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gen2user
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Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 4
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 Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 1:07 am Post subject: |
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Nightmorph said:
| Quote: | | Better yet, why not just burn the Jackass! tarball and related docs from the Jackass! CD to a CD of your own (assuming you have two CD drives) and boot using a recent Knoppix LiveCD, one with a 2.6 kernel? Though this is more of an unsupported method, it should work perfectly well, as all you have to do is copy over the tarball to the appropriate Gentoo directory from inside the Knoppix environment. I know for a fact that the Knoppix and Gnoppix (KDE and Gnome environments, respectively) LiveCDs have MegaRaid and other RAID modules; booting the Knoppix CD in "expert" mode gives the option of loading those modules, if they aren't autodetected. |
Thanks nightmorph I appreciate the answer. I was curious if there was any reason I couldnt do what you suggest. I think I will use the 2004.3 disk I used to do the original install. Once again thanks for your help!! |
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96140
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| artificio wrote: | | So using Jackass! has nothing to do with my error (i.e. using GCC 3.4.3 has no effect on binutils)? Do the CFLAGS just not matter for binutils as well? I'm not trying to pester, I'm just confused as to how binutils can't be effecting by using Jackass!. |
Certainly it does, but it's really more of a general gcc 3.4.3 issue. The binutils provided by Jackass! is x86, while gcc is ~x86. While it shouldn't matter that you're using "testing" gcc, if you're using it in conjunction with another compiler (like ifc) to try to get binutils, that might cause some issues, unless I just haven't understood you properly.
This just sounds " problems with gcc 3.4.3 and binutils. It really comes down to the general compiler itself, not something Jackass!-specific. Check the forums for gcc 3.4.3 & binutils errors if you really want to start nailing down the exact nature of your troubles. Plus, Bugzilla is always good for seeing if there's anything specific about gcc 3.4.3 that's causing compiling difficulties.
Extensive testing has never revealed any problems compiling the stable binutils with the ~x86 gcc for me, at least, nor even when compiling with the older x86 versions of gcc.
I'd also suggest that on your specific thread for this issue you post the output of "emerge info"; that's probably the best starting point for diagnosing your troubles.
Last edited by 96140 on Mon May 23, 2005 1:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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96140
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| gen2user wrote: | Nightmorph said:
| Quote: | | Better yet, why not just burn the Jackass! tarball and related docs from the Jackass! CD to a CD of your own (assuming you have two CD drives) and boot using a recent Knoppix LiveCD, one with a 2.6 kernel? Though this is more of an unsupported method, it should work perfectly well, as all you have to do is copy over the tarball to the appropriate Gentoo directory from inside the Knoppix environment. I know for a fact that the Knoppix and Gnoppix (KDE and Gnome environments, respectively) LiveCDs have MegaRaid and other RAID modules; booting the Knoppix CD in "expert" mode gives the option of loading those modules, if they aren't autodetected. |
Thanks nightmorph I appreciate the answer. I was curious if there was any reason I couldnt do what you suggest. I think I will use the 2004.3 disk I used to do the original install. Once again thanks for your help!! |
EEEGAAD, no! Do not use the 2004.3 LiveCD!!!!
It's completely incompatible. Things will go very, very badly for you if you attempt to. Sorry, but you need to use something with a better 2.6 kernel and more compatibility. Check earlier in this thread or on the Jackass! release announcements thread; several users have successfully used Knoppix to install Jackass!
