GPF - Gentoo Problem Found

wiktorw · n00b Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 39 Location: Lodz, Poland

Hello all,

I started gentooing with Gentoo 2004.1/x86 release, back in April 2004. So this makes exactly a year. Having said that I must admit that I am amazed by this distro. And somewhat disappointed. I learned A LOT during this year. I can repair a lot of things. I can configure a lot of things. Kernel configuration, compilation and installation is a breeze. Flags, masking / unmasking, alsa sound, UTF-8, gensplash, multilib. Forums and bugs reporting. Been there, done that. Yet, I am disappointed. Gentoo, in this state as it is now, is not for me (sigh). Damn, I like it! Very much! But it's not for me.
And why?

If Linux (as a process, or the phenomenon) is a moving target, then Gentoo is a running target. It is hard to keep up the pace. To cut the long story short: I cannot get my job done with Gentoo. I know there are lots of people happy with it, running it on their desktop. But for me it's not the case. The syndrom I have on my mind is twofold: "too much change" and "instability". These are the biggest Gentoo problems right now.

I like changes. I adapt and learn quickly. But for Gentoo it's an overkill. I cannot get my job done. I have enough being a gamma tester for every single package that breaks or fails to compile. Even on "x86" and "amd64" which are supposed to be synonyms of stability. They are not. The problem started after drobbins left Gentoo. And you should better know who I am talking about. Without such distinct leader, the Gentoo project started to stumble. Too much change, too small testing, and no clear vision of where the project is going to.

Gentoo veterans should smile at this point. "A poor gentooist with only one year of experience! You haven't seen a lot of things in Gentoo yet!" I know that and I agree. And I'm affraid I would not have the opportunity to do so. This is too much stressful fighting with OS after getting it up and running. I know how to reach the point when it works perfectly and is configured properly. But then it should be updated. And now the trouble begins.

During the last year I was pushed into upgrading the GNU compiler twice, without warning. Similar thing with glibc. My multilib environment just vanished after another update (so no more 32-bit openoffice-bin anymore on my brand-new amd64 system...). Yes, I was always doing "emerge -puv world" before accepting anything. But in my trustfulness I was hoping that Gentoo developers know better what to upgrade and when.
Soon it turned out this was not always the case.

Example:

* Evening #1: Syncing the portage tree. Wow, an update of gcc. It's going to be better/faster/everything. Let's do it!
(a night was spent for compilation)
* Some another day: what the heck is with that computer again? I've just upgraded the compiler to the newest version! Why does it want to use bits of an old, non-existing version? (gcc-config, revdep-rebuild introduced : several evenings spent for reparations, doing it for the first time)

* Evening #2: Wow, a KDE update! (checking the screenshots on kde.org) Impressive! Let's do it!
(a night was spent for compilation)
(a bug discovered in the morning) (half of a day spent for just getting STABLE packages to compile and merge smoothly)
* KDE is running: Do I really have to delete all the ~/.kde, ~/.local, etc. directories? Should my configuration really do to /dev/null?
(for the sake of having a better feeling that all KDE settings are like out-of-the-box, remove the directories : several days of reconfiguring everything)

* Evening #3: Wow, a security update for glibc. I know I SHOULD do it. (checking emerge -puv world) Hmmm. What is this "(-multilib)" doing there? (checking /etc/make.conf) Hmmm. I'm sure I have this USE="multilib" enabled. Ok, anyway. I've just found this ultra-cool userlocales flag. It's going to be fine. Let's go!
(a night spent for compilation)
* Another day: WTF is wrong again! A sandbox environment is not working? Why is sandbox broken? A multilib issue? I just did a profile upgrade, just as portage suggested! (checking forums, learning a sad triuth) Ok, let's fix it. Again.
(two weeks spent with tinkering [no real job done meanwhile], gave up and reinstalled Gentoo on a spare partition)

* Evening #4: Hey, a KDE 3.4.0 is here! Should I really update? (considering the consequences, and reconsidering again). What does it mean it's masked? (reading about unmasking, creating /etc/portage/package.unmask and package.keywords) Now, let's give it a go!
* 10 hours later: [hehe, my machine has been heavily upgraded in order to compile faster

] A nice kdm! A clobbered KMenu... And why is kcontrol missing?

* Evening #5: A Midnight Commander security update! I HAVE TO do it!
* Several minutes later: why is <Ctrl+O> NOT restoring the screen of the "under" shell?
(messing with "ncurses" / "slang" USE flags, finally putting "slang" in USE flags for good and "app-misc/mc -ncurses" in /etc/portage/package.use -- hey! I've found another portage file!)

... and so on, and so forth.

During this last year I was ripping my hair out of my head sometimes. I think I have seen enough. I do not really need to concentrate on the operating system itself. I need to WORK. My family needs money to live. That's sad, but it's true in the world we live in. I'm affraid I will have to stop using Gentoo soon. It should stabilize first. To be stable enough to be better suited for the normal, average desktop use. Where I don't have to FIGHT in order to do my job. Knowing that there are big changes ahead again (gcc 4.0, KDE 4.0, reiserfs4 in stable kernel, God only knows what else), I don't feel to good right now.

