| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
rjpa
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 94
|
 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:59 am Post subject: Install Gentoo via an installer? |
 |
|
Hi,
Is there any live-cd/cd/dvd with Gentoo that can be installed on a localdrive in matter of minutes, a little like Mepis, Ubuntu etc?
I have an Asys M6N 1.6GHz/ATI Radeon 9600/60GB HDD/IPW2100 Wireless etc.
Please tell me if it exists?
Cheers
Rasmus |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
drwook
Veteran
Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 1324
Location: London
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| You could use the GRP package sets if that's what you're after? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rjpa
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 94
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| drwook wrote: | | You could use the GRP package sets if that's what you're after? |
drwook, not really. I'm looking for a live-cd sorta thing with graphical installer (anaconda, gentoo installer whatever).
Know of something like that?
Cheers
Rasmus |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Deathwing00
Bodhisattva
Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 4087
Location: Dresden, Germany
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| A graphical installer was being developed, but as most users wouldn't use it I am not sure about its status. Currently the only trusted way to install gentoo is following the Installation Handbook. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kastorff
Apprentice
Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Atlanta, GA USA
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
genneth
Apprentice
Joined: 24 Mar 2003
Posts: 152
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| rjpa wrote: | | drwook wrote: | | You could use the GRP package sets if that's what you're after? |
drwook, not really. I'm looking for a live-cd sorta thing with graphical installer (anaconda, gentoo installer whatever).
Know of something like that?
Cheers
Rasmus |
What's wrong with the existing install procedure?
_________________
[img]http://www.kordix.com/rpi/?u=genneth[/img] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
iswope
n00b
Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 7
Location: Chicago, IL USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:00 am Post subject: Vida LInux |
|
|
I have to agree with the above poster. Vidalinux is actually a great way to get Gentoo installed with Zero command line use. It uses the Anaconda installer and installes a full Gnome desktop system in a pretty short amount of time. Once the desktop is loaded you're only one emerge sync; emerge -uD system; emerge -uD world away from a full gentoo system.
Cheers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Felly
n00b
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 34
Location: Belgium
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
Very interesting distro.
I hate to say it, but is there a KDE equivalent ? 
Don't want to start a holy war again, I just happen to prefer one over the other  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
St. Joe
Apprentice
Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 242
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Felly wrote: | Very interesting distro.
I hate to say it, but is there a KDE equivalent ? |
Just install Vida then emerge kde.
| kastorff wrote: | | http://desktop.vidalinux.com/ |
Whoa, right there.
Really, Vidalinux is _NOT_ meant to be a Gentoo installation device. People who say this don't follow the advice of Vidalinux's own developers. It can cause all sorts of problems if you decide to do world updates since that would leave you with having to perform etc-update sessions with literally zero idea of which files the vida-installer had altered; which means you are attempting the procedure totally blind, and with little real hope of ever getting it right.
_________________
For every hammer there is a nail.
For every nail there is a thumb. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
re_re
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 129
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
litrix 3.0 is another way to install a gentoo system on an x86 system.. not sure about x86_64
I have the litrix 3.0 cd (previous versions were not gentoo based) but i ahve not used it as i already have 4 computers with stage 1 on 3 installs... but i'll probably try it soon enough
I think Litrix is a live cd but it can be installed to your hd
_________________
MSI 865PE Neo2 FISR, p4 2.6c, nv 5600
MSI K8N FSR, athlon64 2800+ @2016mhz, nv 6800xt
Compaq Deskpro Pentium3 500mhz
Macbook Pro 1.83ghz 1.5 gig pc5300 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kastorff
Apprentice
Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Atlanta, GA USA
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| St. Joe wrote: | | Felly wrote: | Very interesting distro.
I hate to say it, but is there a KDE equivalent ? |
Just install Vida then emerge kde.
| kastorff wrote: | | http://desktop.vidalinux.com/ |
Whoa, right there.
