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EldermysticRazorsnout
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Joined: 06 Mar 2005
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 Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| codergeek42 wrote: | | Umm...whoopdydoo? I've got a decent amount of RAM/swap (256M/~1.3G) and I think I've hit my swap only a few times while emerging stuff. Really, I could care less if Vim used another meg or two or five or ten. What happens when I click the gVim launcher on my panel? gVim pops up instantly. |
Sounds like you are agreeing with what I have been saying, that whining about bloat is a total load of BS. I guess that makes you a troll now, too.  |
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codergeek42
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| firephoto wrote: | This isn't aimed at you directly codergeek42 so don't take it that way but isn't this a little hypocritical when you replace vim/kate with the reiser4 debate?  We can't have reiser4 in a vanilla kernel because some don't want it there because it is "broken" supposedly but yet it can't break anything if you "DON'T USE IT" right? lol |
Not at all. I don't like Reiser4 because, in my opinion, the way it handles filesystem semantics is completely wrong. I've read through the a lot of ideas behind it and none of it seems "innovative" to me at all. | Quote: | | And btw I use kate as a text editor, it gets the job done and there's nothing complicated about it since it's interface is pretty much the same as the rest of KDE. |
You use KDE? And you're ranting on about how a text editor is bloated?!  I find that very funny. (I've got nothing against KDE though, it's simply funny because of the irony in this situation...)
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firephoto
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| codergeek42 wrote: | | firephoto wrote: | | And btw I use kate as a text editor, it gets the job done and there's nothing complicated about it since it's interface is pretty much the same as the rest of KDE. |
You use KDE? And you're ranting on about how a text editor is bloated?! I find that very funny. (I've got nothing against KDE though, it's simply funny because of the irony in this situation...) |
huh? I guess I missed the part where I was talking about something being bloated???
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Shadow Skill
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Elder is talking about programs that have bloated code that slows them down not programs that have features which is what people in the Linux world tend to mean when they abuse the term, he is far from a troll, what I smell is someone being over sensitive when he or she has not understood the context of the OP's use of the term bloat.
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wjholden
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Location: Augusta, GA
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| The Book Of Mozilla wrote: | | And the Penguin said unto his loyal Unices, "on that day when VIM becometh fat and slow minded, sinful yet strong amongst others, the day cometh when the truely faithful will find me bleeding beside a stream. And then thee shalt wave the shining sed in judgement, for by hacks may hacks blood be shed. |
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codergeek42
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Joined: 05 Apr 2004
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Location: Anaheim, CA (USA)
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| EldermysticRazorsnout wrote: | | Sounds like you are agreeing with what I have been saying, that whining about bloat is a total load of BS. I guess that makes you a troll now, too. |
I guess I do. Heh.
Not to self: Read the entire thread before posting. 
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killfire
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| Shadow Skill wrote: | | what I smell is someone being over sensitive when he or she has not understood the context of the OP's use of the term bloat. |
yes, i meant it as Elder has so elequently informed me that is called "feature creep", not "bloat". I feel extraodinarily englightened and am so happy that Elder has educated me so.
killfire
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Shadow Skill
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| Lokheed wrote: | | Shadow Skill wrote: | You do need more ram if the gnome/kde menus are visibly lagging when you aren't doing something memory intensive.
