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sargek
Apprentice
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 170
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: Boot-up speed |
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| slonocode wrote: | | sargek wrote: |
A paradigm shift in the attitudes of users is going to have to take place before people are going to "flock" to GNU/Linux. People are going to have get used to the idea of not running as the administrator - this is a big hurdle to overcome. |
I don't really see this as a hurdle to overcome. All it really means for most is that they will have to type the root password when it comes to installing software or changing system settings. I don't even think people would think twice about in windows if it actually worked.
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The Free/Open Source Software (FOSS) issue may be an attractor, but the word needs to be spread about this. I lecture at a local community college on FOSS, and am amazed at the lack of knowledge about FOSS.
The GNU/Linux community has grown tremendously in the past 5 years. I don't think emulating the worst OS ever written is really a good idea. I think changing the attitudes of the userbase is better. |
Whatever you think about the windows platform there are things worth emulating. One of them is user interface design. Mostly with applications. It's that last 10-20% of code needed to make the UI complete and intuitive. It's the most tedious but most neccessary for widespread adoption. The fun part of coding is solving the problem...it gets tedious figuring out how to present everything to a less geeky person. I don't know...is this a solvable situation? |
Perhaps I mis-spoke: not necessarily a hurdle to overcome, and you are probably right - people will get used to it eventually. Heck, us GNU/Linux users do it everyday...
As for emulating windoze, I'll have to disagree, but that's the beauty of these forums, we can all express our opinions! I hate the UI of windoze. It is boring, cludgy, resource inefficient, and not intuitive, for me anyway. I do like the improvements in the XP start menu, though, but I always turn off the XP "style" for the desktop because it hides everything from the user, and I can never find any of the tools I need to adjust system settings.
Anyway, as you can tell, I am not a fan of M$ at all. I will never give them any money again, unless I am forced to. I am quite happy sticking to my free, efficient, secure system. 
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curtis119
Bodhisattva
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 2160
Location: Toledo, Ohio,USA, North America, Earth, SOL System, Milky Way, The Universe, The Cosmos, and Beyond.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| fourhead wrote: | What I'd personally like to be improved in Linux (not necessarily to "compete" with Longhorn, but just in general):
A complete OpenGL/SVG-driven desktop. If I could code, I'd do it this way. Everything, from windows to text to icons, would be SVG. No more bitmaps!!  The X server would in fact be an OpenGL server, and - as an example - a KDE or Gnome theme or window style would contain SVGs that describe the look of everything - window bars, buttons, controls etc. Everything would be nicely resizeable - the graphics hardware would render the whole desktop.
Full and complete support for UTF-8. Honestly, I HATE those charset stuff. Most of you American users will propably not care much about that, but for us who have strange letters like ä, ö, ü or ß this is really crap! Until today there's no way for me to name the Trashcan "Mülleimer" in Squirrelmail because it won't deal with anything else than ASCII. We should do it like SkyOS is doing it: UTF-8 is the ONLY ONE charset, there's nothing else, UTF-16 supports ALL characters needed and everybody would be happy! I know this would be very problematic, since many system (think of e-mail) still are made for ASCII, but damn, there has to be progress in this area!
A common syntax for config files: No, I don't want a GUI tool or a registry, but I think it would be a major improvement if all (it won't be possible for all of them probably) config files would have a common syntax. Personally, I very much like the syntax of smb.conf. It's simple, straight-forward, easily readable and logic.
Last but not least - I might get a lot of bad responses for this - don't fork so much! Don't make everything 10 or 20 times! I know, it's good to have choices and I don't mean in no way that we should put KDE and Gnome, KOrganizer & Evolution, Kopete & Gaim together and let there only be one app for each purpose. But I think there are areas where it is just too extreme, where you have 10 projects doing basically the same, but all of them are more or less stalled because they all don't have enough coders. In such a case - and only in such a case - wouldn't it be better if they all sit down together and create ONE project that actually gets finished in the near future?