Use of the 2004.3 LiveCD is strictly forbidden. Bad medicine. Use either a 2005.0 LiveCD or a compatible Knoppix or other recent distro LiveCD. |
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gen2user
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Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| I guess I will have to use knoppix then. The 2005 gentoo cd doesnt support my raid card either. I guess I need to slow down a bit. I wanted to avoid a 650 meg download. Thanks for the help nightmorph!! |
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96140
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| gen2user wrote: | | I guess I will have to use knoppix then. The 2005 gentoo cd doesnt support my raid card either. I guess I need to slow down a bit. I wanted to avoid a 650 meg download. Thanks for the help nightmorph!! |
You're welcome! Enjoy your new Jackass system, too....after the lengthy Knoppix download. Might I suggest copious amounts of caffeine in the interim? If nothing else, caffeine certainly helps the actual Jackass! install fly by. |
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gen2user
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Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 1:34 am Post subject: |
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| I will say this. I installed Jackass on a dual p2 450 with 384 ram (I use it as a web server) and it runs great. I have used almost all of the popular distros except debian and I have never had a system run like Jackass does. My laptop only has 128 meg of ram and even tho it thrashes in swap alot it still runs great (better than Mandrake 10.1). Gentoo + Jackass = Linux done right. |
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Sith_Happens
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Joined: 15 Dec 2004
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Location: The University of Maryland at College Park
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| gen2user wrote: | | I will say this. I installed Jackass on a dual p2 450 with 384 ram (I use it as a web server) and it runs great. I have used almost all of the popular distros except debian and I have never had a system run like Jackass does. My laptop only has 128 meg of ram and even tho it thrashes in swap alot it still runs great (better than Mandrake 10.1). Gentoo + Jackass = Linux done right. |
I'm glad I saw that last line where you acknowlege gentoo. We are glad that Jackass made your install easier and gave you a fast system, but keep in mind you are running a gentoo system. Once your done the install, your running Gentoo with the Jackass! toolkit, but Gentoo none the less.
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"That question was less stupid; though you asked it in a profoundly stupid way."
I'm the brains behind Jackass! | Tutorials: Shorewall |
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Riklaunim
Apprentice
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 286
Location: Poland
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| If you need a small liveCD try SLAX (on slackware) or SAM (on mandriva). |
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ccutler
n00b
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 3:54 pm Post subject: site down? |
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| is the jackass download site down? I am unable to access it. |
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UniBox
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Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 16
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: site down? |
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| ccutler wrote: | | is the jackass download site down? I am unable to access it. |
Noticed it to! Damn, I took some day's off to install it. Nah not realy, getting married this week ... but did reserve some time for jackass  |
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Bob P
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Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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Location: Jackass! Development Labs
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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yes, the server was down for about 12 hours. sorry 'bout that. Murphy's Law being what it is, this happened while I was out of town.  everything is fine now. 
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Bob P
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Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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Location: Jackass! Development Labs
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Riklaunim wrote: | | If you need a small liveCD try SLAX (on slackware) or SAM (on mandriva). |
Please not that the use of any Install CD medium other than the Gentoo 2005.0 Install CD or the Jackass 2005.0 Install CD is NOT RECOMMENDED. If you use other Install CDs, you need to understand that they are not supported.
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Sith_Happens
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Joined: 15 Dec 2004
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Location: The University of Maryland at College Park
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Riklaunim wrote: | | If you need a small liveCD try SLAX (on slackware) or SAM (on mandriva). |
Jackass is small enough to fit on a business card cd-r. Besides you can't compare the Jackass! install cd and the Slax LiveCD. They are two different bootable iso's with two very different purposes.
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Bob P
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Location: Jackass! Development Labs
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Sith_Happens wrote: | | gen2user wrote: | | I will say this. I installed Jackass on a dual p2 450 with 384 ram (I use it as a web server) and it runs great. I have used almost all of the popular distros except debian and I have never had a system run like Jackass does. My laptop only has 128 meg of ram and even tho it thrashes in swap alot it still runs great (better than Mandrake 10.1). Gentoo + Jackass = Linux done right. |
I'm glad I saw that last line where you acknowlege gentoo. We are glad that Jackass made your install easier and gave you a fast system, but keep in mind you are running a gentoo system. Once your done the install, your running Gentoo with the Jackass! toolkit, but Gentoo none the less. |
I would not hesitate to go one step further -- Gentoo is definitely the base for The Jackass! Toolkit, and everything that you like about The Jackass! Toolkit is something that was ultimately derived directly from Gentoo. But I like to think that there are some significant design differences between Jackass! 2005.0 and Gentoo 2005.0, that allow Jackass! to take Gentoo to a higher plateau.