Konqueror seems to be preloaded which would explain how it can load way faster than Firefox. [At least with KDE 3.4.0] |
My experience differed. Konqueror was slow as hell to load compared to Nautilus in Gnome. During heavy memory usage (unraring large files) it was unbearable. Preloaded or not, Firefox and all Mozilla programs are slugs full of memory issues. Look at Evolutions load up time compared to Thunderbird. Firefox and Thunderbird need a lot of attention in the memory usage department. Most people need to explain the slow load up times by talking about preloading, but I don't think that covers the meat of the issue. Mozilla seriously has to look at improving their programs and not making excuses because there is no way in hell that Firefox/Thunderbird/Mozilla have to be that slow off the start. |
I think that the general slowness of programs like OO Firefox and other Linux apps speak to a trend of sorts of inefficient code. OO being the most ridiculous of the programs that I can think of, I mean this program takes an eternity to load on Windows unless preloaded and is still way slower than MS Office and Abiword on the same platform! There is no reason for OO to all but require preloading to load in a half decent period of time on a system with 512mb ram and an amd 3200+ its just unacceptable, I'm probably going to just give in and install MS Office since that loads now as opposed to later, and stick with Koffice which loads hella faster than OO in Gentoo, maybe Koffice should be ported to Windows and just forget about the pointless KDE WM Windows port.
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wjholden
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Joined: 01 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Shadow Skill wrote: | | I think that the general slowness of programs like OO Firefox and other Linux apps speak to a trend of sorts of inefficient code. OO being the most ridiculous of the programs that I can think of, I mean this program takes an eternity to load on Windows unless preloaded and is still way slower than MS Office and Abiword on the same platform! |
Mozilla has suffered from some severe memory leaks all along. I still use them, but performance does take a hit from imperfect programming.
OOo is slow because it's probably the only Java application you use. Not all of OOo is Java, but enough of it is Java that performance takes a hit since you're having to load the JVM as well as the OOo application. If more software used Java this wouldn't be as much of a problem.
Why KOffice? I prefer Abiword and Mozilla (Firefox/Thunderbird of course). |
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superstoned
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Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| destuxor wrote: | | Shadow Skill wrote: | | I think that the general slowness of programs like OO Firefox and other Linux apps speak to a trend of sorts of inefficient code. OO being the most ridiculous of the programs that I can think of, I mean this program takes an eternity to load on Windows unless preloaded and is still way slower than MS Office and Abiword on the same platform! |
Mozilla has suffered from some severe memory leaks all along. I still use them, but performance does take a hit from imperfect programming.
OOo is slow because it's probably the only Java application you use. Not all of OOo is Java, but enough of it is Java that performance takes a hit since you're having to load the JVM as well as the OOo application. If more software used Java this wouldn't be as much of a problem.
Why KOffice? I prefer Abiword and Mozilla (Firefox/Thunderbird of course). |
abiword is more mature than Koffice, but Koffice offers a much more integrated environment. I have high expectations of Koffice 2.0 (which, as I hope, will be part of a KDE 4.0 release).
anyway, for me, Koffice is the only choice, as I don't have any gtk libs on my system  |
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Lokheed
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Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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Location: /usr/src/linux
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Shadow Skill wrote: | | I think that the general slowness of programs like OO Firefox and other Linux apps speak to a trend of sorts of inefficient code. OO being the most ridiculous of the programs that I can think of, I mean this program takes an eternity to load on Windows unless preloaded and is still way slower than MS Office and Abiword on the same platform! There is no reason for OO to all but require preloading to load in a half decent period of time on a system with 512mb ram and an amd 3200+ its just unacceptable, I'm probably going to just give in and install MS Office since that loads now as opposed to later, and stick with Koffice which loads hella faster than OO in Gentoo, maybe Koffice should be ported to Windows and just forget about the pointless KDE WM Windows port. |
Bare in mind that OOo and Firefox are not Linux apps, they are cross-platform. Inefficient code? Damn right. I have had the pleasure of seeing a lot of how things are checked into various projects in CVS (GTK+, gnome-vfs, etc.) and they often dont check for sanity, they dont test the milestones (case of GTK+) and dont do what I think should be done when adding code. This is the nature of open source when, I think, they are just happy that someone is working on their project...but then I don't know if closed source (if at all) is any better...not a coder.
Let's talk about OOo: http://www.openoffice.org/FAQs/build_faq.html
How much source code is there?
OpenOffice.org source will have approx. 30,000 source files.
OpenOffice.org will have approx. 9,000,000 lines of code. The majority of the code is C++.
