Does Gentoo Linux need an install program?

Blurpy · Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 6:50 pm Post subject:

I think installing Gentoo the way it is now, without an installer, is part of the Gentoo charm. I like it the way it is

And we learn a lot too!

The Khan Artist · Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 7:21 pm Post subject:

Blurpy · Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 7:47 pm Post subject:

axxackall · Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 8:18 pm Post subject:

what makes the difference between installation of Gentoo and installation of packages from Portage?

In one case we have the best in the world package management system and even some people insightfully building GUI on a top of it.

In the other case we have some informal documents, very friendly forum and not-bad LiveCD booting virtually on every machine. And no cross-process installation script like in RedHat. Even Slackware has something, why not in Gentoo?

Common people. Add at least something to pkg_config parts. Something that will look for some info in other files, ask user to enter some values (or just to choose the profile).

Many users will appreciate "ebuild iptable.ebuild config" if it will ask questions and configure the firewall. No need to ask questions about everything as basic network information is already available from other scripts, configuration files, variables or just from output of other programs. Or alternatively it can be done in a way similar to java-config.

Once we'll have enough config scripts it will be a matter of few days to create the wrapping interactive procedure based on readline, ncurses, GTK, Qt, CGI, ZPT or anything else.

choenig · Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 12:52 am Post subject:

I just can speak of my own experiance.
And it was that thing, that after my first gentoo install I really knew the basics of portage.

When I installed debian the first time (yes, thats a great installer), and it suddenly said "Welcome to your new installed system" I didn't know at all how to go on installing stuff.

So, definately NO.

take care, have fun
/christian

axxackall · Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 3:08 am Post subject:

iplayfast · Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 4:38 am Post subject:

pubecon · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:42 am Post subject:

if there was an installer I think it'd need to be called something else. I see no way to combine
the power of customization and learning
with
an ...installer?

I AM THE INSTALLER

EvilReagan · n00b Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 8 Location: Rochester, NY

Gnufsh · Guru Joined: 28 Dec 2002 Posts: 400 Location: Portland, OR

I do not want an installer at all.

fourfats · n00b Joined: 02 Mar 2003 Posts: 20 Location: Baltimore MD

no, i like how it is. I learned more from installing gentoo than I did in two years of using redhat and mandrake. as long as gentoo keeps up2date info on how to install, then there shouldn't be a problem.

--simon

jufoa · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 9:11 am Post subject:

installer is a twe edged sword..
in other hand it is good to learn how to set up the OS from scratch and in other hand it would attract more users to have nice installer.

iplayfast · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 2:53 pm Post subject:

Sometimes, you just want the system. I've been through the install process a few times. I would like to have a system up and running in the first hour like most other distros. I agree that going through the install process by hand is a great learning process, but sometimes you just want the system.

Gnufsh · Guru Joined: 28 Dec 2002 Posts: 400 Location: Portland, OR

You'll never have the system up that fast if you compile from source.

iplayfast · Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 3:23 am Post subject:

cbreaker · Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2003 9:46 am Post subject:

Like someone else said, sure, it's good for "newbies" to get Gentoo installed not having an installer. Woo woo. I installed plenty of mini-distributions that installed in very much the same way (I used "Core Linux" on a lot of firewall-type machines.)

I really don't see how installing it manually really helps out the Newbie so much that the arguement holds that much weight. Seriously, you follow the docs almost verbatim on most machines that it might as well be an installer itself. When you have a document that tells you step by step exactly what to type, what kind of retention do you think that information will have in a zero-linux-knowledge person?

I would love to have an installer, even a simple text-mode line by line installer asking questions. It would streamline installing new machines for me quite a bit, and would ensure that every machine gets at least basically set up in the same way; less chance for anomolies due to the human factor.

Setting up the kernel could still be done manually; it's easy to dump a kernel config file somewhere that you could use on similarly configured machines. Kernel builds on modern systems don't take long.

I think there's a lot more arguement for "pro-installer" then "no-installer" since the only arguement for "no-installer" seems to be "But... the newbies..." I thought Gentoo wasn't a distribution for Newbies anyways?

xaviorm · n00b Joined: 07 Mar 2003 Posts: 24

BSD has had a instlaler for quite a time now and it hasen't detracted from the fact that it is a good system.

Lowering barriers to entry is a good thing not a bad one. I'm more likely to stick with an operating system if I can actully get it to work. I have spent more than a week getting a solid gentoo box up and running and I for the most part know what I am doing. A total newb doesn't need to deal with the pain of finding a typo that they missed or a kernel config that for some reason breaks everything. Get the box up and running and then start mucking with it to make it better.

