make the system LESS high maintenence the nuking of config files so easily is just ONE aspect of the problems that Gentoo needs to solve before it can become a product that can really be used in production environments. |
I don't consider what I do with Gentoo micromanaging. It typically takes me less than a minute to handle any config file updates. What are you doing differently?
You've also been repeatedly told to use dispatch-conf which is more robust than etc-update. You obviously haven't taken that advice, so why are you still yelling here? If you don't use the solutions that people give you, it's your own fault. Do you want it to be automatically set up for you? Well, Gentoo typically doesn't do that, and if that's what you want, you'd probably be better served using another distribution. Am I a Debian elitist telling you to STFU? No, I'm just looking at reality.
I'm not annoyed that you don't think Gentoo is perfect. I'm annoyed that you haven't listened to any of the advice that anyone has given you. If anyone here is religious, it's not me. You, however, have seemed to adopted the "Gentoo configuration management is hard" dogma, and refuse to listen to anything that might be evidence to the contrary, or make your situation easier. That's your fault.
| Shadow Skill wrote: | | Of course not, I told him that when you do that your system will eventually break because the rpm package system is simply broken and this applies to all rpm based distrobutions. |
What do you suggest we tell people about Gentoo, then? Here's what I've come up with from our conversations:
"Well, I don't have any configuration management problems, but if you refuse to use the new, better tools, and just blindly overwrite your config files, you may have some problems."
Does that accurately describe the situation?
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Shadow Skill
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:35 am Post subject: |
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Riiiiiiiiight its a GOOD totally exceptable idea to run a tool that clearly states it can bork your system use at your own risk, are you on Earth? The first thing out of the mouth of someine who shares your inability to think would be why are you using a tool that clearly states such a warning... Its all YOUR FAULT YOU STUPID NOOB CAN'T YOU SEE THE BIG WARNING! Its like using a cvs build and complaining that its broken or does not compile. What logic says its a good idea to use tools that state they are not safe for routine system maintenence?
Take a look at the message --depclean gives: | Code: | *** WARNING *** : DEPCLEAN CAN SERIOUSLY IMPAIR YOUR SYSTEM. USE CAUTION.
*** WARNING *** : (Cancel: CONTROL-C) -- ALWAYS VERIFY ALL PACKAGES IN THE
*** WARNING *** : CANDIDATE LIST FOR SANITY BEFORE ALLOWING DEPCLEAN TO
*** WARNING *** : UNMERGE ANY PACKAGES.
*** WARNING *** :
*** WARNING *** : USE FLAGS MAY HAVE AN EXTREME EFFECT ON THE OUTPUT.
*** WARNING *** : SOME LIBRARIES MAY BE USED BY PACKAGES BUT ARE NOT
*** WARNING *** : CONSIDERED TO BE A DEPEND DUE TO USE FLAG SETTINGS.
*** WARNING *** : emerge --update --deep --newuse world TO VERIFY
*** WARNING *** : SANITY IN THIS REGARD.
*** WARNING *** :
*** WARNING *** : Packages in the list that are desired may be added
*** WARNING *** : directly to the world file to cause them to be ignored
*** WARNING *** : by depclean and maintained in the future. BREAKAGES DUE
*** WARNING *** : TO UNMERGING AN ==IN-USE LIBRARY== MAY BE REPAIRED BY
*** WARNING *** : MERGING *** THE PACKAGE THAT COMPLAINS *** ABOUT THE
*** WARNING *** : MISSING LIBRARY.
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Coupled with the fact that there is no real reverse dependency in portage you have to preform the operation depclean performs in one shot instead of inline during unmerge operations which makes this tool even less of a good idea not to mention it pays attention to use flags in make.conf so it can make the output even wierder. Yet you are trying to tell me something that says something like that is a good thing to use to maintain system stability and not have to go around figuring out what broke and how which is what the command is inviting....Come back to Earth please.
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Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.
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Dolio
l33t
Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Posts: 650
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:56 am Post subject: |
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Unless you start actually reading my posts, this conversation is a waste of time.
Have a nice day.
