KDE 3.4 in x86?

Mad Merlin · Veteran Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 1155

Is there any news on when KDE 3.4 will be moved to stable (more specifically, x86)? From what I've seen, it's been causing a number of issues for some people, is this mainly because of the split ebuilds? I ask because it's been almost 2 months now since KDE 3.4 was officially released, and AFAIK, it usually doesn't take this long for a new KDE build to be moved to stable.

ukchucktown · Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 10:09 pm Post subject:

I haven't had any problems running 3.4 of KDE on a Sony Vaio. I've had a few issues with my graphics driver, but KDE 3.4 seems pretty stable. certainly usable. I like the split ebuilds because you can assemble a minimal KDE install without all the bloat. It's a bit of hassle to configure the dependencies correctly using the package.keywords file, but well worth it. I included my latest /etc/portage/package.keywords file showing the applications I have installed and their dependencies. If you want to give it a spin, just create this file and do emerge startkde. You can add essentials like konqueror later. You may have to do some environment updating if you are currently running an old version. When it goes stable, update.

JackDog · Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 10:49 pm Post subject:

I agree its taken a while. Most of the issues I have seen and heard delt specifically with the meta builds. I am not convinced they are a step in the right direction. Everyone I know just uses the regular ebuilds as they seem to "just work" (tm). I would suggest staying away from the meta builds, that much fragmentation is not very friendly with the portage mindset.
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Mad Merlin · Veteran Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 1155

The meta ebuilds being (similar to) the ebuilds that were used for KDE 3.3 and such? Like kdebase and kdenetwork and so on? I would have thought they'd cause less of a problem, I guess not...

JackDog · Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 12:06 pm Post subject:

No the metabuilds break down kde more or less by application, not functional area.
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LaNcom · Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 5:30 pm Post subject:

I think it would have been better to have the functionality of the meta-packages built on an environment variable, like the KDE-standard DO_NOT_COMPILE (like, use that or a similar variable when emerging KDE, and select the meta-packages accordingly) - would be much more user-friendly, but probably harder to do...?

JackDog · Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 6:48 pm Post subject:

Jengu · Guru Joined: 28 Oct 2004 Posts: 384

JackDog · Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject:

Except that with split ebuilds there are going to be problems nearly every release wrt module dependencies. Some of the apps and frameworks were just not ment to be split up.
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Snowlock · n00b Joined: 15 Aug 2004 Posts: 38

Anyone know when the KDE 3.4 split eBuilds will go stable? Just wondering if there has been any updates

bsander · Tux's lil' helper Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 104

Yeah, I asked that here recently. Looks like it's going to take another while..

andyfraser33 · Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 2:22 pm Post subject:

One of the reasons I moved to Gentoo was because it's stable packages are relatively up to date, especially for the larger, more popular stuff, and I can easily upgrade to new versions via Portage without the headaches of other distros. New releases of other distros will ship with KDE 3.4 and this fiasco is putting Gentoo behind.

I could always use the KDE 3.4 ebuilds from ~x86 but Gentoo is my main OS and I can't afford to encounter any major problems. I do use ~x86 ebuilds for some things but they're single packages and not major systems like KDE.

The rest of this post assumes that the delay is being caused by the meta ebuilds.

If this is going to be a one off issue then I'll ride it out. If the meta ebuids are going to cause this sort of delay with every release then I suggest they drop the idea. It just doesn't seem worth it if it pushes Gentoo behind other distros IMHO. I was all for the split ebuilds when I first heard about them but I'm rapidly changing my mind.

Is it possible to move the monolithic ebuilds into stable then let the devs work on the split ebuilds? If so I suggest they do this. I also suggest that they concentrate on releasing the monolithic ebuilds before the split ebuilds until all the issues are sorted and maybe even push the plan to move to split ebuilds only with KDE4 back if they haven't done so already.

There's a Gentoo KDE project page that can be reached at http://kde.gentoo.org but it doesn't contain any information about the status of the project. I suggest that this page could be used for news and updates instead of keeping users in the dark. Gentoo users are used to getting the latest software fairly soon after it's released and I for one find this situation frustrating. This frustration is compounded by the lack of information and a couple of issues with 3.3.2 that 3.4 apparently solves (a KMail bug that infuriates the hell out of me for one).

