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sonixx
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Joined: 03 Sep 2005
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 Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:59 am Post subject: ~x86.....? |
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I know what x86 is and I know what x86 apps or programs are, but what the hell is ~x86 is.....?
Can some one please tell me.....
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i92guboj
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Joined: 30 Nov 2004
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Location: Córdoba (Spain)
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:05 am Post subject: |
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When the prefix '~' is added to an architecture name it means 'unstable'. So, you, by default are using the 'x86' arch (supposing that x86 is the right architecture for you).
You can override that and run a unstable system by putting
| Code: |
ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86"
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Into your make.conf, with that you tell gentoo to accept all the packages (and versions of the packages) that are marked as '~x86', that translated would be something like "accept all the packages that are marked as unstable in the x86 branch of Gentoo". This is, of course, DISCOURAGED unless you know what you are doing. 
There is a way to accept some unstable packages if you need them (because you need a new version with a new feature or you need a package that is marked as unstable). To do that for only one package, add a line for it into /etc/portage/package.keywords, like this:
Of course, change the package, version and architecture to match yours. This way you can add some unstable packages or test new feature, while still running into a stable system.
EDIT'ed to modify a universal statement.
Last edited by i92guboj on Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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omp
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:11 am Post subject: |
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To summarize what the person above me just said, it lets you get unstable packages. (packages that have not yet been fully tested)
| 6thpink wrote: | | This is, of course, HIGHLY DISCOURAGED AND NOT SUPPORTED, and should never be done. |
It might be discouraged, but you shouldn't say it should never be done. I have ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~amd64" in my make.conf and everything is just fine.
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djpenguin
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:41 am Post subject: |
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Incorrect.
You THINK your system is just fine. I'll bet you have some pretty crazy CFLAGS settings too. In all likelyhood your system is full of flawed and broken code produced by a compiler being 'optimised' too much. You may not see it now, but you will in time.
Using ~arch is not reccomended unless you are a fan of chasing down esoteric bugs caused by interactions between multiple testing/development releases of various programs. A few unstable packages here and there is no biggie, with the rest of the system generally stable, any bugs will be easy to isolate and solve. If you've got all ~ pacakges compiled by your "-O9 -march -pipe -mtune -funroll-loops -ffast-math -falign-functions etc. etc. etc." gcc, good luck even finding someone willing to help you work the inevitable problems. |
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Plastic
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Joined: 24 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| djpenguin wrote: | Incorrect.
You THINK your system is just fine. I'll bet you have some pretty crazy CFLAGS settings too. In all likelyhood your system is full of flawed and broken code produced by a compiler being 'optimised' too much. You may not see it now, but you will in time.
Using ~arch is not reccomended unless you are a fan of chasing down esoteric bugs caused by interactions between multiple testing/development releases of various programs. A few unstable packages here and there is no biggie, with the rest of the system generally stable, any bugs will be easy to isolate and solve. If you've got all ~ pacakges compiled by your "-O9 -march -pipe -mtune -funroll-loops -ffast-math -falign-functions etc. etc. etc." gcc, good luck even finding someone willing to help you work the inevitable problems. |
ZOMG! By setting ACCEPT_KEYWORDS=~x86 in make.conf I have triggered the apocalypse! /sbin/init segfaults and made my processor explode! No, seriousely, the word unstable is misleading here. A more suitable term would be "untested". I run ~x86 with sane CFLAGS. I don't see how my system is "full of flawed and broken code" if everything works the way it's supposed to. I have found that ~x86 is for the most part, stable. It is rare that I find a package that will not run. Every so often, there is a package that won't compile, but that is usually easily fixed. There are almost always a couple of these when I emerge -uDv world. So, if you want the latest packages and are prepared to put some time into maintinence and are not using the system for mission critical stuff, ~x86 could work for you. |
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omp
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:41 am Post subject: |
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My CFLAGS are actually very simple. Don't jump to conclusions just because I have ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~amd64" in my /etc/make.conf
| Code: | # These settings were set by the catalyst build script that automatically built this stage
# Please consult /etc/make.conf.example for a more detailed example
CFLAGS="-march=k8 -pipe -O2"
CHOST="x86_64-pc-linux-gnu"
CXXFLAGS="${CFLAGS}"
MAKEOPTS="-j2"
ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~amd64"
GENTOO_MIRRORS="http://mirror.datapipe.net/gentoo"
SYNC="rsync://rsync.us.gentoo.org/gentoo-portage"
PORTDIR_OVERLAY="/usr/local/portage"
USE="alsa cdr dvd dvdr firefox gtk gtk2 nptl nptlonly ogg oggvorbis truetype unicode vorbis win32codecs xinerama -eds -esd -gnome -java -kde -qt" |
[EDIT] What I'm trying to say is, you shouldn't write a post complaining about how I probably have over optimized CFLAGS and it is ruining my system, when you aren't sure what my CFLAGS are. In this case, you are the incorrect one.
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Genone
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| djpenguin wrote: | Incorrect.
You THINK your system is just fine. I'll bet you have some pretty crazy CFLAGS settings too. In all likelyhood your system is full of flawed and broken code produced by a compiler being 'optimised' too much. You may not see it now, but you will in time. |
CFLAGS and ACCEPT_KEYWORDS settings are completely unrelated (both technically and socially). Yes, using ~arch you'll more often hit problems than with just arch, but it isn't as bad as some people describe it if you have some technical knowledge and know how to deal with problems in general. |
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d4rk74m4
Arch/Herd Tester
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| djpenguin wrote: | Incorrect.
You THINK your system is just fine. I'll bet you have some pretty crazy CFLAGS settings too. In all likelyhood your system is full of flawed and broken code produced by a compiler being 'optimised' too much. You may not see it now, but you will in time.
Using ~arch is not reccomended unless you are a fan of chasing down esoteric bugs caused by interactions between multiple testing/development releases of various programs. A few unstable packages here and there is no biggie, with the rest of the system generally stable, any bugs will be easy to isolate and solve. If you've got all ~ pacakges compiled by your "-O9 -march -pipe -mtune -funroll-loops -ffast-math -falign-functions etc. etc. etc." gcc, good luck even finding someone willing to help you work the inevitable problems. |
A big WTF from me. How do you even jump to the conclusion that just because someone likes to run TESTING packages is the stereotypical Gentoo Ricer(tm). ~arch for the most part means that the software is classed as stable by the upstream devs, but not the Gentoo packaging of it.
Myself, I use ~amd64, for reference beforw you decide to call me a ricer, my CFLAGS are "-march=athlon64 -O2 -pipe". Why do I use ~amd64? It's because I like to use the latest software from upstream in a lot of cases, and if I find a problem I like to file bug reports and such to help stabalise a package. Without people using ~arch you'd never have arch. |
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i92guboj
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Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 10315
Location: Córdoba (Spain)
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| omp wrote: | To summarize what the person above me just said, it lets you get unstable packages. (packages that have not yet been fully tested)
| 6thpink wrote: | | This is, of course, HIGHLY DISCOURAGED AND NOT SUPPORTED, and should never be done. |
It might be discouraged, but you shouldn't say it should never be done. I have ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~amd64" in my make.conf and everything is just fine. |
As I said, that is unsupported, so, if something goes wrong, you are on your own. There is a proper way to put unstable stuff into the system, and it is thru the correct usage of package.unmask and package.keywords, in any case NEVER EVER say to a newcomer that "all is fine" if you are using that, because the handbook and the developers advise not to do it that way.
You are, of course, free to do it that way if you fully understand all the implications, but don't promote the usage of ACCEPT_KEYWORDS if a newcomer asks. Just wanted to clarify.  |
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Genone
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| 6thpink wrote: | | omp wrote: | To summarize what the person above me just said, it lets you get unstable packages. (packages that have not yet been fully tested)
| 6thpink wrote: | | This is, of course, HIGHLY DISCOURAGED AND NOT SUPPORTED, and should never be done. |
It might be discouraged, but you shouldn't say it should never be done. I have ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~amd64" in my make.conf and everything is just fine. |
As I said, that is unsupported, so, if something goes wrong, you are on your own. There is a proper way to put unstable stuff into the system, and it is thru the correct usage of package.unmask and package.keywords, in any case NEVER EVER say to a newcomer that "all is fine" if you are using that, because the handbook and the developers advise not to do it that way.
You are, of course, free to do it that way if you fully understand all the implications, but don't promote the usage of ACCEPT_KEYWORDS if a newcomer asks. Just wanted to clarify. |
There is a huge difference between setting ACCEPT_KEYWORDS in make.conf and on the commandline, I think you're confusing these two (or haven't read the post). |
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i92guboj
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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I read the post, and he tells us about puting ACCEPT_KEYWORDS into make.conf, which I think is a very big error unless you know what you are doing. Please, tell me if im missing something.
Anyway, my premisse of not promoting the usage of ACCEPT_KEYWORDS for newbies is valid also for command line. None should encourage the use of ACCEPT_KEYWORDS in any form for any other person that is asking about the "valid way" to manage portage. If you are knowleadgeable enough to argue with me about this then you probably can manage the keywords as well as me, and probably even better so you can use your own rules.
That is at least my opinion, of course, I could be wrong. |
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omp
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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I know it is discouraged, but the truth is that not too many things go wrong. Every once in a while I come across a package that won't compile or something like that and either it's easy to fix, or I just temporarily mask the newer version until it is fixed.
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omp
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| d4rk74m4 wrote: | | my CFLAGS are "-march=athlon64 -O2 -pipe" |
Shouldn't it be -march=k8 if you are using an athlon 64 processor.
| Gentoo Handbook (part 1 chapter 5) wrote: | | AMD64 users who want to use a native 64 bit system should use -march=k8 |
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codergeek42
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| omp wrote: | | d4rk74m4 wrote: | | my CFLAGS are "-march=athlon64 -O2 -pipe" |
Shouldn't it be -march=k8 if you are using an athlon 64 processor.
| Gentoo Handbook (part 1 chapter 5) wrote: | | AMD64 users who want to use a native 64 bit system should use -march=k8 |
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If I'm not mistaken, -march=k8 and -march=athlon64 are synonymous.
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omp
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| codergeek42 wrote: | | If I'm not mistaken, -march=k8 and -march=athlon64 are synonymous. |
I guess so, I just know that the gentoo handbook says -march=k8
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codergeek42
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| omp wrote: | | codergeek42 wrote: | | If I'm not mistaken, -march=k8 and -march=athlon64 are synonymous. |
I guess so, I just know that the gentoo handbook says -march=k8 |
So use k8. The handbook kicks butt. 
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i92guboj
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| Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Gcc man page kicks all
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k8, opteron, athlon64, athlon-fx
AMD K8 core based CPUs with x86-64 instruction set support.
(This supersets MMX, SSE, SSE2, 3dNOW!, enhanced 3dNOW! and
64-bit instruction set extensions.)
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Murri
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Posts: 2
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:31 pm Post subject: Wow! |
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| Someone makes a simple question about what is ~x86 and look what kind of war it created! Impressive ^^ |
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Genone
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| 6thpink wrote: | | I read the post, and he tells us about puting ACCEPT_KEYWORDS into make.conf, which I think is a very big error unless you know what you are doing. Please, tell me if im missing something. |
Well, in your original post you don't make any such relation, but the absolute statements "this is unsupported" (in caps and color, also unsupported by whom?) and "should never be done". There wouldn't have been such a discussion if for example you've said "don't do this unless you exactly know what you're doing." |
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i92guboj
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Location: Córdoba (Spain)
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: ~x86.....? |
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| Genone wrote: | | 6thpink wrote: | | I read the post, and he tells us about puting ACCEPT_KEYWORDS into make.conf, which I think is a very big error unless you know what you are doing. Please, tell me if im missing something. |
Well, in your original post you don't make any such relation, but the absolute statements "this is unsupported" (in caps and color, also unsupported by whom?) and "should never be done". There wouldn't have been such a discussion if for example you've said "don't do this unless you exactly know what you're doing." |
I did not express myself on the more convenient manner. Maybe a "dont do this unless you know what you are doing, this may break some packages" would've been more accurate. Sorry for that. Anyway, lets drop this, because is totally offtopic and I dont think that it will help in any way to the poster of this thread. I will conveniently edit the post above so if someone reads it will not start another serie of replys. Thanks for the corrections.  |
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yngwin
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Gentoo handbook wrote: | | ~arch keyword means that the application is not tested sufficiently to be put in the stable branch |
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hielvc
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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One bigee that Im suprised at A hugh nono "KEYWORDS="~x86" emerge .... WIll break your system. Say you emerge xorg useing comand line KEYJWORDS. later you emerge world -uD. Well portage doesnt remeber that it was built with ~x86 so it will down grade and any thing built against it stands a good chance of breaking . So use /etc/portage/package.keywords
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omp
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| hielvc wrote: | | One bigee that Im suprised at A hugh nono "KEYWORDS="~x86" emerge .... WIll break your system. Say you emerge xorg useing comand line KEYJWORDS. later you emerge world -uD. Well portage doesnt remeber that it was built with ~x86 so it will down grade and any thing built against it stands a good chance of breaking . So use /etc/portage/package.keywords |
KEYWORDS should be ACCEPT_KEYWORDS and the only time you should use it is when you are pretending an emerge (emerge -p).
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hielvc
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omp
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| hielvc wrote: | | Damn smart noobs |
haha 
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