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Shadow Skill
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Dolio first you swear removing orphaned dependencies is not a part of fixing dependencies, then you try to tell me that a config file is a control interface, which it is absolutely not config files are only there for settings and do not nessecarily give insight on how to use a program so editing aa config file does not show you know how to use a program nessecarily. So you have shown that you don't know what a control interface is, then finally you claim that its totally reasonably to just ignore explicit warnings about the dangers of using a tool like depclean which clearly states it can be dangerous in really huge letters and even in eye catching red. Then finally you quit claiming I don't read what you say, how rich; the OP said something about one of the tools one poster mentioned highlighting the fact that it says its something to the effect of it not exactly being stable use at your own risk, guess what this thread is about maintaining stability [especially in production environments,] without having to micromanage the machines running the system so it won't be good if depclean breaks something relatively important to operation on a server and the administrator has to sit down for thirty minutes to an hour or even more diagnosing and hopefully resolving the issue. Companies can loose quite a bit of money in such a situation, which is why the system should really endeavor to make such scenarios as infrequent as possible, which Gentoo presently does not, it in fact makes it easier for these things to happen with greater frequency than with other bleeding edge systems.
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Ware wa mutekinari.
Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.
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dalek
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Posts: 1353
Location: Mississippi USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Well I may regret this but here goes anyway. I have not been running Gentoo for a very long time but I am VERY happy with it. Most of the problems I have had are ones I caused because I was warned but did not listen. I have used Mandrake, my first Linux distro, and it was crappy to say the least. It would lock up and I would have to hit the reset button to get it back. Nothing would do anything, including the lights on the keyboard. Well, sometimes they would blink at me.  Updating was even worse. THAT is why I switched. Something, hell ANYTHING had to be better.
As for stabilty, well:
| Code: | root@smoker / # uptime
03:16:42 up 143 days, 19:52, 3 users, load average: 0.05, 0.09, 0.03
root@smoker / # |
I have done a emerge -ev world twice in the last couple of days with only one error. Something to do with java-gtk. It works so who cares. It is already installed, it'll get fixed later I guess. Newer version most likely. COOL!!
I like Gentoo. I can update my rig in just a few minutes and I still use etc-update. I haven't screwed up a config file in a long time now, only did that once and yes it was fstab. My command to update: emerge sync && emerge -ef world && emerge -uv world. None of that -D crap either. That was the one time I didn't listen. The fetch only part because I am on dial-up. Yea, thought you had problems with taking up time huh?? Go get KDE with a 26K connection. You can eat and wait on it to come out the other end.  Don't get me started on Open Office. 
Overall, if I were to start a business tomorrow I would use Gentoo without hesitation. It has served me well. It sure as heck beats windoze to death, stability and security wise.
Now if I can just keep my fish alive. 
Later
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Shadow Skill
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| dalek wrote: | Well I may regret this but here goes anyway. I have not been running Gentoo for a very long time but I am VERY happy with it. Most of the problems I have had are ones I caused because I was warned but did not listen. I have used Mandrake, my first Linux distro, and it was crappy to say the least. It would lock up and I would have to hit the reset button to get it back. Nothing would do anything, including the lights on the keyboard. Well, sometimes they would blink at me. Updating was even worse. THAT is why I switched. Something, hell ANYTHING had to be better.
As for stabilty, well:
| Code: | root@smoker / # uptime
03:16:42 up 143 days, 19:52, 3 users, load average: 0.05, 0.09, 0.03
root@smoker / # |
I have done a emerge -ev world twice in the last couple of days with only one error. Something to do with java-gtk. It works so who cares. It is already installed, it'll get fixed later I guess. Newer version most likely. COOL!!
I like Gentoo. I can update my rig in just a few minutes and I still use etc-update. I haven't screwed up a config file in a long time now, only did that once and yes it was fstab. My command to update: emerge sync && emerge -ef world && emerge -uv world. None of that -D crap either. That was the one time I didn't listen. The fetch only part because I am on dial-up. Yea, thought you had problems with taking up time huh?? Go get KDE with a 26K connection. You can eat and wait on it to come out the other end. Don't get me started on Open Office.
Overall, if I were to start a business tomorrow I would use Gentoo without hesitation. It has served me well. It sure as heck beats windoze to death, stability and security wise.
Now if I can just keep my fish alive.
Later
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Well I personally have not had many problems with Gentoo after the fstab incedent nor did I say I did I was just using that as an experience I had [Dude anything even the most bleeding of bleeding edge systems is "stable" compared to Windows eeerrrrrr Mandrake I kept this thing going five days straight no slowdown, but had to break my uptime streak as I rebooted while trying to fix something related to sound yesterday morning.. sigh.] However the OP isn't exactly talking about systems that are not updated frequently or single user systems like my own, he is talking about environments with a good number of machines and I don't disagree with him on the issue. With that said I don't think I can put Fedora back on my desktop after using Gentoo for a month now I think the installer[Its not exactly a package management tool yet, as there are too many tools/features not implemented in Portage proper yet.] has a great deal of potential and with refinement could set the standard for a uniform installation method for all Linux distrobutions. I am still very torn about putting it on my laptop though.