My objective in designing The Jackass! Toolkit was to use it as an example of how FAST AND RELIABLE Gentoo can be when using a testing branch GCC 3.4.3 and Glibc toolkit with Native Posix Threading Library support. This was a direct extension of my "master plan" that started with the Stage 1/3 Installation Guides.
in my experience GCC 3.4.3 is rock-solid and stable when it is built properly-- even when it employed my favorite combination of CFLAGS for x86 that many Gentoo Developers dismissed as "insane." My experience with the Stage 1/3 Guides was that the only time that it was unstable was when it was built improperly. Suffice it to say that I was a bit disappointed to see that GCC 3.4.3 didn't make it into the 2005.0 release of Gentoo -- with or without my "insane" set of CFLAGS.
My personal belief was that Gentoo 2005.0 could have (and should have) used GCC 3.4.3 and NPTL support, and that these enhancements were reliable enough and added enough performance that they could be included in a default installation package. Others had their doubts, though, and that was understandable.
Unfortunately, if was difficult for me to prove the RELIABILITY and PERFORMANCE hypothesis when it required that users of unknown skill levels would be performing the Stage 1/3 installs that tested the hypothesis. The problem -- as the Stage 1/3 Install threads have shown -- is that even when detailed instructions are provided, many users still encounter problems properly building the toolkit. It may be because some users don't have the sophistication and experience with Gentoo to accomplish the toolkit rebuild, which is an admittedly arduous and complicated process. It may also be that because the rebuild takes so long, people let their attention lapse and make mistakes. Who knows.
Even so, the Stage 1/3 threads show us that about 80,000 people have completed Stage 1/3 installs to date. Based on the frequency of problems reported in the support thread -- which all seem to be attributable to user error -- it is obvious that the Stage 1/3 method works. So we built Jackass! to eliminate the remaining variables that caused the Stage 1/3 Installs to fail -- user misconfiguration issues -- and to make my hypothesis easier to test. Jackass! was designed as the vehicle to test this hypothesis. It didn't seem fair to comare the complicated process of a toolkit rebuild do the simple process of unpacking a Gentoo Stage 3 tarball. By creating a group of Jackass! Stage 3 tarballs that behaved similarly to Gentoo Stage 3 tarballs, we could eliminate the toolkit building variable from the experiment, and compare apples to apples, so to speak.
I have been tracking the observed error rate (errors in the support threads per number of installs performed) for both the Stage 1/3 Install and for a Jackass! Install. So far, it seems that the error rate is lower for Jackass! than it was for the Stage 1/3 Install. Granted, we have about 80,000 Stage 1/3 installs over the past few months and only a few thousand Jackass! installs over the past 2 weeks. Even so this preliminary data suggests that the fault-tolerance added to the design of Jackass! works the way it was intended to work, and that the final data may indeed confirm the Performance and Reliability hypothesis. the preliminary numbers seem to suggest that maybe my ideas weren't so "insane" after all. 
Keeping all of this in perspective, a few fairly significant differences exist between the basic Gentoo 2005.0 for x86 and the Jackass! Toolkit for x86. Among them:
1. GCC 3.4.3 vs. GCC 3.3.5
2. NPTL + linuxthreads vs. linuxthreads alone
3. Bob's "insane" CFLAGS vs. "-O2 -fomit-frame-pointer -pipe"
yes, Jackass! is based on Gentoo and Jackass! owes its heritage to Gentoo. but there's a pretty significant conceptual difference in design philosophy between The Jackass! Toolkit and the standard Gentoo toolkit. I think that saying something like "Jackass! is just Gentoo" is true -- Jackass! was envisioned as an enhancement to Gentoo and was never intended to be its own distro or a sub-distro -- but a statement like that doesn't give enough credit to Jackass! for the quantum leap forward over plain-vanilla Gentoo that it is. I like to think of Jackass! as the "Be all that you can be" flavor of Gentoo. personally, i'm hoping that the speed, the stability and the popularity of the Jackass! toolkit will prove that these methods are worthy of being incorporated into the Gentoo philosophy and that the reliability and performance gap that presently exists between the standard Gentoo 2005.0 x86 toolkit and the Jackass! 2005.0 x86 toolkit will close.