Really, Vidalinux is _NOT_ meant to be a Gentoo installation device. People who say this don't follow the advice of Vidalinux's own developers. It can cause all sorts of problems if you decide to do world updates since that would leave you with having to perform etc-update sessions with literally zero idea of which files the vida-installer had altered; which means you are attempting the procedure totally blind, and with little real hope of ever getting it right. |
Ever used Vidalinux? I've got pure Gentoo and Vidalinux installs. I've spent extensive time with both, and you can do precisely what you caution against. Sure, if you load Vidalinux and then emerge world you'll have to update a lot of configuration files. If you loaded a Gentoo machine, and let it sit for six months, and then emerged world, you'd have the same thing. Vidalinux is a snapshot; a fresh Gentoo install is practically up to date by the very nature of Gentoo's install process. Anyone who doesn't know what they are doing when they update a Gentoo machine, regardless of it's installation origin can have problems. Vidalinux and Gentoo don't have to be alternate paths to the same destination; but they can be.
_________________
Keith Kastorff |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
St. Joe
Apprentice
Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 242
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kastorff wrote: | | Ever used Vidalinux? I've got pure Gentoo and Vidalinux installs. I've spent extensive time with both, and you can do precisely what you caution against. Sure, if you load Vidalinux and then emerge world you'll have to update a lot of configuration files. If you loaded a Gentoo machine, and let it sit for six months, and then emerged world, you'd have the same thing. Vidalinux is a snapshot; a fresh Gentoo install is practically up to date by the very nature of Gentoo's install process. |
Yes, I've used Vida. And you are missing the point. Vida's own developers do not advise using it to perform world upgrades. You are correct in saying that under the two scenarios you present that a person would have "a lot" of configuration files to upgrade. However, since Vida has an hands-off installer there is absolutely no method by which a user would have any idea which config files had been altered during that process. This is a crucial element when attempting to determine in the etc-update session what should be done in order to properly handle those files. A person might very well think that a set of new files can just be adopted, without ever having any idea that Vida made some important changes which need to be merged.
In short, it places blinders over the user and makes it impossible to properly manage their system without significant risk. This is not how a Linux system should ever be run.
_________________
For every hammer there is a nail.
For every nail there is a thumb. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rbiswarup
n00b
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 26
Location: India
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: Install Gentoo via an installer? |
|
|
| rjpa wrote: | Hi,
Is there any live-cd/cd/dvd with Gentoo that can be installed on a localdrive in matter of minutes, a little like Mepis, Ubuntu etc?
I have an Asys M6N 1.6GHz/ATI Radeon 9600/60GB HDD/IPW2100 Wireless etc.
Please tell me if it exists?
Cheers
Rasmus |
You can try Jackass!. You have to just untar a tarball and compile the kernel. If you don't want to compile kernel then you may use the genkernel, details are in gentoo installation handbook. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kastorff
Apprentice
Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Atlanta, GA USA
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| St. Joe wrote: | | Vida's own developers do not advise using it to perform world upgrades. |
Could you provide the source of this information? It doesn't appear to be readily available on the Vidalinux site, nor have I seen it mentioned on their forums. It seems to be the cornerstone of your point, and differs completely with my personal experience (and others).
And I think you're missing the point, from my perspective. What you caution against can be done, with no more risk than updating configuration files with etc-update on a pure Gentoo system, regardless of what the developers might have said. Have you ever seen technical support advise against doing something with a software product that they haven't done themselves, and therefore consider it risky, when it might not be? We also have to allow for the fact the position you refer to might simply be a "we don't want to support it, so please don't do it" type of stance.
Let me also say, I do recommend one install a Gentoo system the "Gentoo way". But for some, Vidalinux is a great way to bypass what might be a daunting install process in order to learn some of the benefits of a Gentoo-based distro.
_________________
Keith Kastorff |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
St. Joe
Apprentice
Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 242
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kastorff wrote: | | Could you provide the source of this information? It doesn't appear to be readily available on the Vidalinux site, nor have I seen it mentioned on their forums. |
I've seen it posted on their forums, but that was at their previous addy. The forum topic was addressing how to upgrade a gnome version, and one of the devels cautioned against doing a system update since it could result in the same type of scenario that I was discussing.
| kastorff wrote: | | What you caution against can be done, with no more risk than updating configuration files with etc-update on a pure Gentoo system, regardless of what the developers might have said. |
There is vastly more risk since if you go about updating config files from a Vida install you have absolutely no idea what has been modified and/or appended. You are introducing multiple points of failure with each of these. If I do an etc-update from a pure Gentoo install, I am perfectly aware of which config files I have edited and why it was done. This is crucial information that the Vida user does not have at their disposal.