9 million lines of code? Is it any wonder why it's slow, bloated, and ghastly to use? I think that speaks for itself.
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Lokheed
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| destuxor wrote: | | Shadow Skill wrote: | | I think that the general slowness of programs like OO Firefox and other Linux apps speak to a trend of sorts of inefficient code. OO being the most ridiculous of the programs that I can think of, I mean this program takes an eternity to load on Windows unless preloaded and is still way slower than MS Office and Abiword on the same platform! |
Mozilla has suffered from some severe memory leaks all along. I still use them, but performance does take a hit from imperfect programming.
OOo is slow because it's probably the only Java application you use. Not all of OOo is Java, but enough of it is Java that performance takes a hit since you're having to load the JVM as well as the OOo application. If more software used Java this wouldn't be as much of a problem.
Why KOffice? I prefer Abiword and Mozilla (Firefox/Thunderbird of course). |
Thats not true. I have OOo installed but dont have Java. You can see from my post above that most of the code is C++, not Java as well.
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Shadow Skill
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Well Koffice because I do require a complete office suite since my school work may call for the use of spreadsheets word processing and Powerpoint at any time and I don't happen to know of any stand alone options for things like spreadsheets and Powerpoint [OO seems to just render powerpoint slides badly without fail not to mention that navigating through the slides in impress is just laughable compared to how you can do it in MS Powerpoint. Its a shame that the office suite products in Linux seem to fall absolutely flat compared to the latest Microsoft offering, by either being slow or simply not handling MS formats very well thereby diminishing the overall usefulness of the tools.
Why should any office suite depend on Java ever? Java is a programming language that absolutely lends itself to hogging resources there is absolutely no reason for any part of an office suite, I have no idea what the OO coders are thinking with that one.
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superstoned
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Shadow Skill wrote: | Well Koffice because I do require a complete office suite since my school work may call for the use of spreadsheets word processing and Powerpoint at any time and I don't happen to know of any stand alone options for things like spreadsheets and Powerpoint [OO seems to just render powerpoint slides badly without fail not to mention that navigating through the slides in impress is just laughable compared to how you can do it in MS Powerpoint. Its a shame that the office suite products in Linux seem to fall absolutely flat compared to the latest Microsoft offering, by either being slow or simply not handling MS formats very well thereby diminishing the overall usefulness of the tools.
Why should any office suite depend on Java ever? Java is a programming language that absolutely lends itself to hogging resources there is absolutely no reason for any part of an office suite, I have no idea what the OO coders are thinking with that one. |
the OO coders are paid by sun. sun owns (and needs) java. thats why.
and the Free Software world has no good office suite because everyone thinks openoffice is any good. it just plain sucks. it has the features, yes. but its poorly written, not using a decent toolkit but inventing some of its own. everyone should support Koffice or gnomeoffice (altough the latter does not exist, as it is just a few independent apps thrown together).
anyway, I think the KDE hackers will make Koffice rule. they don't seem to need much corporate help to succeed, they always do (notice gnome is mostly written by paid hackers, KDE mostly by volunteers. still, without all the money, KDE happens to have a much more mature and technically advanced framework. one wonders what the benefits of corporate interest in a free software project are...).
but abiword is a fine piece of work, one can't argue against that. |
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Shadow Skill
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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I see what you mean about the general crappiness of OSS office suites, I get the same feeling with the Winamp2 clones and Mplayer and its ultra pathetic and totally crippled gui's. [Learn what on the fly stream switching is Mplayer/Kmplayer coders I mean Jeez who the hell wants to stop his dual audio mkv in order to use a cli switch to change the stream restarting the entire video when everyone else allows some way to do this from the gui without any form of config file hacking?]
The only thing KDE lacks is speed [Gnome still outperforms it 3.4.0 is definetly heading in the right direction with the speed of the WM though, bang up job KDE devs.] and asthetic sense; KDE really looks nasty, no fugly even, KDE needs to be able to look nice and extract itself from its current status as IE shell UI clone that looks even uglier.