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flipnode
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Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 172
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: Jackass(Toolkity Build) + Genoo = FAST!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Let me just say!
Jackass(Toolkit Build) + Gentoo = FAST!!!!!!!!!!!
I have a two computer systems: a laptop running a p4 with an ati 7500 Mobility 16mb and an old Pentium -mmx with only 64mb of ram.
Let me first start by saying that in the past, I was having gaming performance issue with my laptop. I could play quake3, but it just didn't run like windows handled it. The game was a bit laggy and just wasn't fun to play.
After installing Jackass(Toolkit)/Gentoo, I noticed a very big difference in the speed of the system. Everything was faster from, Emerge searches to compile times. I then installed quake3 from portage once again to test the performance gain of my graphics capabilities. I have to say that I can put quake3 on full everything and there is no lag and it just flyss!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am in heaven!!! Gentoo was the sh*t before, but now.. , it is even more so.
Man.. my Pentium-mmx system just runs faster then it did. What do you expect, with 64mb of ram. I'm using it as a file and web server; obviously, not production! 
I do have only one issue with the Jackass installation manual. During the configuration of the hostname and domain name, it gives you the option of using the depreciated way of setting or the new way. I used the new way, except it complains about the hostname not being set and wanting the old way to be set. What's the deal? Also, where can you go to find out when they make changes like this, b/c I didn't even know it was being depreciated.
Gotta love! Gentoo / Jackass(Toolkit)
On an added note: I think that part of my performance gain was the use of
Bob's "insane" CFLAGS. So, thanks man!
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Triple5
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Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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Location: NYC, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| You folks have an irc channel? |
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Sith_Happens
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Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 1807
Location: The University of Maryland at College Park
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Triple5 wrote: | | You folks have an irc channel? |
Sorry, none of us use IRC, so an IRC channel for Jackass! would not be very useful. 
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"That question was less stupid; though you asked it in a profoundly stupid way."
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Bob P
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Joined: 20 Oct 2004
Posts: 3355
Location: Jackass! Development Labs
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Sith_Happens wrote: | | Triple5 wrote: | | You folks have an irc channel? |
Sorry, none of us use IRC, so an IRC channel for Jackass! would not be very useful. |
just to play the hard-ass for a minute -- the standard among the major Linux distros is that the software is free and you have to pay for support. in keeping with the Gentoo philosophy, we're going one step farther then the rest of the linux world, and we're offering our spare time -- when we have it --to provide free support in this thread.
even though IRC support would be nice, the Jackass! teams are comprised by a very small group of people. its just not logistically feasible to maintain any sort of 24/7 support service via IRC. the demands that this would place on a very limited number of people are so demanding that if it were ever to happen, people in need of live support should expect to pay for it. based on the 10,000:1 ratio of people who use Jackass! to those who support it with a modest donation, i can't imagine that it could ever be worth the trouble to even contemplate offering live support.
another problem that works against the IRC idea is that although IRC is very efficient for the person in need of support (ie: instant gratification), its termendously inefficient for the people providing support (ie: the time spent answering a question only benefits one person, and there is no permanent record of the problem/solution that other users may use for reference).
with that in mind, i think that the people who are using Jackass! who are looking for a Jackass!-specific IRC channel fail to realize that Jackass! is nothing more than a highly tricked-out version of Gentoo. if you want IRC support for a GCC 3.4.3-related issue, then go to the Gentoo IRC channel and seek answers to your GCC 3.4.3-specific questions there. 
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Last edited by Bob P on Wed May 25, 2005 6:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob P
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Posts: 3355
Location: Jackass! Development Labs
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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HUMAN NATURE 101: Somebody always tries to find a Loophole
a few days ago i posted a message asking people to put all of their support requests in this thread, rather than sending me Personal Messages asking for support:
| Bob P wrote: | Please Note:
The Jackass! Project and the Stage 1/3 Installation Method for Gentoo 2005.0 have their own support threads. My Personal Message box should NOT be used to solicit support for either of these projects.
Please post all Jackass! support requests to the Jackass! Support Group.
Please post all Stage 1/3 support requests to the Stage 1/3 Support Thread.