It is improper to suggest that doing something blind is just as risky as doing the same task with reasonable knowledge. With each point of failure that is introduced there is an increasing risk of an eventual error. Every config file that you manage blindly is an additional point of failure. Do Gentoo users make mistakes using etc-update? Of course. But for the Vida user the problem is compounded by being essentially ushered into a room and turning out the light.
You can not possibly hope to demonstrate that a new Vida user would have an informed idea of how to proceed through an etc-update, when they are totally ignorant of what has been touched by the auto-installer. There could be some very important modifications in the files, but being unaware of this they might merge the wrong text or delete them completely. A Gentoo user would/should know about these beforehand since they are the ones who made the mods. Also, if the new file contains updates, they might out of fear and ignorance just zap it, never fully understanding what they are really looking at or trying to accomplish.
| kastorff wrote: | | Let me also say, I do recommend one install a Gentoo system the "Gentoo way". But for some, Vidalinux is a great way to bypass what might be a daunting install process in order to learn some of the benefits of a Gentoo-based distro. |
I completely agree. The key words being "Gentoo-based".
_________________
For every hammer there is a nail.
For every nail there is a thumb. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kastorff
Apprentice
Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Atlanta, GA USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| St. Joe wrote: | | I've seen it posted on their forums, but that was at their previous addy. The forum topic was addressing how to upgrade a gnome version, and one of the devels cautioned against doing a system update since it could result in the same type of scenario that I was discussing. |
So old information is valid forever then? Is it possible that Vidalinux 1.1 is different, and might be constructed differently? You are ignoring the fact that Vidalinux 1.1's config files are essentially the same as Gentoo 2004.3, and can be managed similarly. Conjecture about potential issues that I've not experienced doing precisely what you keep cautioning about must eventually step aside for actual real life experience. At what point would you concede your theoretical issues never translate to actual issues?
| St. Joe wrote: | There is vastly more risk since if you go about updating config files from a Vida install you have absolutely no idea what has been modified and/or appended. You are introducing multiple points of failure with each of these. If I do an etc-update from a pure Gentoo install, I am perfectly aware of which config files I have edited and why it was done. This is crucial information that the Vida user does not have at their disposal.
It is improper to suggest that doing something blind is just as risky as doing the same task with reasonable knowledge. With each point of failure that is introduced there is an increasing risk of an eventual error. Every config file that you manage blindly is an additional point of failure. Do Gentoo users make mistakes using etc-update? Of course. But for the Vida user the problem is compounded by being essentially ushered into a room and turning out the light.
You can not possibly hope to demonstrate that a new Vida user would have an informed idea of how to proceed through an etc-update, when they are totally ignorant of what has been touched by the auto-installer. There could be some very important modifications in the files, but being unaware of this they might merge the wrong text or delete them completely. A Gentoo user would/should know about these beforehand since they are the ones who made the mods. Also, if the new file contains updates, they might out of fear and ignorance just zap it, never fully understanding what they are really looking at or trying to accomplish. |
There could be more risk, of course, but it doesn't play out in real life...every person I know who has had issues with etc-update on Vidalinux had to do with their lack of understanding of the config change itself, not any differences between Vidalinux 1.1 and Gentoo 2004.3. I can look at config files and see what they contain; at that point I can know exactly what they contain...no one is blind. Etc-update is a tricky process for the uniformed; but that is inherent to the process, as one is changing important configuration files. The system user must view individually each change and determine the risk, that's the nature of the process. Gentoo users get in trouble all the time running etc-update "blind"; they installed their systems, so the assumption that the installation method would alleviate the risk of etc-update just doesn't translate to the real world. It's quite possible to install Gentoo and still have no real understanding of what was done...happens all the time. The experience of the user, whether using Vidalinux or Gentoo, is what manages the risk.
_________________
Keith Kastorff |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
andrewd18
Guru
Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 364
Location: Wisconsin, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
What seems to be the issue here is that St. Joe is saying people who run Vidalinux inherently know less than those who use Gentoo.
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-361000.html --- etc-update
"I thought I only replaced the files that I knew wouldnt break my system, but I was wrong."
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-268645.html --- CFLAGS (popular thread here)
"Extreme CFLAGS Problems"
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-360858.html --- Installed Gentoo over the 'net via the handbook, but apparently doesn't have a working network card?!?
"Hours of Install = Stuck At Command Line"
People who install Gentoo on a Stage 3 right out of the handbook, modifying nothing from the defaults, only learn marginally more than those who run a VidaLinux install. Search around - there are plenty of people on this forum who have done so, and then have wierd issues because they didn't learn when they could have.
Just because I typed out a few commands from the handbook doesn't mean I know what I'm doing, or that I won't screw up the system when I etc-update. I installed some things on my hardened Gentoo server that I have NO idea what they do. I'm trusting that GRSec and PaX are doing a good job at securing my server because I configged them like the manual said; can I give you the details WHY that is, now that I've done a Hardenend install? Can I tell you that I know exactly what my apache2.conf file contains, how it works for my server, or why I chose exactly what I did, just because I followed the handbook?
NO. Vidalinux users can still learn at the same pace Gentoo users do, but that learning starts after anaconda's finished. Gentoo users get the option to learn earlier, but it's not a definite guarantee that they will.
On the subject of etc-updates, and the difference between Vida and Gentoo in the respect... I'll admit - the first etc-update is hard, no matter whether you're using Vida or Gentoo. But no matter which distro you use, it's still the same software. I can always run a man program or run a Google search and find out how its config file is laid out, and what the individual options do, before I go ahead and commit that change. I can always pull up the Vida pre-defined config and look inside, comparing to the man page or the Google.
~~ Andrew D.
_________________
Keep Your Toolchain Stable! - emwrap.sh
There's no place like ::1 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
St. Joe
Apprentice
Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 242
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kastorff wrote: | | At what point would you concede your theoretical issues never translate to actual issues? |
I am speaking from personal experience and an actual issue. I installed Vida and went through an ect-update session where I completely hosed my system with improper config edits. I then went and did a Gentoo handbook install and performed the etc-update again. This time I recognized what mods had been made since I was the one who made them, and was able to correctly merge the files so that my system remained functional. If I had not done this I would not have the knowledge of what to edit and why. The best I could have done was make an educated guess.
| kastorff wrote: | | There could be more risk, of course, but it doesn't play out in real life...every person I know who has had issues with etc-update on Vidalinux had to do with their lack of understanding of the config change itself, not any differences between Vidalinux 1.1 and Gentoo 2004.3. I can look at config files and see what they contain; at that point I can know exactly what they contain...no one is blind. |
You're missing the point. Yes, you know what is in them as you are looking with your eyes. When I say that a person is "blind" I do not intend to presume they are unable to see what task is before them. But since they have no knowledge of what modifications have been made they are at a disadvantage to someone who does. It's just that simple. Again, using such a method introduces multiple points of failure. This goes against my idea of how to manage a system.
_________________
For every hammer there is a nail.
For every nail there is a thumb. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kastorff
Apprentice
Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Atlanta, GA USA
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| St. Joe wrote: |
I am speaking from personal experience and an actual issue. I installed Vida and went through an ect-update session where I completely hosed my system with improper config edits. I then went and did a Gentoo handbook install and performed the etc-update again. This time I recognized what mods had been made since I was the one who made them, and was able to correctly merge the files so that my system remained functional. If I had not done this I would not have the knowledge of what to edit and why. The best I could have done was make an educated guess. |
Okay, so you were unable to update your config files without hosing your system and I was able to update my config files without hosing my system. I didn't do anything special other than look at the proposed changes and make a decision on whether or not to use the new config. I still maintain that is more an issue of who is doing the updating than any major differences between Vidalinux 1.1 and Gentoo 2004.3. If there were major differences in the two, surely I would have broken my system too, wouldn't you think?
| St. Joe wrote: |
You're missing the point. Yes, you know what is in them as you are looking with your eyes. When I say that a person is "blind" I do not intend to presume they are unable to see what task is before them. But since they have no knowledge of what modifications have been made they are at a disadvantage to someone who does. It's just that simple. Again, using such a method introduces multiple points of failure. This goes against my idea of how to manage a system. |
And I point you to the dozens of posts on this board where folks have installed Gentoo by the book, and still don't understand what's really there. Those multiple points of failure are present in any Linux system, using any distro. It still boils down to the individual. In the end, someone reading this thread will have to decide which viewpoint makes the most sense, and go on from there. Take care... 
_________________
Keith Kastorff |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
St. Joe
Apprentice
Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 242
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kastorff wrote: | | I still maintain that is more an issue of who is doing the updating than any major differences between Vidalinux 1.1 and Gentoo 2004.3. |
I agree. Even very knowledgeable people shoot themselves in the foot everyday. But this does not mean that diminished knowledge is better, or that it is less problematic. There are additional resources available to a traditional Gentoo installer that is obtained during the process, and if used properly it will give them a distinct advantage when making system configurations. Being ignorant of this due to carelessness, lack of interest, or some other reason is a totally separate issue.
| kastorff wrote: | | If there were major differences in the two, surely I would have broken my system too, wouldn't you think? |
You are a Linux distro forum administrator and as such have somewhat of an "above average" understanding of how to configure many aspects of a Linux system. Gentoo is different in many ways from other distros, but it does also share a vast amount of similarity; especially when it comes to text editing. It is reasonable to suggest that this was a valuable asset when performing your etc-update. In any case, to say that it played no role at all would be somewhat difficult to believe.
Besides which, whether you and I share similar experiences is beside the point. If both of us were to survive identical operations from a surgeon that had faked their medical liscense, it does not mean that it would be to the benefit of the next patient to seek the same procedure. If there are unneccsary points of failure then this in and of itself is a sufficient argument.
| kastorff wrote: | | And I point you to the dozens of posts on this board where folks have installed Gentoo by the book, and still don't understand what's really there. Those multiple points of failure are present in any Linux system, using any distro. |
I am not contenting that the traditional Gentoo method of installation has no risks when it comes to configuring a fresh system. However, this is generally known and mentioned with Gentoo, and so the user is aware of the conditions before the process begins. The same can not be said of a person who makes appearances out of something which does not exist, such as contending that a set of procedures carries no increased risk to the user when in fact they do; relying more upon unweighted experience instead of sound reasoning.
The fact that someone does not (or cares not) to understand the information available to them doesn't equate to nullifying the importance of that knowledge. If I give you an instruction on how to drive a car, and you then immediately run it into a pole due to not paying attention to the lesson, this should by no means then be used to assert that a driving tutorial has no value. If in landing your car on the pole you assert that you just "don't understand what's really there", then this only makes you a victim of a choice which could have been averted.
You do not seem to make a sincere protest against my central point, which is that there are increased points of failure with an etc-update session from a Vida-install; preferring instead to mention that you just fail to see its relevance. I have mentioned a variety of reasons why this should be discounted, but ultimately my belief is that the existence of such an environment is all the relevance that is required. Knowing whether one or a thousand people stumble over it is not needed before understanding and communicating the facts to others.
_________________
For every hammer there is a nail.
For every nail there is a thumb. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kastorff
Apprentice
Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Atlanta, GA USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| St. Joe wrote: | | You do not seem to make a sincere protest against my central point, which is that there are increased points of failure with an etc-update session from a Vida-install; preferring instead to mention that you just fail to see its relevance. I have mentioned a variety of reasons why this should be discounted, but ultimately my belief is that the existence of such an environment is all the relevance that is required. Knowing whether one or a thousand people stumble over it is not needed before understanding and communicating the facts to others. |
If one doesn't challenge something, it is not an indicator of agreement, but I'll give you points for trying the tactic. My experience is that there is little difference between Vidalinux 1.1 and a Gentoo 2004.3 system aside from the method of installation and the obviously very high percentage of binary applications installed with Vidalinux. You have not presented any evidence to the contrary aside from your inability to update a Vidalinux machine without hosing your system. I was able to do what you were not. My experience doesn't match your experience, and I fail to see merit in your experience that would give it precedence over mine. You prefer to ignore my experience in favor of your own; I do believe I'll do the same. No harm in that...