But I think that the sucess of KDE as a WM is a testament to the general effectiveness of the Windows shell as a working environment, its very clean and professional while still providing something remotely eye pleasing to many users, that said I really want a WM that incorporates the feature prowess of KDE and the useability and asthetics of Gnome a sort of KFCE if you will; I really like the XFCE UI especially the way you access the root menu and the like and I do truly appreciate that KDE does allow you to achieve this sort of effect but I think KDE could really use a K-light like XFCE in relation to Gnome.
Gnome needs to take a serious look at how KDE handles things like the mounting of HDD's and the handling of the file manager [Konqueror is just plain better than nautilus period.] and things like actual menu editing etc.
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superstoned
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Shadow Skill wrote: | | Gnome needs to take a serious look at how KDE handles things like the mounting of HDD's and the handling of the file manager [Konqueror is just plain better than nautilus period.] and things like actual menu editing etc. |
gnome needs to change their whole infrastructure, i guess
I think turning KDE into gnome would be much easier than turning gnome into KDE. gnome's advantages are almost only in the UI (which imho isn't that good either, some things are, but many are just dumbing-down-things).
anyway, for me KDE is way faster than gnome, at least Kubuntu kicks the latest ubuntu - pretty much a fair contest I guess. |
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Shadow Skill
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 12:06 am Post subject: |
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If you have ram on 256 kubuntu crawls bad, that is KDE's problem it can't run well on systems without 512mb ram anything less and it just crawls like a bastard. Gnome on the other hand remains somewhat useable, not even XP's gui will crawl on 256 ram like KDE will...
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Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.
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wjholden
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Joined: 01 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| Shadow Skill wrote: | | If you have ram on 256 kubuntu crawls bad, that is KDE's problem it can't run well on systems without 512mb ram anything less and it just crawls like a bastard. Gnome on the other hand remains somewhat useable, not even XP's gui will crawl on 256 ram like KDE will... |
That's bullshit and you know it. KDE ran great on my machine back when I only had 256 MBs of RAM. Ironically, a couple months after upgrading RAM I moved to Fluxbox |
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gentoo_lan
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| destuxor wrote: | | Shadow Skill wrote: | | If you have ram on 256 kubuntu crawls bad, that is KDE's problem it can't run well on systems without 512mb ram anything less and it just crawls like a bastard. Gnome on the other hand remains somewhat useable, not even XP's gui will crawl on 256 ram like KDE will... |
That's bullshit and you know it. KDE ran great on my machine back when I only had 256 MBs of RAM. Ironically, a couple months after upgrading RAM I moved to Fluxbox |
I agree that is total crap. Windblows would get toasted at 256mb of ram compared to KDE. |
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Lokheed
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| Shadow Skill wrote: | | I see what you mean about the general crappiness of OSS office suites, I get the same feeling with the Winamp2 clones and Mplayer and its ultra pathetic and totally crippled gui's. [Learn what on the fly stream switching is Mplayer/Kmplayer coders I mean Jeez who the hell wants to stop his dual audio mkv in order to use a cli switch to change the stream restarting the entire video when everyone else allows some way to do this from the gui without any form of config file hacking? |
The new Mplayer supports switching audio streams on the fly now. It was supposedly the number 1 most wanted feature, and it works perfectly and its about damn time
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Shadow Skill
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Since when I haven't noticed such an improvement, has this new version been released yet and is there an amd64 build?
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Shadow Skill
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 9:47 am Post subject: |
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How is it bullshit when the 3.4 beta crawls on my p4 laptop with 256mb ram and Windows XP does not, know what and whom you are talking to before you open your mouths, thank you.