Please note that I will not repond to ANY Personal Messages requesting support for the Stage 1 on 3 Installation Guide or for the Jackass! Project . All Personal Messages sent to me that contain personalized support requests will be deleted without a reply.
Please post ALL support requests to the Official Support Threads, where everyone can benefit from the answers! |
interestingly, quite a few people seem to have decided that there was a loophole in this request -- namely that i didn't say not to send me emails requesting support. because of this, my email address is no longer being made available on the forum.
Just to make the policy clear:
THE SUPPORT TEAM WILL RESPOND TO REQUESTS FOR SUPPORT THAT ARE POSTED TO THIS THREAD.
THE SUPPORT TEAM WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANY EMAILS OR PERSONAL MESSAGES REQUESTING SUPPORT.
IF YOU WANT SUPPORT, THEN POST YOUR REQUEST HERE. BY POSTING YOUR SUPPORT REQUEST HERE, EVERYONE CAN BENEFIT FROM THE TIME THAT WE TAKE TO PROVIDE ANSWERS.
there are relatively few people working to provide support for The Jackass! Project. answering individual emails is a very inefficient use of our time, because we invariably answer the same questions over and over again. to efficiently utilize the free time that we have available to offer support, we will only respond to public requests for support in this Support Thread, where the answer will remain available as reference material for anyone else who may be interested in reading it.
we're just trying to be as efficient as possible, so that we can use our time to help the largest number of people that we can.
thanks.
edit: color change
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Last edited by Bob P on Thu May 26, 2005 12:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sade
Guru
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 406
Location: Netherlands - Eindhoven
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Bob P
Advocate
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
Posts: 3355
Location: Jackass! Development Labs
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| Sade wrote: | my advice, be like fonzy!  |
it really doesn't bother me as much as you might think. i just want those people who aren't getting responses to understand why their requests are being ignored.
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Bob P
Advocate
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
Posts: 3355
Location: Jackass! Development Labs
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| Bob P wrote: | | Sade wrote: | | my advice, be like fonzy! |
it really doesn't bother me as much as you might think. i just want those people who aren't getting responses to understand why their requests aren't being answered. |
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96140
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 4:26 am Post subject: Re: Jackass(Toolkity Build) + Genoo = FAST!!!!!!!!!!! |
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| flipnode wrote: | | I do have only one issue with the Jackass installation manual. During the configuration of the hostname and domain name, it gives you the option of using the depreciated way of setting or the new way. I used the new way, except it complains about the hostname not being set and wanting the old way to be set. What's the deal? Also, where can you go to find out when they make changes like this, b/c I didn't even know it was being depreciated. |
The deprecated way of setting the hostname was returned to the Guide because enough users were unable to use the proper method of setting their hostnames with /etc/conf.d.
These problems stem from the constant changes made to baselayout. It's just the luck of the draw when emerging packages with a given Portage tree; some users (like Bob) can use the proper method, others (such as myself) find that hostname only works with the "echo $NAME > /etc/hostname" trick.
In my opinion, the changes made to baselayout are poorly documented and consist of numerous inconsequential edits that do not require revision bumps; in point of fact, the Gentoo developer documents specifically state that revision bumps to an ebuild are unnecessary if they're only for things like new comment lines. Also, the official Gentoo installation guide is equally poor at keeping up with the changes made, though that might not be the doc writer's fault. One way I've discovered to keep tabs on what's happening in baselayout is to watch the forums for hostname troubles; the current state of affairs can be seen in the kinds of support requests made by the users. |
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ruach
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Posts: 67
Location: Utah
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96140
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| ruach wrote: | Can I use any of the pentium iso's on a Centrino?
-thanks |
This has been discussed elsewhere on the forums many times. If you want detailed info on your processor, first do: | Code: | | # cat /proc/cpuinfo |
But to answer your question, yes, you can. Centrino is a general Intel technology, not a specific processor. Centrino computers have a Pentium-M processor, so you can use the Jackass! Pentium III .iso.
Gentoo Wiki lists some of your processor's information (ignore the CFLAGS info). Finally, if you really want to get inside your processor's capabilities, do a forum search for "pentium m cflags use flags". |
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