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Ware wa mutekinari.
Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.
"First there was nothing, so the lord gave us light. There was still nothing, but at least you could see it." |
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gentoo-anfaenger
n00b
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:15 am Post subject: |
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I am very sad if I read how the conversation here is going on.
The original poster wanted just say that there is some QA lacking in Gentoo.
And _if_ the people here would know how to make a conversation they would
discuss this topic to find a better way of QA in Gentoo.
But they super_duper-Gentoo-h4Xx0rs come and tell every post
that they are super happy with Gentoo (not the topic!) that they have the best
config settings and if every one uses their config settings with their h4Xx0R-tools
1500 server clusters running a billion $ biz
would 0wN the world with Gentoo (again not the topic).
No one execpt labrador and Shadow Skill can tell that there is "Something Rotten
in Gentoo" . Every post makes a false direction regarding the topic.
Then Shadow Skill tried hard to explain that topic. And he was even
told he is a troll.
It is very sad that with this community Gentoo never is going to be
second RHEL. From the underlying technology and services this
distro gives, it could even be a better RHEL (as it could serve the purpose
of customizing to a business need better than any distro out there), but
not with this community behind.
I think the time for a fork has come.
I think building a community out of members who understand what QA and
stability, reliability, security and TCO really means has come. |
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dalek
Veteran
Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 1353
Location: Mississippi USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:45 am Post subject: |
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I see where the OP is coming from. I may be lucky and just not had the problems he is having. I also think he has every right to say what is not making him happy. I also think he has some good ideas, if anyone is listening that matters anyway.
As I said I would use Gentoo if it were me. It sure beats windoze. I would want mine to be secure as is possible as well. I am on dial-up so that helps me a lot right there. I'm not that worried about security. I do a emerge sync and emerge -uv world every night just to make sure I can keep it up to date. Business with broadband would make that different though. OpenBSD router/firewall right off the bat for sure. Then I, like him, would be more concerned about security issues.
As I said, he has some good issues that, if true, need to be addressed IMHO. I would like to see Gentoo be as sucessfull as possible. That is one reason I am not working on the project, I would screw it up. It would be a nightmare. I do report any problems though. I recently started a bug report, after finding out it was not just me, just to make it better for others. It was a simple fix really. They changed something, we resynced, and it was fixed.
Where are the people that need to read his concerns is my question though???
I guess I was wrong again, I don't regret posting, yet anyway. 
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psyqil
Advocate
Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 2767
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| gentoo-anfaenger wrote: | I think the time for a fork has come.
I think building a community out of members who understand what QA and
stability, reliability, security and TCO really means has come. |
Good luck... | labrador wrote: | | The last time I asked about it, developers responded that it was dormant due to lack of resources. |
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kimchi_sg
Advocate
Joined: 26 Nov 2004
Posts: 2969
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| gentoo-anfaenger wrote: | I think the time for a fork has come.
I think building a community out of members who understand what QA and
stability, reliability, security and TCO really means has come. |
Try zynot then.
The problem is, it's so stable, it hasn't has any files released after 2 years. |
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dalek
Veteran
Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 1353
Location: Mississippi USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| kimchi_sg wrote: |
Try zynot then.
The problem is, it's so stable, it hasn't has any files released after 2 years. |
Looks like the forum is about dead too. There are very few new posts that I can find. Most of them are over a couple years old.
Is it still active???
Later
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kimchi_sg
Advocate
Joined: 26 Nov 2004
Posts: 2969
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| dalek wrote: | | kimchi_sg wrote: |
Try zynot then.
The problem is, it's so stable, it hasn't has any files released after 2 years. |
Looks like the forum is about dead too. There are very few new posts that I can find. Most of them are over a couple years old.
Is it still active??? |
No. My guess is they'll be revived only after 3 more stable Debian releases.  |
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dalek
Veteran
Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 1353
Location: Mississippi USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| kimchi_sg wrote: |
No. My guess is they'll be revived only after 3 more stable Debian releases. |
Never even seen Debian but it is still funny.
Oh, my fish are still living too. I have a 55 gallon aquarium.
Later
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kimchi_sg
Advocate
Joined: 26 Nov 2004
Posts: 2969
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| dalek wrote: | | Never even seen Debian but it is still funny. |
You'll get to see it this year.  |
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dalek
Veteran
Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 1353
Location: Mississippi USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| kimchi_sg wrote: | | You'll get to see it this year. |
Not as long as Gentoo is around. Why do you think I'll be seeing Debian??
Later
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