Once again - I think I fell in love (?) in Gentoo. It's been a very interesting ride. But I have to stop. Or Gentoo should slow down a bit. Think about it: an experienced user, with MSc degree in computer science, C/C++/Delphi/Java/C#/bash programmer, LEAVES Gentoo after a big bucket of frustration. That's sad, but that's how it is.

I know already I will be back in several months. I'll download a stage1 and do bootstrap again. But it better should work flawlessly from beginning to end. I know it's possible. At least I hope so.

Have a good time all the gentooers! I wish you the very best. Peace,
Wiktor Wandachowicz
_________________
Change is the only constant in the universe.
Heraclitus

mcspiff · Tux's lil' helper Joined: 24 Oct 2004 Posts: 109

ciaranm · Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:02 pm Post subject:

Well, if you want obsolete software, there's always Debian.

wiktorw · n00b Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 39 Location: Lodz, Poland

ciaranm · Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:41 pm Post subject:

wiktorw · n00b Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 39 Location: Lodz, Poland

pjp · Administrator Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20067

I have yet to understand why people have problems administering their systems. If you use masked packages, don't complain. I've been running on Gentoo for several years, and have had no consistent problems with maintenance. If Gentoo takes YOU too long, I wonder what it is YOU are doing to cause it. I spend no longer than I want to 99.99999999% of the time.

wiktorw · n00b Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 39 Location: Lodz, Poland

First of all, sorry for posting so much to the same thread.

virtual · Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:05 pm Post subject:

I am always suprised when people say that Gentoo is time consuming to administrate. The few (now 3) errors that have been caused by Gentoo have been quikly dealt with, these have only been minor annoyances. But then again I clearly distinguish between my errors and Gentoo's when I experiment with gcc and other packages I only blame myself if something goes wrong. I don't even expect packages to work until they are marked stable, but on many occasions they do and on many they don't. I then re-emerge the older package.

I understand your frustration with the speed of change but this is normal in the computer industri be it hardware or software, I also sometimes wish things would slow down but they won't. You do not have to emerge the latest and greatest and keep your pc's up to date every day, you can set your own pace and it's wise to do so because you can plan ahead and give yourself time to deal with any error that may come along and also revert to the older version you were happily using. Remeber when and what you update is your choice, but again I also get that "I must have it feeling" when I see the version number of a package is greater than the one I have (even when I don't know why).
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The roots of education are bitter but it's fruit is sweet.

Given M. Sur · Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:36 pm Post subject:

Q-collective · Advocate Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 2071

I hear a lot of people complaining about problems on AMD64, this is exactly the reason I still haven't bought one...
About Gentoo being too unstable on occasions, I agree. I really think GLEP 19 should be implemented.

mcspiff · Tux's lil' helper Joined: 24 Oct 2004 Posts: 109

Decibels · Veteran Joined: 16 Aug 2002 Posts: 1623 Location: U.S.A.

ciaranm · Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:47 pm Post subject:

Hey, this is Gentoo. You can mix and match. We don't make you stick to one branch or sit around for a month waiting for something to be confirmed stable. If you want no choice, downgrade to Debian.

orlanz · n00b Joined: 25 May 2003 Posts: 26

<intro>
I am also a kind of programmer. Nothing big. Tried multiple distos. Consider Gentoo a much better fit than anything currently offered. (Can't actually say that, haven't had the need to try anything else out and the last other distros I have used are like 2-3 major versions ago). Been using Gentoo for a while, haven't learned too much about it. I just learn what I need to when I need to.
</intro>

Anyway, lets see your complaint...

1) GCC. Ok, I also have had problems with the last two gcc upgrades, and I am a little peeved at it. I have masked gcc so I have full control over future upgrading. But the problem isn't with Gentoo, it is with the kde and other programmers that use static libraries and such. I doubt Gentoo maintainers can do much about it.

2) Advice... Don't upgrade anything based on screenshots. I never deleted the directories. Just upgraded and that is it. Although I wish it was easier to uninstall the previous versions. But I think the complexity of uninstalling the older versions is due to the arch design of KDE.

3) Use "+multilib" I believe it should force it then... Don't remember well. USE flags are a very powerful way to customize, but require a bit of knowledge. Gentoo chose not to go the path of other distros that do what they feel is best and instead put that power in the hand of the user. With that power, comes great responsibility :roll:

. Unfortunately, the dev team will need to make some default choices, but I think they try to choose the ones that inconvinence the least number of users.

4) I feel for ya, but any major upgrade has its "stability risk"-to-"needed feature" ratio. And it is very unfavorable for masked packages. Gentoo can't do much more about this than it already does.

