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lusken
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 88
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 Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| scruff wrote: | I just happened upon this thread while reading through some other stuff and just wanted to say: I am never done being impressed with Linux! Right now I am ripping/encoding a DVD using Acidrip, watching an AVI while surfing the web at blazing speeds and chatting on Gaim. I don't even notice my CPU usage is @ 100%. Just for the hell of it, I fired up another instance of mplayer - now watching the same move, in 2 windows, one almost over and one just beginning, and never saw a hiccup. This box is also a Samba server for my SONOS system (www.sonos.com), an NFS server for my wife and kids celeron box (/home and /data reside on this box), a webserver for my website, a mailserver for my domain... Shall I continue? What can Linux do to compete with Windows? I say, what can Windows do to compete with Linux?!
After running Linux exclusively for 3 years, I am still impressed. Gotta love it 
-Scruff |
SHUT UP and send your computer to me! |
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yoshi314
l33t
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 850
Location: PL
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: |
What came first? |
the compiler, of course to make both wine and emulators possible. is that so important?
linux is more capable than windows. windows still has issues with supporting multiple users on one home box at the same time. using it without a mouse is a major pain. using it as a server/desktop combination is a real pain. remote non-gui login. is it possible? console is weak as a babyfart
btw about that rebooting. when that kexec calls are finally implemented, we might not need to do that many reboots as we are doing now with linux. (booting a new kernel while the machine is working, or something like that)
| Quote: | | Windows is stronger in userfriendliness and hardware support. Oh.. and rebooting! I mean, really... we're running behind... even OSX is doing better than us. Maybe emerge should provide built-in support for this. |
well i doubt about that hardware support. give windows a not-a-top-of-the-shelf-hardware and see what happens for yourself ("how do you want to crash today?"). like an exotic gfx card, or some other piece of weird hardware. m$ only supports top-of-the-shelf-hardware properly. :/
and userfriendliness too. try enabling DMA transfers on non-DMA capable device in win98. then try to reboot your system and undo the changes ^_^
what sucks about longhorn is that i only hear about visual features all the time. and the functionality? i heard it's going to have better console (i mean more powerful with more console system-tools) and that's about it. aside from the propaganda (better, faster, wallet)
| Quote: | | if you've used Apple MacOSX, then i think you'll agree that MacOSX is even a whole lot better regarding userfriendliness. I personally don't feel at home on OSX, it just doesn't match the way i tend to use my computer, but i do think it's a really nice OS. And i do think OSX is in many areas superior to Windows. No doubt about that. Now i wonder about another thing... why compare with Longhorn? Why not compare with OSX like it is now. OSX has a fully accelerated 3d gui now. It has Spotlight now. It has Dashboard now. It has Expose now. Actually, i wonder.. tell me one area where MacOSX does not beat windows and linux. |
apple has what m$ never will - creative people with tons of good ideas. i mean, linux always goes in the steps of apple (esp. KDE) and it's quite hard to outrun those folks and surprise them.
------------------------------------------
now for some obvious stuff about m$
m$ is a damn copycat, and they somehow get manage to get away with that. they shout how inventive they are. yeah righ. i can only agree on WGA perhaps. that might be their invention. also they don't really care about users.
i heard that 90% of requested features are already implemented in existing version of ms office.
what would you do? - i would just maintain my existing product, since it has almost all needed funcitionality, and there is no real need for a new version.
m$ decided to release new m$ office, with a new backwards-incompatible document format, higher hw requirements, and more bloat. just to squeeze that extra cash from dumb people that expect "new features" from the software.
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mikkoloo
Apprentice
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 159
Location: .se and .nl
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:59 am Post subject: |
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of course they must add more features, even if its working and on top of the market, you could never sell a whole new package with only mantainance updates. That's what patches are for. It's the same with Adobe, the pdf format is very mature, but they keep adding features for modifying a pdf even though it's not really ment to be because pdf is an end format. All to keep the customer happy.
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yoshi314
l33t
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 850
Location: PL
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| I wrote: | | just to break a quarrel in a funny way |
so that we can get back to longhorn/vista we are supposed to talk about 
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NTT
Apprentice
Joined: 26 Dec 2002
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I keep hearing about this Longhorn/Vista thing for sooo long now without actually seeing anything but flackey betas and screenshots - this thing must be obsolete before it even hits the street sometime in the distant future. Guess if its going to follow Windows ME down to nowhereland. |
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jshanab
Guru
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 359
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:46 pm Post subject: killer apps |
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Applications and standards dictate user choices.
First we establish open standards for file systems and data formats, oh wait, we already have that.
Then we get more and better applications to attract/keep users.
I have 6 computers, unfortunantly there is one area and program that I must reboot into windows for, Solidworks. There isn't even a app-cad category in portage DB.
How do we couteract the microsoft ubiqity myth and get developers to release versions for linux with same commitment? Then people will choose based on the OS not what is available for the OS. We could volunteer as a organization to sign no-disclouser agreements to get the source code and offer to freely do the recompile work for them. "They probably are saying we use .net and that is what our developers know..., besides 90% use microsoft anyway" (The other ubiqity myth)
When I encounter a web page with microsoft specific stuff in it, I avoid or if it is worth my time, point it out to them. I usually get the standard "everyone else uses microsoft that accesses our site" After pointing out that is because the rest of the people don't bother coming back, I point out that if they have designed a web page for a specific browser or OS that they have missed the entire point of the internet.
Can the same can be said about software developers ????
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ghidra: 2.6.18-gentoo-r3 x86_64 AMD64 with xfce4 across 2 monitors; reiserfs on LVM2
hamal: Gentoo 2.6.16-gentoo-r4, athlonxp 1600 with gnome,reiserfs, LVM2.
jeffnote Gentoo 2.6.20-suspend2-r?, IBM T22
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Q-collective
Advocate
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 2071
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| southsider wrote: | WINE doesn't emulate the Windows API, it implements it.
Now knock it off you two before I tell your parents you've been fighting again. |
There's simply no reasoning him..
Anyway, back on topic again?
Linux on the desktop will take a few more years since:
1. Xorg sucks: macosx and windows vista will run nice eyecandy on the gpu, where it belongs, xorg will need a few more years to get there. On the other hand, xorg is still a moloch: drivers are still not in the kernel where they belong.
2. OpenOffice.org sucks: the only viable office suite (no, don't get me started on Gnome-office or Koffice..)is way too bloated: 40+ seconds startup time on a 2400+ cpu with 1G on ram is not acceptable. And OOo still needs serious work ironing all the bugs out.
3. Things still don't Just Work: we are getting there will hal and dbus and stuff, but I still can't plugin my printer (a lexmark) and get linux just seeing it (yes, I think cups should be /dev/null'ed and replaced by hal/dbus/kernel).
4. Alternatives are not always that great: look at gaim for example: still no webcam, sucky filetransfers (in msn, don't care a lot about others) and no skinning support. No wonder we are laughed at by the rest of the world.
5. Wine still hasn't reached 1.0: 12 years and going, they only very recently reached beta stage, I guess a 1.0 will be released in 2375.
So, all in all, vista isn't that revolutionary, but then again, are we? |
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Lepaca Kliffoth
l33t
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 737
Location: Florence, Italy
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Q-collective wrote: |
1. Xorg sucks: macosx and windows vista will run nice eyecandy on the gpu, where it belongs, xorg will need a few more years to get there. On the other hand, xorg is still a moloch: drivers are still not in the kernel where they belong. |
Wait, aren't DRM and AGP drivers in the kernel??
| Q-collective wrote: | | 2. OpenOffice.org sucks: the only viable office suite (no, don't get me started on Gnome-office or Koffice..)is way too bloated: 40+ seconds startup time on a 2400+ cpu with 1G on ram is not acceptable. And OOo still needs serious work ironing all the bugs out. |
The one time I ran Koffice I wanted to take my eyes out of my skull and smash them on the floor; however it is even more complete than OOo and at some point in the future will be good enough if they keep improving it. As it is now it sucks, though.
However the real problem is all the users who are convinced they need advanced office features. Most ppl would be happy with abiword and gnumeric...
| Q-collective wrote: |
4. Alternatives are not always that great: look at gaim for example: still no webcam, sucky filetransfers (in msn, don't care a lot about others) and no skinning support. No wonder we are laughed at by the rest of the world. |
KDE rulez 
| Q-collective wrote: | | 5. Wine still hasn't reached 1.0: 12 years and going, they only very recently reached beta stage, I guess a 1.0 will be released in 2375. |
Wall that's not really the Wine guys' fault, is it? Implementing Win32 must be hell ^^ We should just give up on the idea of running windows apps, it's too short-sighted; we should instead fill the blanks developing alternatives. I'm not saying the wine guys should stop, just that they're not really the solution to our problems.[/quote]
| Q-collective wrote: | | So, all in all, vista isn't that revolutionary, but then again, are we? |
Hey don't underestimate the fact we can run our OS without antiviruses and antispyware etc etc. I wish someone would develop the ultimate protection system that makes it impossible to run pirated software, two days and everyone would be running Linux or searching for a second job to pay all the license fees.
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Q-collective
Advocate
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 2071
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Lepaca Kliffoth wrote: | | Q-collective wrote: |
1. Xorg sucks: macosx and windows vista will run nice eyecandy on the gpu, where it belongs, xorg will need a few more years to get there. On the other hand, xorg is still a moloch: drivers are still not in the kernel where they belong. |
Wait, aren't DRM and AGP drivers in the kernel?? |
Yes, but Mesa isn't
| Quote: | | Q-collective wrote: | | 2. OpenOffice.org sucks: the only viable office suite (no, don't get me started on Gnome-office or Koffice..)is way too bloated: 40+ seconds startup time on a 2400+ cpu with 1G on ram is not acceptable. And OOo still needs serious work ironing all the bugs out. |
The one time I ran Koffice I wanted to take my eyes out of my skull and smash them on the floor; however it is even more complete than OOo and at some point in the future will be good enough if they keep improving it. As it is now it sucks, though.
However the real problem is all the users who are convinced they need advanced office features. Most ppl would be happy with abiword and gnumeric... |
And there are a lot of office workers (no, people that work in an office) that do use a lot of those "advanced" ms office features like presentation, databases and such.
| Quote: | | Q-collective wrote: |
4. Alternatives are not always that great: look at gaim for example: still no webcam, sucky filetransfers (in msn, don't care a lot about others) and no skinning support. No wonder we are laughed at by the rest of the world. |
KDE rulez |
What kde IM comes with webcam support, decent filetransers and skinning? 
| Quote: | | Q-collective wrote: | | 5. Wine still hasn't reached 1.0: 12 years and going, they only very recently reached beta stage, I guess a 1.0 will be released in 2375. |
Wall that's not really the Wine guys' fault, is it? Implementing Win32 must be hell ^^ We should just give up on the idea of running windows apps, it's too short-sighted; we should instead fill the blanks developing alternatives. I'm not saying the wine guys should stop, just that they're not really the solution to our problems. |
Maybe not, but they do give the opensource world a bigger momentum since more people would be using it. And Winehq actually *is* making some decent progress these days.
| Quote: | | Q-collective wrote: | | So, all in all, vista isn't that revolutionary, but then again, are we? |
Hey don't underestimate the fact we can run our OS without antiviruses and antispyware etc etc. |
Yes, we cloned Unix very well.
| Quote: | | I wish someone would develop the ultimate protection system that makes it impossible to run pirated software, two days and everyone would be running Linux or searching for a second job to pay all the license fees. |
I still pray for that day, and I'm an atheist |
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codergeek42
Bodhisattva
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 5142
Location: Anaheim, CA (USA)
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:50 am Post subject: |
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Off-topic discussion split to WINE: Emulator or Not?
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Matteo Azzali
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1133
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Q-collective wrote: |
Linux on the desktop will take a few more years since:
1. Xorg sucks: macosx and windows vista will run nice eyecandy on the gpu, where it belongs, xorg will need a few more years to get there. On the other hand, xorg is still a moloch: drivers are still not in the kernel where they belong.
|
Kcompmgr is using accelerated eyecandies.... they are nice but just eyecandies. Mesa drivers in the kernel??? nvidia and ati glx modules
are there, I can't see the point to weighten the kernel with mesa drivers (for opengl console terminals /ncurse programs???)
| Q-collective wrote: |
2. OpenOffice.org sucks: the only viable office suite (no, don't get me started on Gnome-office or Koffice..)is way too bloated: 40+ seconds startup time on a 2400+ cpu with 1G on ram is not acceptable. And OOo still needs serious work ironing all the bugs out.
|
Here (3100+ sempron, 512 Mb PC2700 ram) openoffice starts in 25 seconds while emerging (100% cpu used). If you really need 40
seconds to start it maybe you have something misconfigured in your system. Ah, my openoffice is openoffice-bin, so not the best
optimization.
| Q-collective wrote: |
3. Things still don't Just Work: we are getting there will hal and dbus and stuff, but I still can't plugin my printer (a lexmark) and get linux just seeing it (yes, I think cups should be /dev/null'ed and replaced by hal/dbus/kernel).
|
Hardware drivers for cheapest hardware still are a pain. That's true and will stay that until someone doesn't start a project similar to
portage but for hardware. Even at best conditions, if lexmark doesn't help in some way disclosing part of their hardware specs,
linux users will need to avoid crappy-drivers lexmarks hardware.
| Q-collective wrote: |
4. Alternatives are not always that great: look at gaim for example: still no webcam, sucky filetransfers (in msn, don't care a lot about others) and no skinning support. No wonder we are laughed at by the rest of the world.
|
Webcam is relatively new programming territory(in linux), if u want support now do it yourself and share.Lots of peoples complaint
about this or that missing, but open-source isn't just "you can have os and apps for free" is "you can have os and apps for free, do your
part helping community and you can expect others will do the same for you" (There isn't Santa-Claus programming open-source).
We are laughed by the rest of what world? Win users that need to rescan their system every week for trojan/spyware/malware/virus or
Mac users that have less software than us, need to pay it almost all, and payd a lot of bucks for obsolete hardware?
| Q-collective wrote: |
5. Wine still hasn't reached 1.0: 12 years and going, they only very recently reached beta stage, I guess a 1.0 will be released in 2375.
|
Wine is almost complex as porting an OS (of which you don't have the full documentation) inside another OS. Ops, wine IS that. So
is the most ambitious open-source project of every time.... My grandsoon will benefit that and thank me and my generation, I hope.
| Q-collective wrote: |
So, all in all, vista isn't that revolutionary, but then again, are we? |
Well, I'm the first saying that linux needs more work to be the best OS (first of all GUI for hardware setup, finished GUI for emerge,
some artist application with an artist-oriented interface and even improved tools....).
Still Vista is copying Linux. Where? Just 2 examples:
a) new feature of vista: users will run vista without privileges and will gain them putting the password inside a dialog
(kdesu does that by ages, before there was su).
b) new feature of vista: system will not need to be restarted after upgrading an application (this is in linux by mesozohic era).
Even at that condition, we can't waste precious (and rare, since a lot of users are thinking Santa-Claus will write the driver for their
hardware) programmers-time trying to write lexmark drivers from zero. Crappy producer's hardware will not be supported until:
a) They release some specs or some source code of their drivers.
b) The end of times
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Every day a new distro comes to birth. Every day a distro "eats" another.
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Lepaca Kliffoth
l33t
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 737
Location: Florence, Italy
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Since codergeek screwed up, I'm putting back here my post in answer to Q-Collective:
| Q-collective wrote: | | And there are a lot of office workers (no, people that work in an office) that do use a lot of those "advanced" ms office features like presentation, databases and such. |
Well, you're right. Linux adoption started from the servers and is slowly entering the enterprises, so it makes sense to have an MS Office clone right now even if home users don't really need it. As it is now Linux can't really be adopted in the enterprise because of no office and no exchange and can't be adopted by normal users because it isn't user-friendly enough, this situation sucks 
| Q-collective wrote: | | What kde IM comes with webcam support, decent filetransers and skinning? |
Uhm I'm sure there's at least one app that starts with a "k" and has all of that. It's that nobody looked hard enough in the jungle of KDE source code Seriously, Kopete has webcam support and transfers files without any problem (MSN). I don't know, maybe there are some reasons why it doesn't work for someone or even for a lot of people but it's two days that I'm throwing wallpapers to a friend of mine and the transfers have always succeeded. I wish I had a webcam to test video support too.
| Q-collective wrote: | | Yes, we cloned Unix very well. |
Hey even if invulnerability to malware is as old as Unix that doesn't mean it can't be a novelty to 99% of PC users
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Matteo Azzali
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1133
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Q-collective
Advocate
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 2071
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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First of all: you missed my point entirely: I wasn't flaming at the Linux world, I'm running Linux for three years now of which two exclusively. I love it. I just pointed out why GNU/Linux won't take over the world in the next few years.
| Matteo Azzali wrote: | | Q-collective wrote: |
Linux on the desktop will take a few more years since:
1. Xorg sucks: macosx and windows vista will run nice eyecandy on the gpu, where it belongs, xorg will need a few more years to get there. On the other hand, xorg is still a moloch: drivers are still not in the kernel where they belong.
|
Kcompmgr is using accelerated eyecandies.... they are nice but just eyecandies. Mesa drivers in the kernel??? nvidia and ati glx modules
are there, I can't see the point to weighten the kernel with mesa drivers (for opengl console terminals /ncurse programs???) |
Drivers don't belong in userspace, but in the kernel. I think that would be obvious because drivers are platform specific (you can't even just run liux drivers on *bsd, let alone in stuff like windows).
| Quote: | | Q-collective wrote: |
2. OpenOffice.org sucks: the only viable office suite (no, don't get me started on Gnome-office or Koffice..)is way too bloated: 40+ seconds startup time on a 2400+ cpu with 1G on ram is not acceptable. And OOo still needs serious work ironing all the bugs out.
|
Here (3100+ sempron, 512 Mb PC2700 ram) openoffice starts in 25 seconds while emerging (100% cpu used). If you really need 40
seconds to start it maybe you have something misconfigured in your system. |
Wrong assumption: my configuration is pretty standard, no --omg-cflags here. I even switched off stuff like java (manually, in openoffice, not in portage).
Besides, 25 seconds load time on a amd 3100+ is not fast at all. The notion you make that you load it under 100% cpu time is pretty much worthless aswell (with all due respect) because I load my openoffice in the same 40 sec anytime because my portage niceness has been set to 15
| Quote: | | Ah, my openoffice is openoffice-bin, so not the best optimization. |
Doesn't matter at all. You may not know it, but speed optimisations are zero when you compile Gentoo on a machine that is faster then ~1GHz. I only use Gentoo because of it's flexibility.
| Q-collective wrote: | | Quote: |
3. Things still don't Just Work: we are getting there will hal and dbus and stuff, but I still can't plugin my printer (a lexmark) and get linux just seeing it (yes, I think cups should be /dev/null'ed and replaced by hal/dbus/kernel).
|
Hardware drivers for cheapest hardware still are a pain. That's true and will stay that until someone doesn't start a project similar to portage but for hardware. Even at best conditions, if lexmark doesn't help in some way disclosing part of their hardware specs, linux users will need to avoid crappy-drivers lexmarks hardware. |
Yeah, classic argument, well known to me. Still doesn't change the fact that this is not acceptable to the windows users who'd like to try linux.
| Quote: | | Q-collective wrote: |
4. Alternatives are not always that great: look at gaim for example: still no webcam, sucky filetransfers (in msn, don't care a lot about others) and no skinning support. No wonder we are laughed at by the rest of the world.
|
Webcam is relatively new programming territory(in linux), if u want support now do it yourself and share.Lots of peoples complaint about this or that missing, but open-source isn't just "you can have os and apps for free" is "you can have os and apps for free, do your part helping community and you can expect others will do the same for you" (There isn't Santa-Claus programming open-source). |
I know
| Quote: | We are laughed by the rest of what world? Win users that need to rescan their system every week for trojan/spyware/malware/virus or
Mac users that have less software than us, need to pay it almost all, and payd a lot of bucks for obsolete hardware? |
Yes, but the point being: why would one switch from a non-perfect but very well known environment to a non-perfect but a totally unknown environment?
| Quote: | | Q-collective wrote: |
5. Wine still hasn't reached 1.0: 12 years and going, they only very recently reached beta stage, I guess a 1.0 will be released in 2375.
|
Wine is almost complex as porting an OS (of which you don't have the full documentation) inside another OS. Ops, wine IS that. So is the most ambitious open-source project of every time.... My grandsoon will benefit that and thank me and my generation, I hope. |
Yes, very complex, I know. And quite funny remark, you seem to have a bit of sarcasm afterall
| Quote: | | Q-collective wrote: |
So, all in all, vista isn't that revolutionary, but then again, are we? |
Well, I'm the first saying that linux needs more work to be the best OS (first of all GUI for hardware setup, finished GUI for emerge, some artist application with an artist-oriented interface and even improved tools....). |
Imho, the outer GUI isn't the big problem in the GNU/Linux world, I think the problem more lies in the stuff behind it (pnp, xorg, etc)
| Quote: | | Still Vista is copying Linux. Where? Just 2 examples: |
Old news.
| Quote: | Even at that condition, we can't waste precious (and rare, since a lot of users are thinking Santa-Claus will write the driver for their hardware) programmers-time trying to write lexmark drivers from zero. Crappy producer's hardware will not be supported until:
a) They release some specs or some source code of their drivers.
b) The end of times |
Agreed, and hardware manufacturers won't opensource their hardware until GNU/Linux becomes a serious player on the desktop market, but GNU/Linux growth is seriously stagnated because of the lack of drivers, etc.
Old news. |
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Q-collective
Advocate
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 2071
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Can't find my response anymore, but here goes (again )
| Lepaca Kliffoth wrote: | Since codergeek screwed up, I'm putting back here my post in answer to Q-Collective:
| Q-collective wrote: | | And there are a lot of office workers (no, people that work in an office) that do use a lot of those "advanced" ms office features like presentation, databases and such. |
Well, you're right. Linux adoption started from the servers and is slowly entering the enterprises, so it makes sense to have an MS Office clone right now even if home users don't really need it. As it is now Linux can't really be adopted in the enterprise because of no office and no exchange and can't be adopted by normal users because it isn't user-friendly enough, this situation sucks |
Yeah, openoffice development still takes a while before it is getting reasonable. About Koffice I can say the same thing: they too have a lack of developers and development is just not going fast enough...
I can understand the reasons why the Koffice devs or the Gnome-Office devs do their own thing, but imho it makes sense to just code the code you already have right.
Oh well
| Quote: | | Q-collective wrote: | | What kde IM comes with webcam support, decent filetransers and skinning? |
Uhm I'm sure there's at least one app that starts with a "k" and has all of that. It's that nobody looked hard enough in the jungle of KDE source code Seriously, Kopete has webcam support and transfers files without any problem (MSN). I don't know, maybe there are some reasons why it doesn't work for someone or even for a lot of people but it's two days that I'm throwing wallpapers to a friend of mine and the transfers have always succeeded. I wish I had a webcam to test video support too. |
Yeah, kopete is quote interesting, but default also quite ugly, will have to play with it some more |
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codergeek42
Bodhisattva
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 5142
Location: Anaheim, CA (USA)
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Q-collective wrote: | | Drivers don't belong in userspace, but in the kernel. I think that would be obvious because drivers are platform specific (you can't even just run liux drivers on *bsd, let alone in stuff like windows). |
Drivers are in the kernel. However, those are useless without userland tools (aka Mesa's DRI backend) to actually make use of those drivers' capabilities.
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Q-collective
Advocate
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 2071
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| codergeek42 wrote: | | Q-collective wrote: | | Drivers don't belong in userspace, but in the kernel. I think that would be obvious because drivers are platform specific (you can't even just run liux drivers on *bsd, let alone in stuff like windows). |
Drivers are in the kernel. However, those are useless without userland tools (aka Mesa's DRI backend) to actually make use of those drivers' capabilities. |
Wow, I almost didn't recognized you, with your new avatar
Anyway, I think you're quite right though. |
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lysergicacid
Guru
Joined: 25 Nov 2003
Posts: 352
Location: The Universe,Virgo Super Cluster,Milky Way,Earth
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| windows is good for one thing and that games and only cause the games manufacturers dont care enough about linux yet, otherwise tho what a bag of **** who cares what new windows they come out with and what new ideas (that they steal from other os's), plain and simply put linux will allways be streets ahead. and with linux U have the CHOICE cant say windows ever seemed to give me any choice on wot it did to my computer. (rant over) |
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Matteo Azzali
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1133
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| Q-collective wrote: |
Wrong assumption: my configuration is pretty standard, no --omg-cflags here. I even switched off stuff like java (manually, in openoffice, not in portage).
Besides, 25 seconds load time on a amd 3100+ is not fast at all. The notion you make that you load it under 100% cpu time is pretty much worthless aswell (with all due respect) because I load my openoffice in the same 40 sec anytime because my portage niceness has been set to 15
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Ok, you are right about my test. But I just opened ooword2 in 15-16 seconds (nothing else running) on 3100+ sempron, 333Mhz 512 MB
of ram.... Something should be screwed in your configuration. (your system should take no more than 25 secs to open)
| Q-collective wrote: |
Yeah, classic argument, well known to me. Still doesn't change the fact that this is not acceptable to the windows users who'd like to try linux.
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Well, send a complaining mail to Lexmark to have disclosed at least the hardware specs, lots of other manufacturer did that.
| Q-collective wrote: |
Yes, but the point being: why would one switch from a non-perfect but very well known environment to a non-perfect but a totally unknown environment?
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With internet and community well-known or unknown aren't anymore that important,IMHO, and there are lots of points to switch
expecially for non-gamers.
| Q-collective wrote: |
| Quote: | Even at that condition, we can't waste precious (and rare, since a lot of users are thinking Santa-Claus will write the driver for their hardware) programmers-time trying to write lexmark drivers from zero. Crappy producer's hardware will not be supported until:
a) They release some specs or some source code of their drivers.
b) The end of times |
Agreed, and hardware manufacturers won't opensource their hardware until GNU/Linux becomes a serious player on the desktop market, but GNU/Linux growth is seriously stagnated because of the lack of drivers, etc.
Old news. |
IMHO is stagned cause most of users think "why should I learn to use a computer when I can use a "visual SO" and don't learn anything?"
That's why I think GUI is a priority, hardware issues there are, but we can't do anything (except for some "portage/p2p like" system
to have hint & tips, and maybe one day automate configuration: if one have success configuring, all the rest of the world can easily follow).
We can do nothing (or we should do too much) to improve drivers without specs, trying to be constructive is better to look somewhere
else and improve what we can easily.
Maybe I'm wrong, but pnp working well here, X too, maybe is just cause I use ~x86, but seems to me that major shame of linux
is that's lacking/scaring artists, since you can do about ALL what u do with Win & Mac, but you'll need much more time.
And we need artist to give linux the aspect to attract more peoples (it's sad, but attraction is 90% look, at the end.....)
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Q-collective
Advocate
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 2071
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| Matteo Azzali wrote: | | Maybe I'm wrong, but pnp working well here |
Yes, what is included is working well
Yeah, xorg7 is nice. But still using a 20+ year old infrastructure, that's the problem with xorg.
| Quote: | | maybe is just cause I use ~x86, but seems to me that major shame of linux is that's lacking/scaring artists, since you can do about ALL what u do with Win & Mac, but you'll need much more time. |
Indeed, but gui is only a small part of the problem, imho.
| Quote: | | And we need artist to give linux the aspect to attract more peoples (it's sad, but attraction is 90% look, at the end.....) |
Looks are actually quite nice these days I think: both KDE and Gnome a nice looking by default and if e17 ever gets released one day, it will totally rule.
Maybe the installer would be nice, and a gui for writing ebuilds would rule aswell, so what is keeping you from writing those? |
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Matteo Azzali
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1133
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Q-collective wrote: |
Maybe the installer would be nice, and a gui for writing ebuilds would rule aswell, so what is keeping you from writing those? |
That's far beyond my capabilities, I'm starting practicing with kommander & scripts, a pair of GUI I have done are almost finished,
but I want to realease 3-4 together cause kommander dependancy is something most users may not want. (so releasing together
will change more minds)
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Every day a new distro comes to birth. Every day a distro "eats" another.
If you're born distro, no matter what, start to run.
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Lepaca Kliffoth
l33t
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 737
Location: Florence, Italy
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Q-collective wrote: | | Yeah, kopete is quote interesting, but default also quite ugly, will have to play with it some more |
By default KDE is ugly, all of it. In 3.5 the messages in kopete's chat windows are much prettier than they were in 3.4, though.
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Matteo Azzali
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1133
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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gnome isn't much better in look, at start....... (my 2 cents)
However, here's the ebuild for kopetedesklist (eyecandy plugin for kopete). Need some tweakings for now
[edit]: finished, tested working, enjoy!
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Every day a new distro comes to birth. Every day a distro "eats" another.
If you're born distro, no matter what, start to run.
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roguetech
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 82
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:53 pm Post subject: I agree |
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| At first it seems any Window manager or Desktop Enviroment isn't that pretty, I remember when I used to hate gnome cause it looked ugly and used KDE exclusively, Now I use gnome with some nice skinning (I will post screen shots when I can) Gnome is my favorite DE for general my workstation, I have a friend who likes KDE an my roomate uses fluxbox and Xfce for older systems. an As for OpenOffice 2.0 I have it boot up in 20 seconds, on a AMD 2200+ 1Gb ram. As long as you can tweak your GUI to whatever you want its kool, I remeber when My brother got me into linux a few years ago I used KDE an he used Gnome, now we switched haha oh well... I like choice It rocks! |
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trevormtb
n00b
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:03 am Post subject: |
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As someone mentioned earlier:
GAMES are the real downfall of linux in my experience.
Much of everything else can either be set up with forums or replaced with open source software.
Of course, I guess this thread is more about the average user, who considers plugging in a usb scanner in windows very high tech. |
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