As someone who has professional experience in risk management, I must challenge your assertion that the probability of one encountering an event has no relevant bearing on the risk is completely false. One person experiencing an event versus one thousand experiencing the event impacts the risk factor significantly, whether that be to raise or lower the risk. The probability of an airplane falling on my house is mathematically insignificant, and my insurance company believes the risk to be negligible. While the event could happen, no one would listen seriously to Chicken Little parking in front of my house preaching doom. Your "facts" are speculation driven by your own experience. I will not say you didn't have problems, but since we agree experience can play a factor, it's reasonable to assume that your "facts" are more that product of your experience than a matter of concrete factual evidence.
If what you assert was true, I suspect the Vidalinux forums would be full of posts where people tried to update their systems and borked them completely. Online Linux publications would crucify the distro. The fact that we don't see that encourages the reasonable conclusion that your experience is not the common occurence you would suggest.
_________________
Keith Kastorff |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
St. Joe
Apprentice
Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 242
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kastorff wrote: | | If one doesn't challenge something, it is not an indicator of agreement, but I'll give you points for trying the tactic. My experience is that there is little difference between Vidalinux 1.1 and a Gentoo 2004.3 system aside from the method of installation and the obviously very high percentage of binary applications installed with Vidalinux. You have not presented any evidence to the contrary aside from your inability to update a Vidalinux machine without hosing your system. |
I have no "tactic" as you say, as was only making an observation which could easily be seen by anyone reading this thread. I did not attempt to reveal any motivation for you doing so, or to present an assumption regarding the method of such an omission, but you seem to have no problem doing the opposite. This is your choice and I leave you to it, but I will not participate is such a side bar.
Again, I am not attempting to place numbers or qualifications on how many people are impacted by the very obvious increased points of failure. It does exist, and that is sufficient cause enough to educate people and take steps to prevent them from being ignorant of how to manage their system. Knowledge is to be preferred and hopefully this will help others who find themselves in a situation where they are unable to proceed due to an inherent disadvantage.
I do not find where forum posts are a good indicator of whether or not people are impacted by this problem, since they probably don't even know what the real issue is in this matter. They most likely are just saying something along the lines of, "Help me, I don't understand this etc-update function" and don't even comprehend that their real stumbling block is the fact that they are in ignorance regarding mods that were made to their system, and which they are totally unaware of and have no control over.
_________________
For every hammer there is a nail.
For every nail there is a thumb. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kastorff
Apprentice
Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Atlanta, GA USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| St. Joe wrote: | | I have no "tactic" as you say, as was only making an observation which could easily be seen by anyone reading this thread. I did not attempt to reveal any motivation for you doing so, or to present an assumption regarding the method of such an omission, but you seem to have no problem doing the opposite. This is your choice and I leave you to it, but I will not participate is such a side bar. |
You attempt to draw a conclusion from your "observation", which could reasonably be called a tactic in a dialog such as this. If you don't like the term, that's fine by me, but it doesn't make my comment on it peripheral to the discussion. One could also reasonably state that calling it a sidebar is another tactic designed to discredit a statement by another. Tactics are tactics.
| St. Joe wrote: | | Again, I am not attempting to place numbers or qualifications on how many people are impacted by the very obvious increased points of failure. It does exist, and that is sufficient cause enough to educate people and take steps to prevent them from being ignorant of how to manage their system. Knowledge is to be preferred and hopefully this will help others who find themselves in a situation where they are unable to proceed due to an inherent disadvantage. |
I do believe in educating people. I disagree with your premise that essentially states one should not update Vidalinux ("world updates") without seriously risking the function of the system. Your "points of failure" line of thought sounds good on the surface, but isn't really substantiated by fact, so where does that place it in the realm of education? Propaganda? Conjecture? Marketing? It's simply your opinion, and that's all. The fact that you refuse to place numbers or qualifications on how many people are impacted doesn't help your position, and I'm surprised you fail to realize that, since you are clearly thoughtful about the issue. As for the knowlege presented in this thread, I believe we've already taken care of that. There are two opinions presented, and it appears, essentially concluded.