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gentoo_lan
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Shadow Skill wrote: | | How is it bullshit when the 3.4 beta crawls on my p4 laptop with 256mb ram and Windows XP does not, know what and whom you are talking to before you open your mouths, thank you. |
Well you obviously don't know the rules of the forum. That is considered a personal attack and isn't warranted. If it happens again I will be sure to tell an admin. Now for the KDE remark, I still think you are wrong because now for KDE you can use the split ebuilds to reduce the excess from KDE and make it far less bloated than a typical Windblows XP install. |
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wjholden
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Shadow Skill wrote: | | How is it bullshit when the 3.4 beta crawls on my p4 laptop with 256mb ram and Windows XP does not, know what and whom you are talking to before you open your mouths, thank you. |
I'm not sure why you didn't have much luck with KDE 3.4. The first thing I'd be looking into would be to run it and leave a terminal open with "top" to see what's slowing the system down. I'd be quick to look in /etc/rc.conf and make sure everything is correct in there. I also wonder that all your environment variables have been properly set to the correct version of KDE and that you're not running ~x86 on anything. I'd also be interested in your make.conf if you were actively looking for a solution.
And of course, there really could be bugs brought out by something you've got or done. If you believe you have discovered a bug turn on debugging support and see what happens.
I believe you're the only person that I've heard of who didn't find KDE 3.4 faster than previous versions. |
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Shadow Skill
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| destuxor wrote: | | Shadow Skill wrote: | | How is it bullshit when the 3.4 beta crawls on my p4 laptop with 256mb ram and Windows XP does not, know what and whom you are talking to before you open your mouths, thank you. |
I'm not sure why you didn't have much luck with KDE 3.4. The first thing I'd be looking into would be to run it and leave a terminal open with "top" to see what's slowing the system down. I'd be quick to look in /etc/rc.conf and make sure everything is correct in there. I also wonder that all your environment variables have been properly set to the correct version of KDE and that you're not running ~x86 on anything. I'd also be interested in your make.conf if you were actively looking for a solution.
And of course, there really could be bugs brought out by something you've got or done. If you believe you have discovered a bug turn on debugging support and see what happens.
I believe you're the only person that I've heard of who didn't find KDE 3.4 faster than previous versions. |
OMG People who don't read and then tell someone else that what they have said is BS all I said was that KDE itself requires quite a bit of ram to really function decently inspite of the overall speed increase of KDE 3.4 when plaaced next to the latest version of Gnome.
And Gentoo_lan since you clearly have not read the things I have said in this thread my previous response to you still stands, learn to read and understand what someone is actually saying before you go screaming that what the person is saying is bullshit. I never even mentioned the state of 256mb ram with Gentoo I clearly stated Kubuntu [Ubuntu bleeding edge KDE desktop variant.] was the OS I used, it wasn't even on the machine I'm typing this on right now, it was on my Laptop which is a p4 M 1.8ghz [I set it to 2ghz which is semi-decent.] with 256mb ram that Kubuntu crawls on when compared to Gnome 3.20 same is true with the FC4 test releases which include Gnome 2.10 and KDE 3.4 [and the FC versions run slower than either of the Ubuntu versions mind you and Gnome still out performs KDE on that machine by leaps and bounds.]
This machine is running ~amd64 [Only because so many useful things are arch and it got annoying manually unmasking them and their dependencies, everything seems to work though now that I understand the way Gentoo works better after about a month or two.] and has a socket 939 3200+ with 512mb ram clocked at 266mhz. [I'm planning on getting dual 512's so I can run the system in dual channel mode and make it even faster. At that time I would have a gig and a half of ram..oh the joy of such a beast...] KDE runs very well and is almost equal to Gnome in terms of log in speed but at this point the performance difference is really negligible. But then again look at my cpu and the amount of ram I have, I wouldn't expect anything less unless I was talking about a java app that would suck up all the ram anyway.
All of the configurations for Kubuntu and Ubuntu and FC4 were left unchanged so it was most likely the WM's themselves. [and the fact that those distro's have some useless processes being loaded.]
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