When I first started I went with bsd over linux for a few reasons. 1 I could get a box up and running easily. 2. I can build a very basic box and not have a bunch of useless crap on it. 3 the ports.

gentoo solves 2 of these three problems. an installer fixes the last one.
Since going with BSD I was allowed to learn at my own pace how things worked and a few years later I'm looking at linux again. mostly because of the better desktop operation. Being able to learn on a working system was a good thing not a bad thing.

I have always thought that elitism is kinda silly and it seems that to some this is the argument for keeping linux difficult. (the i did my dues now you do yours mentality) Aren't we all on the same team here? Gentoo is pretty nice right now because you can get help easily. Linux over all used to be that way too until it got popular and the people in the chat rooms got huffy when you asked the same question that has been answered 40 times in the last month but remains poorly documented. I hope gentoo doesn't take that path and that people remain open to stupid questions from newbs.

ok soap box off now.
peace.

xaviorm · n00b Joined: 07 Mar 2003 Posts: 24

BSD has had a instlaler for quite a time now and it hasen't detracted from the fact that it is a good system.

Lowering barriers to entry is a good thing not a bad one. I'm more likely to stick with an operating system if I can actully get it to work. I have spent more than a week getting a solid gentoo box up and running and I for the most part know what I am doing. A total newb doesn't need to deal with the pain of finding a typo that they missed or a kernel config that for some reason breaks everything. Get the box up and running and then start mucking with it to make it better.

When I first started I went with bsd over linux for a few reasons. 1 I could get a box up and running easily. 2. I can build a very basic box and not have a bunch of useless crap on it. 3 the ports.

gentoo solves 2 of these three problems. an installer fixes the last one.
Since going with BSD I was allowed to learn at my own pace how things worked and a few years later I'm looking at linux again. mostly because of the better desktop operation. Being able to learn on a working system was a good thing not a bad thing.

I have always thought that elitism is kinda silly and it seems that to some this is the argument for keeping linux difficult. (the i did my dues now you do yours mentality) Aren't we all on the same team here? Gentoo is pretty nice right now because you can get help easily. Linux over all used to be that way too until it got popular and the people in the chat rooms got huffy when you asked the same question that has been answered 40 times in the last month but remains poorly documented. I hope gentoo doesn't take that path and that people remain open to stupid questions from newbs.

ok soap box off now.
peace.

Thiemo · Tux's lil' helper Joined: 20 Nov 2002 Posts: 138

I, personally would like to see a install programme, much more even a GUI over emerge. However, I think a decision upon this should be made by the responsible(s) who define the target customers. If they like to get a desktop distro for the average user, I feel it would be wise to have a installer. If Gentoo is directed towards cracks and wanna-be cracks, I'd consider the option to install it both ways be best.

Cheers

Thiemo
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caiuschen · n00b Joined: 24 Jan 2003 Posts: 12 Location: Olympia, WA

I would support an installer program designed to speed up deployment, but I have mixed feelings about an installer designed to lower the learning curve. On one hand, I believe that computers should be as easy to use as possible but still have the power available to learn. On the other hand, it was the specifically the purportedly hard-core set up of Gentoo that attracted me to it. "If you get Gentoo set up, then it's a major accomplishment."

That sort of feel.

It seems like a sort of elitism; but I think the learning experience from installing Gentoo from Stage 1 is very real. While possibly an install script would allow just as much configurability, learning to edit the configuration files yourself with a tool readily available on any Linux platform is a much more valuable experience than using a specialized script specific to Gentoo.

Part of what makes a distribution is the community surrounding it; to make installing Gentoo drastically easier would definitly alter the userbase. I think RedHat and SuSE should be enough to cater to the more mainstream types. Gentoo fills a nice niche.

That being said... something designed to speed up the configuration process would not be bad. I think putting a nice long warning/lecture describing the benefits of doing the install the hard way at the beginning of any install-program would make the Gentoo spirit clear, heh. :wink:

Ellidi · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:41 pm Post subject:

I must say that I learned aLOT by going through the install, step-by-step, with the install guide..
If It would've been set up automatically.. I wouldn't be half as interested in linux right now.
Just like with RH.. I put it up in an hour and learned nothing.
My first Gentoo install took like.. 3 days or something, and I learned more than I could imagine someone could in the lifespan off a fly..

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snutte · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2003 5:13 pm Post subject:

NO

All i have to say.

klarnox · Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2003 8:09 pm Post subject:

I wouldn't like a Gentoo Installer. The main reason I tried Gentoo in the first place was to learn more about how Linux works. If Gentoo had an installer, I probably would have passed it up for some other distro.

magnet · Guru Joined: 16 Mar 2003 Posts: 582 Location: france

Gentoo is not intended for ppl without basic linux/unix knowledge.
an install program won t correct that.
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gsfgf · Veteran Joined: 08 May 2002 Posts: 1266

we need binary packages a la freebsd. Also, imo we could use an installer so you could get all desired installation options set at once and then let the entire install go unattended. i'm still working on that though.
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