| St. Joe wrote: | | I do not find where forum posts are a good indicator of whether or not people are impacted by this problem, since they probably don't even know what the real issue is in this matter. They most likely are just saying something along the lines of, "Help me, I don't understand this etc-update function" and don't even comprehend that their real stumbling block is the fact that they are in ignorance regarding mods that were made to their system, and which they are totally unaware of and have no control over. |
Each to their own experience. Perhaps my role as a "Linux distro forum administrator" gives me some insight?
In every dialog, there comes a time when all that should be said, has been said, and I believe we're reached that point. You are welcome to your perspective, as I am to mine, and I've enjoyed our moment. I love free speech. Take care...
_________________
Keith Kastorff |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rjpa
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 25 Dec 2003
Posts: 94
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Hey guys, please stick to the subject of this thread, please. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
St. Joe
Apprentice
Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 242
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| rjpa wrote: | | Hey guys, please stick to the subject of this thread, please. |
The subject was, "Install Gentoo Via an Installer?"
An aspect of this is precisely what has been discussed.
| kastorff wrote: | | Your "points of failure" line of thought sounds good on the surface, but isn't really substantiated by fact, so where does that place it in the realm of education? Propaganda? Conjecture? Marketing? It's simply your opinion, and that's all. |
This is obviously incorrect since it is readily apparent that any person is much more likely to encounter difficulty or failure due to a lack of comprehension and knowledge. Whether or not they use that knowledge correctly is a completely different subject. You point to Gentoo users having difficulty with the etc-update sessions, but to what end? This is a blatant form of conjecture and yet you have a desire to label it as evidence regarding similarity of user experiences. I took it and used this information to evaluate your position, and did so without your continued practice of belittling stated arguments.
| kastorff wrote: | | The fact that you refuse to place numbers or qualifications on how many people are impacted doesn't help your position, and I'm surprised you fail to realize that, since you are clearly thoughtful about the issue. |
Refuse? What numbers are there save the fact that Vida users are less equipped to handle system configurations due to a lack of mod-file knowledge, my own experience which validates this, and the numerous posts at Vida's forums which ask for etc-update session assistance; but which you completely disregard (out of hand) as having anything to do with this issue. You reference Gentoo posts, but this is not applicable since we can at least eliminate the idea that these people are stumbling over certain resources that were never made available.
How would these Vida users even realize that they were operating under such a disadvantage? All they can do is post up in the forums and ask for help. I would assume that others would attempt to guide them in whatever way that might be possible, but you certainly can't expect to conclude that since they are unable to miraculously determine the cause of a problem they are blind to, that this once and for all eliminates the most obvious culprit. You might as well expect a person to diagnose themselves with cancer when they've never even heard of the disease. And then I suppose following this logic, you would conclude no such thing as cancer exists since nobody realizes why they are so very sick.
You want to make the assertion that it makes no difference whether or not someone is lacking in knowledge or awareness when accessing a problem. Yes we are talking about a Linux installer, but in all honesty that really is what you are presenting here for debate. Common reasoning should tell anyone that it clearly makes little sense to propose that an individual suffers no disadvantage in an environment due to a shortage of resources and understanding. The same would hold true under any circumstance.
I continue to find your arguments very unconvincing. I would even go so far as to suggest that you link this thread to some form of communication with the Vida devs and request feedback from their perspective. I would be very surprised to hear if they did not concur with the majority of my central points. The only thing I am suggesting is that users be provided with resources when available, and then try and put them in a position where they are able to make reasoned determinations based on that knowledge. Things are difficult enough without taking steps to provide aid when it is beneficial to everyone involved.
_________________
For every hammer there is a nail.
For every nail there is a thumb. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
Unsupported Software