I realise that the Gentoo devs put a lot of hard work into this project and I know they do this in their own time and we get the results for free. As such I make it a point to not moan about Gentoo. I feel that this situation has been mismanaged though and can't keep quiet about it any longer.
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Arainach · l33t Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 609

KDE 3.4 is HUGE. Hundreds of Packages, hundreds of Megabytes. To try and test all of that for errors or security flaws takes a LOT of time. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if it took more than a year from release to x86 for KDE 3.4. It's huge, bloated, and difficult to test. It's not like it'll totally crash your system; just run it from ~x86. I did to install it, and nothing bad has happened. I don't use the full monolithic ebuild, but Just paste the following in /etc/portage/package.keywords:

andyfraser33 · Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 4:42 pm Post subject:

Arainach · l33t Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 609

You don't get it - Gentoo's x86 is supposed to be stable. There hasn't been enoguh time to prove KDE 3.4 stable. The x86 vs. ~x86 tree is one of Gentoo's main advantages over other distros. Only Debian has a stabler branch. If you're not willing to use portage, you shouldn't be using Gentoo. /etc/portage/package.keywords does exactly what you need - allows you to run some packages (like KDE) ~x86 while keeping the rest of your system x86. Use it or stop whining.
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BitJam · Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 8:24 pm Post subject:

I'll chime in on the "KDE split ebuilds are great" side.

I disagree that the split ebuilds caused a problem. IMO the problem is a clash between the Gentoo way of doing things and the hugeness that is KDE. I've installed the split ebuilds and things went fairly well. A few packages borked and if they were unimportant (to me) I just skipped over them. If these were part of a monolithic ebuild then I would have been SOL.

Some of the problems I have seen (and seen reported by others) have to do with things like which version of automake is needed for which package. To state the obvious, Gentoo distributes source code and instructions inside of ebuild files that tell systems how to do the compiles. Not all Gentooers have identical systems. Different people have different versions of various parts of the make/compile tool chain. It should not be a big surprise that coming up with a set of instructions on how to compile that will work for everyone is a heck of a lot more difficult than just getting something to compile once on one given and known system. Monolithic ebuilds don't solve this problem.

With huge monolithic ebuilds, even getting 99.9% of all of the KDE parts working does not suffice. The user needs it 100% working in order to install correctly. But KDE has many many different packages and we users have many many different systems so getting all the packages working on all the systems can take a long time. In the meantime, most of the packages are already working for most of the users. Therefore the split ebuilds let most people have a working stable KDE 3.4 today. That's why I think the split ebuilds are great.

andyfraser33 · Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 8:37 pm Post subject:

Arainach · l33t Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 609

KDE 3.4 has a lot to be tested, and will remain unstable until it's tested. That's the nature of portage. If you want it, then you accept its ~x86 nature. Just because other distros are willing to run untested Window Managers as "stable" does not mean that Gentoo has to. Most Gentoo users consider this a benefit. The Split ebuilds are not holding up testing; the giant size is.
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andyfraser33 · Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 8:52 pm Post subject:

andyfraser33 · Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 9:08 pm Post subject:

brullonulla · Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 10:39 pm Post subject:

andyfraser33, you're essentially whining because you can't get KDE 3.4 stable x86 Right Now(TM). You know, there's only one way to have what you want: install kde 3.4 ~x86, report bugs and help developers/packagers to have a stable x86 version ASAP. You don't want to do it? Fine, but then stop complaining.

I'm a heavy KDE user, and I'm waiting for 3.4 too. I'd love to see it tomorrow when I sync. But I don't expect it to happen, nor I want it to happen really if it doesn't mean I'm emerging a really stable package. Just for your same reasons -I don't want to emerge ~x86 for essential packages that I heavily use. Too much times (well,not that much...sometimes) I saw and I see "stable" Gentoo packages being unstable or even unable to emerge. See the thread about X lockups to learn that sometimes even stable packages are not so stable.

So I understand you want a stable KDE 3.4. But stable package means tested package. It means something that can be trusted, and can be trusted only by testing. It is plain senseless and unbearable to see you come here and stomp your feet on the floor like a child to have your stable package, if you do nothing to test it, package it, make it available to the world. AFAIK the Gentoo KDE maintainers are not paid for their work. I'd like to help them, but I have not the time, nor the skills, nor the possibility to do it. So I'm in their hands, and I will thank them a lot when they'll give me their work for free. The split ebuilds are cool and add much flexibility to Gentoo, so I support them even if it means a little delay.

I could have understood you if we were talking about a gigantic delay (see for example the aeternal almost-release of Sarge as the new Debian Stable). We're just talking about a couple of months or a little more of delay. It looks absolutely OK to me, given the complexity and the size of KDE. If you can do anything much better, please do it instead of complaining.
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andyfraser33 · Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:19 am Post subject:

Arainach · l33t Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 609

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andyfraser33 · Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:12 pm Post subject: