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sda
n00b
Joined: 05 May 2002
Posts: 18
Location: Toronto
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 Posted: Sun May 26, 2002 3:45 am Post subject: |
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[quote="klieber"] | CMitchell wrote: | | what applications would be recommended to do this with? QMail? Courier? Exim? |
Sendmail doesn't seem to have too many fans, though it has a huge installed base...
Oh I disagree - Since Gentoo seems to be geared towards network professionals, I can't understand why there isn't an emerge pkg of Sendmail - it's the standard. I'm presently looking for this in Gentoo - would prefer pkg's like this be included before we worry about the latest KDE.
I mean really is this distro for networks or what? Sendmail is going to be the package that determines whether or not we install this distro on our work servers. If we install, the boss can be talked into contributing to Gentoo. Something to think about guys, I'm sure there are others in the same boat.
Is Sendmail coming for Gentoo? |
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klieber
Bodhisattva
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Posts: 3657
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2002 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| sda wrote: | | Since Gentoo seems to be geared towards network professionals, I can't understand why there isn't an emerge pkg of Sendmail - it's the standard. |
Agreed -- Sendmail is the standard, but that doesn't make it a good program. (*cough* windows *cough*) 
| sda wrote: | | Is Sendmail coming for Gentoo? |
I haven't heard about anyone working on an ebuild, so it looks like Sendmail will come as soon as someone takes up the cause. While I personally dislike sendmail, I'm sure there are others out there like yourself who like it. Perhaps some Sendmail fans could get together and write an ebuild for Sendmail.
--kurt
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sda
n00b
Joined: 05 May 2002
Posts: 18
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2002 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| sda wrote: | | Is Sendmail coming for Gentoo? |
I haven't heard about anyone working on an ebuild, so it looks like Sendmail will come as soon as someone takes up the cause. While I personally dislike sendmail, I'm sure there are others out there like yourself who like it. Perhaps some Sendmail fans could get together and write an ebuild for Sendmail.
--kurt[/quote]
Well it seems bias is coming through. 
It is good - not just my opinion but that of it's installed base. True it's an huge application, but having used the others and having used Sendmail for 12 years, I know it inside and out. I prefer it. Again - becasue Gentoo is geared for network professionals, it simply is inexcusable that it doesn't offer an ebuild for Sendmail. It is the defacto standard and as such Gentoo isn't going to be taken seriously by this targeted market until such is done so. Thats my opinion. I'm too busy to make an emerge, that's why I wish the package. If Gentoo wants monetary support from it's target market, then it needs to provide more in the way of what that market needs - and that's not pretty GUI's. Please, Please, put aside your bias and bring it to the maintainers attention. That's all I ask - Thank-you. |
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klieber
Bodhisattva
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Posts: 3657
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2002 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| sda wrote: | | Again - becasue Gentoo is geared for network professionals |
You keep stating this as fact, yet it does not match with my understanding of Gentoo. According to the web site, Gentoo is targeted at "linux power users". Nothing more, nothing less. In fact, up until now, it hasn't even been targeted for server use, period. (Recently, drobbins has stated that they intend to start focusing on servers, however)
| sda wrote: | | Please, Please, put aside your bias and bring it to the maintainers attention. |
My bias has no bearing on whether or not sendmail gets included in Gentoo. Sendmail will get included when enough folks who care about it make an effort to create an ebuild for it. That's one of the beauties of open source development -- you have the source and can do with it what you please/need. (within the constraints of the particular source license, of course)
I understand you may not have enough time to create the ebuild by yourself. You might consider filing a request on bugs.gentoo.org as well as trying to at least organize a group of like-minded sendmail fans willing to contribute time to such an endeavor. (or at least lobby the Gentoo dev team for sendmail support)
Side note: people often get frustrated when I respond with suggestions like this because they feel I'm telling them to buzz off and do it themselves. That's simply not the case -- the fact is, no one is going to do anything unless they view it as a priority. That means someone needs to champion the cause and be willing to put in the time and effort necessary to see it through to completion. So, please understand that, while you may feel strongly that a particular program should be included in Gentoo, someone (be it you or someone else) will have to be willing to take up that cause in order for anything to actually get done about it.
--kurt
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klieber
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Joined: 17 Apr 2002
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2002 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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breaking out the last few posts and creating a separate thread in Gentoo suggestions.
--kurt
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sda
n00b
Joined: 05 May 2002
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Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2002 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| klieber wrote: | | sda wrote: | | Again - becasue Gentoo is geared for network professionals |
You keep stating this as fact, yet it does not match with my understanding of Gentoo. According to the web site, Gentoo is targeted at "linux power users". Nothing more, nothing less. In fact, up until now, it hasn't even been targeted for server use, period. (Recently, drobbins has stated that they intend to start focusing on servers, however)
--kurt |
<rant>
Yep that's what I'm talking about I know it's being targeted towards server use, it's the only way for your distro to make $ as per D Robbins news release. So I again repeat, please make the "powers that be" aware of this. Sendmail should be a priority before more eye candy as in GNOME or KDE is added if you all wish this fine distro to be a force in the server market. My company will glady pay/donate to a worthy cause, but not until priorities are realized here. What's important the latest KDE or a full functional server suite? I mean lets get real here.
</rant>
Please excuse my views if you don't agree - A GUI is not important to me or my needs.
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handsomepete
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Joined: 21 Apr 2002
Posts: 548
Location: Kansas City, MO
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2002 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Correct me if I'm wrong (because I could very well be), but it seems to me that klieber doesn't have any above-average influential ties to the Gentoo dev team. I thought this forum started out as an unofficial forum and then was migrated to become the official forum (i.e. this is not populated by the developers), but as far as I can tell, you can make the notion to include sendmail known just as easily as he can.
And just for the sake of interjecting my opinion...
The only reason sendmail remains an industry standard is because everyone keeps including it as the default in their distros simply because it has been the industry standard in the past. No distros seem willing to take the step to go to something (sorry for saying it) simpler. Most people who haven't spent an extraordinary amount of time with sendmail will admit to the fact that its syntax is confusing at best - much less so with m4 but still. The only reason I personally would want it included would be for entertainment, but I've set it up from source before and I've actually found that much easier to do than any preconfigured version because I'm forced to go through the directions step by step. I mean, if sendmail is the *only* thing keeping you from installing gentoo on some servers, why not just install it yourself?
Besides, I'm hooked on qmail now.
If you really want to do this thing, I'd be willing to contribute my time to an ebuild.. if anything just to learn how they work. Anyone else?
Not trying to start a mail program holy war, by the way, I'm just talkin'... sorry about the length. |
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sda
n00b
Joined: 05 May 2002
Posts: 18
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2002 8:48 pm Post subject: Sendmail for Gentoo |
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handsome pete:
No problem - the only reason why we're not going to install it without sendmail is that sendmail is simply the most powerful there is for an enterprise with thousands of users. Nuff said. I don't know anybody using any of the other available packages in mission critical installations with reliable sucess.
As I said up the thread - I've used it for almost 8 years - I'm familiar with it and no, I do not wish to compile it myself. =)
I don't need it preconfigured to work, just preconfigured to install with minimal fuss. For others who might be daunted to configure it, there is a simple to use pearl script called 'install-sendmail' makes it as easy if not easier than the other e-mail packages to setup. It's available from Freshmeat.
In terms of the moderator having influence - I'm simply asking anybody and everybody, to encourage the developers to do a package for Gentoo of Sendmail. I'm going to do it again, I"ve asked in the developers forum as well. I'm not the only one wanting this - a few others have requested as well. Never even received a response, except here from the moderator, which I appreciate.
//cheers |
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klieber
Bodhisattva
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Posts: 3657
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2002 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| sda wrote: | | So I again repeat, please make the "powers that be" aware of this. |
OK, but I don't agree with your opinions. I don't think sendmail is crucial to the success of Gentoo, so I'm not the right person to champion the cause. That's not to say I'm right or you're wrong -- merely that we feel differently about the importance of sendmail
As handsomepete said, I certainly don't affect what does/doesn't make it into Gentoo. That's up to drobbins and the core dev team.
Which brings me back to my original point -- someone needs to become the sendmail champion and take up the cause to get it included. You say your company is willing to donate money -- how about if they donate a few hours of developer's time to create an ebuild for sendmail? Then, you get what you want/need and Gentoo, as a whole, is a better product. It's a win-win for everyone.
You can rant until the cows come home, but that isn't going to help sendmail get into Gentoo any quicker.
BTW, qmail has been successfully run in several enterprise environments with great success. Last I checked, Yahoo!Mail was running on it, as were Critical Path, PayPal, and the old USWest.net network. Not trying to get into a MTA flamewar -- fact is that sendmail still controls two thirds of the mail traffic out there. Just pointing out that there are other viable alternatives.
--kurt
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tminos
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Joined: 10 Apr 2002
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 4:22 am Post subject: |
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Personally, I find it a bad idea.
One of the things I liked about Gentoo is that it allows you to choose your own programs for things that you want instead of forcing you to use other things (and then end up circumventing them later on to use what you want)
While FreeBSD is nice - installing other MTA's like QMail, Exim, Courier, or others becomes a slightly larger pain because you have to disable sendmail and replace it with shell scripts, symlinks, and alter config files made for programs made soley to deal with this.
Taken from the FreeBSD 4.5 man page on 'mailwrapper' --
| Quote: |
The entire reason this program exists is a crock. Instead, a command for
how to submit mail should be standardized, and all the "behave differ-
ently if invoked with a different name" behavior of things like mailq(1)
should go away.
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Take heed of this - keep Gentoo pure by default, dont force people into things that may not like - thats one of the things I liked so much about it (being able to use metalog from the start? Woohoo!) |
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sda
n00b
Joined: 05 May 2002
Posts: 18
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 5:12 am Post subject: |
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[
Take heed of this - keep Gentoo pure by default, dont force people into things that may not like - thats one of the things I liked so much about it (being able to use metalog from the start? Woohoo!)[/quote]
That's silly - it should be about choice - all the major MTA's should be included and Sendmail is "the" major one. It's about choice, use which you want, but allow me to use what I wish as well by providing an emerge of all three.
It has nothing to do with being "pure". |
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klieber
Bodhisattva
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Posts: 3657
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| sda wrote: | | but allow me to use what I wish as well by providing an emerge of all three. |
Sigh...no one is preventing you from using sendmail. Someone who cares enough about sendmail needs to make an ebuild. That's it -- pure and simple.
--kurt
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