My last wish goes out to KDE: I LOVE KDE, I use it every day, but there's one thing I don't like: It's sometimes over-featurized. ShowImg as an example has - in it's standard configuration - 15!! toolbar buttons. This is way to much. A toolbar is for the most common used actions, it's not a replacement for the menu bar. Sometimes, I look at Gnome and think - oh how much beautiful easy all those programs look. Another example is Beagle - the Gnome search tool - against KAT, the KDE search tool. Beagle wins hands-down in usability aspects. I think this should in general be a much more important topic!
Tom |
Gnome is already using Cairo as it's backend and Cairo can use Glitz. Together, Cairo and Glitz IS A COMPLETLY OPENGL, HARDWARE ACCELLERATED DESKTOP. Right now, today, this very instant, I am running it right now. It's still not completly implemented in the themes and stuff but it IS being done and the first step, cairo and glitz, are already useable.
E17 is also capable of using openGL or other forms of hardware acceleration but they haven't worked the bugs out yet (it's still beta at the moment).
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/utf-8.xml <-- that's pretty much all I need to say about utf-8
hmmm common syntax for config files? That would take every single FOSS project agreeing to that format. Not sure it's possible. But in the meantime all of them pretty much use the same basic layout in the /etc config files. No, they aren't all exactly the same but that's what "man <name-of-app.config>" is for.
Forking is a Good Thing(tm), really it is. I'm not pulling your leg, honestly. Most of the exciting stuff happens in the forks. Someone forks and comes up with some ultra cool new feature/api/GUI/etc... and then the original project either adopts that idea and folds the code back in or else everyone stops using it and starts using the new forked version. Think XFree86 ---> Xorg for example. Think of forks as ummmmm a playground for devs to experiment with new ideas. Sometimes the idea takes off ... sometimes it doesn't.
As to KDE, I can only give you 2 answers to that:
1. Wait for kde4, it's going to fucking ROCK!
2. Switch to Gnome (this is what I would do but of course, I have been a hard core Gnome user for almost a decade).
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Gentoo: it's like wiping your ass with silk. |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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I have been having a kinda-counter arguement over at [H]ardforum abt longhorn
Big windows base over there and I have been countering all their "ooo Vista has this" arguements
Basically pretty much everything Vista is saying it will come with (bar WinFX since that is more a windows API) Linux has now in some form or another.
What we need to do (we as in linux coders) is really tidy the code up to make sure that all these nice things (Glitz is what I looking forward to playing with) are nice and tight.
There are two main problems then that face Linux vs Vista
1) GAMES: Linux needs games and top named games if it is to really lure ppl to it
2) need to lure ppl to it
So how are these two (or 1 1/2 things) things gonna get done?
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| Quote: | | Removed by Chiitoo |
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Matteo Azzali
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1133
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: |
1) GAMES: Linux needs games and top named games if it is to really lure ppl to it
2) need to lure ppl to it
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I agree.... but:
1) The lack of good games in linux isn't anymore lack of good game-programmers,
but lack of good artists with a lot of time to spend on (cause, let me say this,
linux conent creation apps can do almost everything but too much times they need
a lot more passages than apps for win/mac ie: blender interface that rely on a lot
of keyboard shortcuts and not on "graphical" buttons/menu, inkscape that lacks of
easy-to-use soft shadow and perpective transform, etc.etc.). Good 3D engines
ARE on linux (one for all: OGRE, just go to see the projects being developed..)
2) To get the masses linux needs more GUI frontends, more easy tools, at least
a real app-centic firewall, etc.etc. Why? cause masses ARE and want to stay
computer-illiterates. Knoppix and some "more graphical" distros are doin a lot,
in this way... (yes, KDE is doin also a lot, with service menus, lots of easy apps,
etc.etc.)
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Every day a new distro comes to birth. Every day a distro "eats" another.
If you're born distro, no matter what, start to run.
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Shadow Skill
Veteran
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1023
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Gnome is already using Cairo as it's backend and Cairo can use Glitz. Together, Cairo and Glitz IS A COMPLETLY OPENGL, HARDWARE ACCELLERATED DESKTOP. Right now, today, this very instant, I am running it right now. It's still not completly implemented in the themes and stuff but it IS being done and the first step, cairo and glitz, are already useable. |
I'll just say this until I am no longer punished for owning an ATI card, Linux does not have support for hardware accelerated desktop environments. You can't really claim to have this cool new [old] feature if half of the GFX market is left out not because the hardware is physically lacking but because the drivers are total crap. I'm also tired of the exscuse that it is the manufacturer's fault things suck right now for ATI owners, yea they make the cards but the people who make Linux have to make Linux appealing to a larger base of people so ATI will put forth a better effort with their drivers. The power to draw in more people is in Linux's court if the OS is relatively easy for normal human beings [IE almost no one who currently is into Linux at this point.] to use for more than just web browsing, chatting and email [Let's face it Windows95 is probably still suitable for those tasks.] then Linux will become something that you can market to the mainstream populace. It's only when that happens that the companies that make the hardware will really begin to pay attention.
Oh while this is just a general computing thing I think that all projects should try to get someone non-technical to write the documentation because the vast majority of man pages and help files are down right crappy. If you are going to give a command usage example do NOT use abstracts for the love of God!
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Ware wa mutekinari.
Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.
"First there was nothing, so the lord gave us light. There was still nothing, but at least you could see it." |
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Q-collective
Advocate
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 2071
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Shadow Skill wrote: | | I'll just say this until I am no longer punished for owning an ATI card, Linux does not have support for hardware accelerated desktop environments. You can't really claim to have this cool new [old] feature if half of the GFX market is left out not because the hardware is physically lacking but because the drivers are total crap. I'm also tired of the exscuse that it is the manufacturer's fault things suck right now for ATI owners, yea they make the cards but the people who make Linux have to make Linux appealing to a larger base of people so ATI will put forth a better effort with their drivers. |
Clickity
It's already in DRI cvs for quite a while, and you can try it out in Xorg 6.9/7.0 rc0.
Exa is still not working 100% though, and opengl performance (on my 9600xt) is only about 60% of that of the fglrx drivers, but all in all we're getting there and it works. |
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Shadow Skill
Veteran
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1023
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Q-collective wrote: | | Shadow Skill wrote: | | I'll just say this until I am no longer punished for owning an ATI card, Linux does not have support for hardware accelerated desktop environments. You can't really claim to have this cool new [old] feature if half of the GFX market is left out not because the hardware is physically lacking but because the drivers are total crap. I'm also tired of the exscuse that it is the manufacturer's fault things suck right now for ATI owners, yea they make the cards but the people who make Linux have to make Linux appealing to a larger base of people so ATI will put forth a better effort with their drivers. |
Clickity
It's already in DRI cvs for quite a while, and you can try it out in Xorg 6.9/7.0 rc0.
Exa is still not working 100% though, and opengl performance (on my 9600xt) is only about 60% of that of the fglrx drivers, but all in all we're getting there and it works. |
Sounds interesting I will take a stab at the driver on my laptop even though its a 7500 mobility as I currently have no hope with my desktop since I have a PCI-e card.
_________________
Ware wa mutekinari.
Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.
"First there was nothing, so the lord gave us light. There was still nothing, but at least you could see it." |
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VeliuX
n00b
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Washington/Illinois/USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Dont worry about Longhorn, it will be FUD. Just look at some of the reviews of the alpha version which got recently pulled, cause i guess, MS just stiched together a bunch of code from other developers in .net. So they are redoing it, plus WinFS isnt doing to well from what i have been reading. Gentoo is cool as it is, longhorn wont make me switch. Just look at the predicted system specs for it...the damn thing requires you have a very good or very expensive computer to run it.
So dont fret, by the time it comes out we will be in kernel 2.7 maybe even 2.8. Have a little faith . But there is one thing on my wish list that probably wont happen, a "GOOD" program that emulates windows games. We instead of an emulator could have more devs like Loki and make more *nix installers for windows games, that would be cool. Wesnoth kicks butt though.
gentoo pwns windows.
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Kensai
Guru
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 569
Location: Puerto Rico
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Windows has done somethings right and is getting better everyday. They are handling better the security of the OS and making some good eye candy. Still I love Linux and BSD over Windows. Microsoft has done nothing that I can say WOW!. Linux and BSD are acomplishing things that I can say WOW!. Also in windows you don't have freedom and Linux / BSD are about freedom. So I only keep one Slave HDD on my machine with WINXP just because I love Splinter Cell and The Elder Scroll series of games. But I don't enjoy using Windows I don't even have any programs added to it other than firefox not to mention also the lots of anti-spywares apps, all other apps are the defaults it has. Windows does not motivates me to nothing. Linux motivates me to learn and contribute to it. 
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Gentoo: Gigabyte: nFORCE 2: nVIDIA GeForce 6600: AMD Athlon XP 3200+
Leaving the above specs to immortalize the first system I Installed Gentoo on! |
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ruben
Guru
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 462
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Shadow Skill wrote: | | I'll just say this until I am no longer punished for owning an ATI card, Linux does not have support for hardware accelerated desktop environments. You can't really claim to have this cool new [old] feature if half of the GFX market is left out not because the hardware is physically lacking but because the drivers are total crap. I'm also tired of the exscuse that it is the manufacturer's fault things suck right now for ATI owners, yea they make the cards but the people who make Linux have to make Linux appealing to a larger base of people so ATI will put forth a better effort with their drivers. |
Well... you know up front that if you're going to run an "alternative" platform, you better make sure you check the hardware compatibility first. I don't think we should stop advancement because "half of the GFX market" cannot use it, because the manufacturer of their hardware releases crappy drivers.
| Shadow Skill wrote: | | The power to draw in more people is in Linux's court if the OS is relatively easy for normal human beings [IE almost no one who currently is into Linux at this point.] to use for more than just web browsing, chatting and email [Let's face it Windows95 is probably still suitable for those tasks.] then Linux will become something that you can market to the mainstream populace. It's only when that happens that the companies that make the hardware will really begin to pay attention. |
I understand what you mean, but it's a chicken-and-egg problem. And on the other hand... why care about whether linux is popular or not? Why does linux have to have an "answer" to Vista? Well, i guess that increased popularity is a good thing with respect to drivers or ports of commercial applications and games. |
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alistair
Retired Dev
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 869
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:36 am Post subject: |
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If linux continues to try play catchup to windows then it will always will be. I believe that linux is at (or at least very close) to a stage where we can go. Now what is the best way of doing this, that and the other thing.
Only then will linux beat microsoft.
ps. This is making a big assumption that u can measure who is beating who |
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Shadow Skill
Veteran
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1023
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Well... you know up front that if you're going to run an "alternative" platform, you better make sure you check the hardware compatibility first. I don't think we should stop advancement because "half of the GFX market" cannot use it, because the manufacturer of their hardware releases crappy drivers. |
This is what I am talking about its not my fault I do not happen to own an nvidia card nor should I be expected to dump hardware unless I am changing architectures or it is something non critical to the over all function of a computer like a digital camera. X has to be able to talk to the hardware without the drivers directly from the manufacturer. It does no good to say "Oh well we [Linux] had this or that first" if the support is not really good, and the second or third guy to come out with said feature has a better implementation. I read somewhere that the reason that ATI doesn't support the options nessecary for the composite functionality of newer X releases is that they are waiting for the X developers to consider the feature stable.
The point I'm trying to make is that the Linux community needs to quit claiming victory with this particular aspect of GUI's since the support for the feature only includes half of the GPU market. I can enable alpha transparency in Windows with very little effort on my part with my current hardware which tells me that Windows itself has better support for alpha transparency at this point. So in that respect Linux is way behind if we are bringing up alpha transparency and 3d acceleration in response to "keeping up with Longhorn." I am not sure about this but I think Windows XP and possible windows 2000 have 3d acceleration capable GUI's judging from the fact that most of the time when I read about requirements for things that enable alpha transparency I always see Windows 2000 and XP only. Assuming that Windows and the X window system have a simillar requirement to enable these features I would say that Windows has been ahead for quite some time.
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Ware wa mutekinari.
Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.
"First there was nothing, so the lord gave us light. There was still nothing, but at least you could see it." |
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Spiritmage
n00b
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 65
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:13 am Post subject: Concerning Microsoft |
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| The whole idea of conforming to microsoft's "beauty" is wrong. Transparent windows psshhh who needs it. Gates only wishes he could come close to matching the beauty of e17. Linux, in my opinion is definately destroying microsoft in all but 1 field... GIVEN this field is probably the most important to enticing new users to turn away from paying for an operating system when they can get a superior one for free. this is USER FRIENDLINESS!!!!! It is foolish to pretend linux is anywhere close to as user friendly as windows. While everything is documented and there are tutorials all over the place, how many people who are already skeptical about using a new OS are going to spend the time to learn how from docs, when they can get the same effect in a matter of seconds in windows. This is a major thorn in linux's side, especially gentoo. It might be a nice alternative for gentoo to offer a novice distro with a "pretty install GUI" ... much more like Fedora, although keeping portage because portage is the best thing ever invented |
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Spiritmage
n00b
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 65
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:15 am Post subject: PS |
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Oh yah PS... my hunch:
Longhorn ----> Next generation of Windows ME type failure (well maybe not quite as bad) |
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ruben
Guru
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 462
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| Shadow Skill wrote: | | This is what I am talking about its not my fault I do not happen to own an nvidia card nor should I be expected to dump hardware unless I am changing architectures or it is something non critical to the over all function of a computer like a digital camera. X has to be able to talk to the hardware without the drivers directly from the manufacturer. It does no good to say "Oh well we [Linux] had this or that first" if the support is not really good, and the second or third guy to come out with said feature has a better implementation. I read somewhere that the reason that ATI doesn't support the options nessecary for the composite functionality of newer X releases is that they are waiting for the X developers to consider the feature stable. |
I do not agree with you. First, it matters as much to me whether i have good 3d drivers or whether i can access my digital camera. I don't think that the composite functionality is critical to the overall functionality of a computer, btw. Neither do i think that most things which are typically used to "show off" technical superiority are critical. Second, you say "...and the second or third guy to come out with said feature has a better implementation." I believe this is not the case here. The implementation does rely however on support from the hardware driver AFAIK. As for what you read about ATI... i read that they have very few developers working on the linux drivers, because linux is just a minority. Only when they see that linux market share is more important to them, they will dedicate more manpower to linux drivers. But i'm afraid that won't happen with the current state of their drivers.
Really, this is just a driver problem. And a crappy driver does not mean that the design and implementation of the composite functionality is inferior. These are 2 seperate things. You have any idea how much work it costs to reverse engineer how a certain 3d card works and to write drivers for that without cooperation whatsoever from the company releasing those cards?
Also, i think that MacOSX is the first to have a fully 3d accelerated gui. The alpha transparency you mention from win2k and winxp does not necessarily need 3d acceleration (although i don't know how it is done). From what i read, the implementation of a 3d accelerated gui that Microsoft is working on would incur a heavy performance penalty for OpenGL applications.... does that seem like a "better" implementation then? |
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ruben
Guru
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 462
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Concerning Microsoft |
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| Spiritmage wrote: | | The whole idea of conforming to microsoft's "beauty" is wrong. Transparent windows psshhh who needs it. Gates only wishes he could come close to matching the beauty of e17. |
The whole idea of mimicking other OSs is wrong.
| Spiritmage wrote: | | Linux, in my opinion is definately destroying microsoft in all but 1 field... GIVEN this field is probably the most important to enticing new users to turn away from paying for an operating system when they can get a superior one for free. this is USER FRIENDLINESS!!!!! It is foolish to pretend linux is anywhere close to as user friendly as windows. |
Windows is stronger in userfriendliness and hardware support. Oh.. and rebooting! I mean, really... we're running behind... even OSX is doing better than us. Maybe emerge should provide built-in support for this. 
But seriously, if you've used Apple MacOSX, then i think you'll agree that MacOSX is even a whole lot better regarding userfriendliness. I personally don't feel at home on OSX, it just doesn't match the way i tend to use my computer, but i do think it's a really nice OS. And i do think OSX is in many areas superior to Windows. No doubt about that. Now i wonder about another thing... why compare with Longhorn? Why not compare with OSX like it is now. OSX has a fully accelerated 3d gui now. It has Spotlight now. It has Dashboard now. It has Expose now. Actually, i wonder.. tell me one area where MacOSX does not beat windows and linux. |
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mikkoloo
Apprentice
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 159
Location: .se and .nl
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:56 am Post subject: |
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games.
_________________
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AMD 64 4000+, nforce4 mobo, 2GB RAM, 200Gb SATA HDD, xfx Geforce 7900GT XE
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HP pavilion zv5470EA: AMD 64 3400+, 512 Mb RAM, 80 Gb HDD, nvidia GeForce4 440 Go 64M, Cabletron RoamAbout 802.11 DS (orinoco gold) WiFi. Creative Webcam Pro (ov511) |
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ruben
Guru
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 462
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Right.. didn't think about games. But i believe this is more of a popularity and market share issue of OSX than a technical issue. You can say the same about hardware support. I don't think there are a lot of "native" games on OSX, i believe all of them are ports. And admittedly, not performing as well on ppc hardware than on x86 hardware. But again, i don't think this is because of limitations of the platform, but rather because it is ported x86-optimised code. I'm curious whether this is gonna change when Apple uses x86 hardware. |
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mikkoloo
Apprentice
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 159
Location: .se and .nl
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ruben wrote: |
Right.. didn't think about games. But i believe this is more of a popularity and market share issue of OSX than a technical issue. You can say the same about hardware support. I don't think there are a lot of "native" games on OSX, i believe all of them are ports. And admittedly, not performing as well on ppc hardware than on x86 hardware. But again, i don't think this is because of limitations of the platform, but rather because it is ported x86-optimised code. I'm curious whether this is gonna change when Apple uses x86 hardware. |
Yea maybe, but to be honest, why go for a mac? The hardware is expensive for what you get compared to a PC and the OS is good, but at least I still feel closed in. The effects are cool, but not enough to make one change os. If I want to be closed in with a lot of user friendliness id go for windows, if i want freedom id go for linux, apple just feels so hopelessly in between, squezed. squashed...
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AMD 64 4000+, nforce4 mobo, 2GB RAM, 200Gb SATA HDD, xfx Geforce 7900GT XE
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aethyrmaster
n00b
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:20 am Post subject: |
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Just out of curiosity, seeing as the topic ATM is games, I'll put this foreward for comments. Sure, linux doesn't have that many native games, and sure, the method I'm about to mention may not be the greatest, but for now:
Cedega.
Although I have my qualms with it, what someone said on IRC I feel is very true. A growing portion of PC users are hardcore gamers, and they need speed, with low background usage. This is well-provided by linux. Cedega allows them to have those wants, and still use their Windows-only games, even if it doesn't run them natively. The whole linux market would be a better place if Cedega were free, open code. For now though, the best we can hope for is what it is:
"The evil that you use because you have to. Not because you like it, but because you like Windows less."
{/me throws 2 pennies out onto the floor} |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| aethyrmaster wrote: | Just out of curiosity, seeing as the topic ATM is games, I'll put this foreward for comments. Sure, linux doesn't have that many native games, and sure, the method I'm about to mention may not be the greatest, but for now:
Cedega.
Although I have my qualms with it, what someone said on IRC I feel is very true. A growing portion of PC users are hardcore gamers, and they need speed, with low background usage. This is well-provided by linux. Cedega allows them to have those wants, and still use their Windows-only games, even if it doesn't run them natively. The whole linux market would be a better place if Cedega were free, open code. For now though, the best we can hope for is what it is:
"The evil that you use because you have to. Not because you like it, but because you like Windows less."
{/me throws 2 pennies out onto the floor} |
The statement abt Cedega providing a low-resouce is not true. Cedega is an emulator (just like WINE in fact more so then WINE). Cedega has to take DirectX sound and GFX windows kernel-driver calls and translate them into ALSA and OpenGL Linux kernel-driver calls. This takes alot.
Equally Cedega are evil. They took the WINE code (that as BSD-licence) and closed-sourced it (have you checked the last time CVS was updated) and released it under their Aladin licence.
They have taken the good-will of ppl and twisted to their profits, their product isnt even any good. My year subscription ran out last week and I am not renewing it.
As an example they use to have BF1942 as a fully working advertising game. Punkbuster changed their cheat detection and then all Cedega users were auto-kicked (Punkbuster were not detecting for Cedega its just how it works has hack-symtoms). Transgaming would not and still hasnt fixed that problem.
They say the game works 100% (they fial to mention that it doesnt work on PB servers - ie all of them, thus the game does NOT work)
the recently stated that BF2 100% works, but it to has the same PB problems
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| Quote: | | Removed by Chiitoo |
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ruben
Guru
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 462
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| mikkoloo wrote: | | Yea maybe, but to be honest, why go for a mac? The hardware is expensive for what you get compared to a PC |
Maybe true... this is always the first argument someone gives about macs. "Macs are too expensive, and in terms of cpu power you get a lot less than a cheaper x86 clone." In a way i think many people just say that without ever having checked the price of a mac. If say, you compare the price of an Apple laptop with the price of an IBM laptop, i think the price difference will not be that big for similar ranged (low-end or high-end) laptops. Yeah, the cpu power of the Apple one will probably be lower. Honestly, i didn't buy an iBook for OSX. In the first place i wanted decent quality hardware from a known brand which gives international support and which has good customer service. For me, that's IBM and Apple. Back then, the 12" iBook was the perfect laptop for me: small, light and fully supported under linux.
| mikkoloo wrote: | | and the OS is good, but at least I still feel closed in. The effects are cool, but not enough to make one change os. If I want to be closed in with a lot of user friendliness id go for windows, if i want freedom id go for linux, apple just feels so hopelessly in between, squezed. squashed... |
Hmm... personally i'm always trying to go for linux... I don't understand why you think Apple feels hopelessly in between... i think it's superior in technology and userfriendliness to the current Windows OS. Or maybe i do... if you go for linux, then you have freedom.. but if you need to use a "closed in" thing anyways, then you're probably better off with windows as more hardware support, games, software and so on. In that case, yeah, from a practical point of view, osx is in between.
| aethyrmaster wrote: | | Cedega. |
I spent more time trying to make Wine or Cedega run games then actually running those games, with as the main reason that i simply did not get them to run. Or that they "run", in the sense that they run but not in a decent manner. Each time again, i say to myself "maybe i should try wine again, i guess it should work better now, so it might finally be able to run this or that" and each time i come to the same conclusion that it does not work. |
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Shadow Skill
Veteran
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1023
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm Cedega seems to fit three of those definitions quite well so yes it is by definition an emulator regardless of what one might normally think of an emulator as.
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Ware wa mutekinari.
Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.
"First there was nothing, so the lord gave us light. There was still nothing, but at least you could see it." |
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scruff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Nov 2003
Posts: 142
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:49 am Post subject: |
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I just happened upon this thread while reading through some other stuff and just wanted to say: I am never done being impressed with Linux! Right now I am ripping/encoding a DVD using Acidrip, watching an AVI while surfing the web at blazing speeds and chatting on Gaim. I don't even notice my CPU usage is @ 100%. Just for the hell of it, I fired up another instance of mplayer - now watching the same move, in 2 windows, one almost over and one just beginning, and never saw a hiccup. This box is also a Samba server for my SONOS system (www.sonos.com), an NFS server for my wife and kids celeron box (/home and /data reside on this box), a webserver for my website, a mailserver for my domain... Shall I continue? What can Linux do to compete with Windows? I say, what can Windows do to compete with Linux?!
After running Linux exclusively for 3 years, I am still impressed. Gotta love it
-Scruff
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Q-collective
Advocate
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 2071
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| scruff wrote: | I just happened upon this thread while reading through some other stuff and just wanted to say: I am never done being impressed with Linux! Right now I am ripping/encoding a DVD using Acidrip, watching an AVI while surfing the web at blazing speeds and chatting on Gaim. I don't even notice my CPU usage is @ 100%. Just for the hell of it, I fired up another instance of mplayer - now watching the same move, in 2 windows, one almost over and one just beginning, and never saw a hiccup. This box is also a Samba server for my SONOS system (www.sonos.com), an NFS server for my wife and kids celeron box (/home and /data reside on this box), a webserver for my website, a mailserver for my domain... Shall I continue? What can Linux do to compete with Windows? I say, what can Windows do to compete with Linux?!
After running Linux exclusively for 3 years, I am still impressed. Gotta love it
-Scruff |
Wow, I'm impressed with acidrip, much more options then Thoggen but still a lot more simple UI then dvd::rip
Just too bad it doesn't do ogg vorbis/flac/theora though  |
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