5) <combine #3 & #4 but think security :wink:

>

My suggestions to you:
-don't upgrade to ~ unless you HAVE to.
-any core upgrades like glibc and gcc... check the forums first. Infact, I mask them and do them manually (through emerge)!
-read through the docs

I know, you just want to get your "work" done, but the fact is all OSs need some form of caretaking. Gentoo is no exception. IMO, it has a higher initial investment than most, but the maintainence is a lot less. I have had mine up and running for over 200 days (power outages! :evil:

). For the other distros, the maintainence was so high, I usually just reinstalled from scratch for major problems as that was less work! I only reinstalled Gentoo once as I messed up a LOT of binaries while trying to do experimental clustering and virtual servers over multiple arch!

Gentoo isn't perfect. It fills an itch that many want scratched. It isn't like the other distros, and it is purposely trying not to be. If they fit your need better, use them! Not trying to brush you off, just that I don't think Gentoo can do many of the things the other distros do while maintaining the majority of its advantages... they are mutually exclusive.

---------------------------- End --------------------------------

Here is a feature I wish portage had. It may solve some of your problems too.

Lets call it... ummm, submitter opinions

If this already exists, I am a moron, plz pardon me and kick me in the right direction.
-There are multiple categories in an opinions part of a package like features, security, difficulty, and overall for each supported arch.
-Each category can be rated 1-5 or even 1-3. 5 being highest and 0 being the default "N/R".

So when a new upgrade comes out, the submitter can include their opinions for each category for each arch.
-A 5 for security means this is a serious upgrade and the submitter is saying it must be done (like remote exploit!)
-A 5 for features means the submitter thinks the additional features are a must have.
-A 5 for difficulty means, all my old configs go bye bye and I need to recreate new ones, while a 1 means portage takes care of everything.
-And an overall for the submitter's opinion on if the average user should upgrade.

Now, me being a simple user, can do commands like
emerge -puD --overall>=4 world --------------------- only recommended upgrades
emerge -puD --security=5 --difficulty<=2 world --- automated highly critical ones.

I know, it complicates things and puts more responsibility on submitters, but it adds more customization and flexability to the end user's setup. It could even replace current masking. I wanted to do this on my own, but my programming skills are no where near enough. Maybe I will look harder at it in the summer when I got more time.

Q-collective · Advocate Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 2071

Given M. Sur · Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:48 am Post subject:

pablo_supertux · Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:00 am Post subject:

I just cannot understand, why people do have a lot of problem with gentoo maintenance.

I came to gentoo at Jan. 2004, so I cannot tell, that I know everything about Gentoo. But I run "emerge --sync && emerge -uvaD world" once a day for a year and in this time I got no more than 3 or 4 several errors (well the problem from gcc 3.3.4 --> 3.3.5 wasn't funny, but I reparied in 5 minutes).

I agree with you when you (@wiktorw) talk about revdep-rebuild, I had to run this more than 3 or 4 times in a year and sometimes it takes a lot of time, but I think there are some kind of problems like any normal problem that all distributions have. So I live with that and I knwo that sometimes I have to spend my time on it, after that I am really happy, that my system continuus working, and that's the point.
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mcspiff · Tux's lil' helper Joined: 24 Oct 2004 Posts: 109

pjp · Administrator Joined: 16 Apr 2002 Posts: 20067

ecoffey · Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:06 am Post subject: Re: Lets take a look....

fuji · Tux's lil' helper Joined: 26 Apr 2002 Posts: 111

I wonder why people feel the need to update everything daily, and then complain that gentoo moves too fast or is unstable. System moves faster than I would like, but it's nothing too bad since I can usually go at least 3 months without touching it.

The only times I ever sync is when KDE or -ck comes out with a new release or a security update happens.... other than that, I don't emerge sync that often. I've found that the "Gentoo Problem" that most users are afflicted by is the perceived notion that `emerge sync && emerge -Duv world` daily is a good thing.
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Came for the hype, stayed for Portage.

Shadow Skill · Veteran Joined: 04 Dec 2004 Posts: 1023

Well thats if you dont want to have some rather ridiculous compile time [depending on what you installed and how fast your machine is.] letting updates pile up could end up being a not so good situation really. Its not illogical at all to update when updates are released mind you.
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Ware wa mutekinari.
Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.

"First there was nothing, so the lord gave us light. There was still nothing, but at least you could see it."

zxiiro · Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:22 am Post subject:

p-hi · n00b Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 61 Location: Canada

When I see my system is stable enough, I dont update it anymore. Except for new featurest that I _need_ or for bug fix that I _need_. If I don't think I need an update, why bother.

Using gentoo does not force you to update or sync your box daily, just update when you need it. If for example, a new glibc is released as stable, then I'd consider the cost of updating it (compile time, broken things need fixing, etc..) with the gain. If the gain is unclear or more than the cost, then don't update it. I usually just insert them in /etc/portage/package.mask to prevent updating.

So, if one doesn't have the time and need to update, then just don't do it. If getting your work done is your first priority, don't run emerge -vuD world to update everything.

If one day, you have the time to mess with the OS, then you can update the whole system and fix things that breaks.